For the Data Junky, nerd folks
Sunny_Bunny_
Posts: 7,140 Member
I've been testing blood glucose upon waking, before meals and 1 and 2 hours after meals and then today after lifting while still fasted just for kicks. Totally normal. Stop looking at me like that.
Anyway, I then started searching for information about what blood sugar might be considered normal, optimal, whatever for a long term keto person like myself. Mostly because I guess I'm surprised that my blood sugars are consistently 80's and 90's and I'm surprised it never seems to go lower at any point. I don't know why I think that. Just do. Not that I believe it matters or anything. I don't. Just curiosity. That's all.
So I found this info that I found to be very interesting and it discusses the topic of a Glucose Ketone Index and how it may show your body's level of fat adaptation. I know, that's a wishy washy subject because it's like, how do you know, what the hell does it even mean anyway? Right?
Well, using this the GKI as a source, you could basically see how well your body is adapting, in this way meaning, truly depending on ketones and having low insulin levels even if your blood glucose isn't those super low numbers you hear some people talking about. Because blood sugar isn't really an indicator of your insulin production. But this GKI can clue you in on your insulin production. Kinda cool huh!
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/07/20/the-glucose-ketone-relationship/
So, here's the way it's calculated.
You take a BG reading in mmol/L or convert the mg/dL reading by dividing it by 18.
Then you take a blood ketone reading. Must be a blood reading. And divide the glucose by the ketones.
Then you have your GKI reading.
At first this article suggests anything 10 or under is good for an average healthy person and anything under 2 is the target for a cancer patient or epileptic and other therapeutic applications. The lower the better for them.
He eventually says targeting 6 or less for health may be best but I don't recall why...
Anyway, I had one Ketone strip left and since I'm still fasted after my workout, I thought this might be an awesome time to determine my GKI.
BG was 80mg/dL or 4.4 and ketones were 1.5 for a GKI of 2.9.
Pretty good indicator that my insulin production is very low if I understand this correctly. Of course, this is just true in this moment and gathering more data, especially my non fasted data would be very interesting. I would like to know more of an average over time. That would be very interesting to me.
Anyway, I'm just geeking out today and thought I'd share.
Now I need to go order more test strips!
Anyway, I then started searching for information about what blood sugar might be considered normal, optimal, whatever for a long term keto person like myself. Mostly because I guess I'm surprised that my blood sugars are consistently 80's and 90's and I'm surprised it never seems to go lower at any point. I don't know why I think that. Just do. Not that I believe it matters or anything. I don't. Just curiosity. That's all.
So I found this info that I found to be very interesting and it discusses the topic of a Glucose Ketone Index and how it may show your body's level of fat adaptation. I know, that's a wishy washy subject because it's like, how do you know, what the hell does it even mean anyway? Right?
Well, using this the GKI as a source, you could basically see how well your body is adapting, in this way meaning, truly depending on ketones and having low insulin levels even if your blood glucose isn't those super low numbers you hear some people talking about. Because blood sugar isn't really an indicator of your insulin production. But this GKI can clue you in on your insulin production. Kinda cool huh!
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/07/20/the-glucose-ketone-relationship/
So, here's the way it's calculated.
You take a BG reading in mmol/L or convert the mg/dL reading by dividing it by 18.
Then you take a blood ketone reading. Must be a blood reading. And divide the glucose by the ketones.
Then you have your GKI reading.
At first this article suggests anything 10 or under is good for an average healthy person and anything under 2 is the target for a cancer patient or epileptic and other therapeutic applications. The lower the better for them.
He eventually says targeting 6 or less for health may be best but I don't recall why...
Anyway, I had one Ketone strip left and since I'm still fasted after my workout, I thought this might be an awesome time to determine my GKI.
BG was 80mg/dL or 4.4 and ketones were 1.5 for a GKI of 2.9.
Pretty good indicator that my insulin production is very low if I understand this correctly. Of course, this is just true in this moment and gathering more data, especially my non fasted data would be very interesting. I would like to know more of an average over time. That would be very interesting to me.
Anyway, I'm just geeking out today and thought I'd share.
Now I need to go order more test strips!
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Replies
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**brain explodes trying to understand math** ....
**gives up and goes back to being a nerd, instead of a geek, playing video games...**
But anyhoo! That's pretty awesome. Especially glucose testing after lifting... That's totally normal...
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@Sunny_Bunny_ that's awesome and seems pretty easy to calculate. Are you blood glucose and blood ketone measurement tools the same device or are they two separate devices. I have only ever measure my ketones with ketostix so not super reliable and does not output a number of any kind. Do tools that read your blood hurt? I've never had any problems with getting shots or anything but I'm not sure about pricking myself daily.0
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did you read the brain cancer story that was in that article...totally amazing2
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http://www.burnfatnotsugar.com/IF.pdf
This is an excellent article for those interested in Intermittent Fasting-found within the link in @Sunny_Bunny_ original post. Thanks @Sunny_Bunny_3 -
Cool! I love geeking out on this stuff. I'm going to find out my GKI number.1
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@Sunny_Bunny_ that's awesome and seems pretty easy to calculate. Are you blood glucose and blood ketone measurement tools the same device or are they two separate devices. I have only ever measure my ketones with ketostix so not super reliable and does not output a number of any kind. Do tools that read your blood hurt? I've never had any problems with getting shots or anything but I'm not sure about pricking myself daily.
Technically mine are not the same device but only because I don't have the glucose test strips that work with that meter. It is capable of testing both. Just have to buy both strips. My daughter is T1D so I'm just using her glucose strips since she gets so many.
This is a link to get a free meter (same as mine) with the purchase of test strips.
https://storefront.novacares.com/storefront/specials.html
Probably only for certain countries or even US only. I have no idea. Check it out.
It does slightly hurt but it's just a tiny prick. You have to do it off to the side of your finger. Not directly on the tip of your finger and not directly in the center. You have fewer nerve endings there and sometimes I can't feel it hardly at all.
I won't let a tiny and incredibly short duration of discomfort stop me. Mostly because I feel like if my daughter can test 5-10 times a day, or more, every day for the rest of her life then I can suck it up and do it occasionally and not whine about it. Sorry, this is a touchy subject.
When she was first diagnosed, she would cry and cry when it was time to test or take a shot and her fingers were so sore and bruised but she had to keep poking them. Many times I would agree to test with her just so she knew I understood how it felt. I wouldn't test nearly as much as her so I would always test the same spot on the same finger so I was experiencing the soreness so that I could understand her reluctance and be as sensitive as possible. So I get a little cranky when I hear "OMG! I could NEVER poke myself even once or twice a day". I promise you that you can. And it's awesome that you can do it by choice.
Anyway, I've poked myself about 15 times over the last 36 hours or so. Some of them because I couldn't get any blood to come out! I guess I'm not a bleeder! And I'm using different spots and have zero soreness so far. Once, I chose a spot too centered and it was a doozy, but it only hurt for like a minute. No biggie.1 -
tcunbeliever wrote: »did you read the brain cancer story that was in that article...totally amazinghttp://www.burnfatnotsugar.com/IF.pdf
This is an excellent article for those interested in Intermittent Fasting-found within the link in @Sunny_Bunny_ original post. Thanks @Sunny_Bunny_
I haven't checked them out yet. Definitely will do!Cool! I love geeking out on this stuff. I'm going to find out my GKI number.
Let us know what you get.
I'm going to test blood sugar with some different foods and will use urine ketone as a reference to ketosis afterward because I'm out of blood test strips and because I'm just curious and don't want to pay $2 per test for curiosities sake. But I am going to order some more strips soon just so I can check different times of day, non fasted and such to see if I can figure out a basic idea of my average. For no reason other than I just want to know.
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So after my 80 BG I ate 2 beef patties with cheese and mayo and a small piece of chicken breast and tested at 83 one hour later. No surprise there.
Then I decided to have some coconut flakes and probably about 12 almonds just to see what happened and an hour after that I tested at 92 but had large ketones on the urine test.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »So after my 80 BG I ate 2 beef patties with cheese and mayo and a small piece of chicken breast and tested at 83 one hour later. No surprise there.
Then I decided to have some coconut flakes and probably about 12 almonds just to see what happened and an hour after that I tested at 92 but had large ketones on the urine test.
thank you for being a guinea pig in the name of Keto! lol1 -
http://www.burnfatnotsugar.com/IF.pdf
This is an excellent article for those interested in Intermittent Fasting-found within the link in @Sunny_Bunny_ original post. Thanks @Sunny_Bunny_
That was a very good explanation of fasting of all kinds. I think I'll try my coffee without my MCT oil tomorrow for that true fasted state instead of the fat fasted work around I've always done. Don't know if I can keep that up since I use the mct as a supplement for ADHD, but who knows. Maybe I can just move it to a late afternoon dose instead.
It has made me want to tweek my fasting game. Lol1 -
You are the quintessential mom. I remember how hard it was to do a one-time on my daughter. All we needed was one prick for a mail order blood type test.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »-snip-
This is a link to get a free meter (same as mine) with the purchase of test strips.
https://storefront.novacares.com/storefront/specials.html
Probably only for certain countries or even US only. I have no idea. Check it out.
It does slightly hurt but it's just a tiny prick. You have to do it off to the side of your finger. Not directly on the tip of your finger and not directly in the center. You have fewer nerve endings there and sometimes I can't feel it hardly at all.
I won't let a tiny and incredibly short duration of discomfort stop me. Mostly because I feel like if my daughter can test 5-10 times a day, or more, every day for the rest of her life then I can suck it up and do it occasionally and not whine about it. Sorry, this is a touchy subject. When she was first diagnosed, she would cry and cry when it was time to test or take a shot and her fingers were so sore and bruised but she had to keep poking them. Many times I would agree to test with her just so she knew I understood how it felt. I wouldn't test nearly as much as her so I would always test the same spot on the same finger so I was experiencing the soreness so that I could understand her reluctance and be as sensitive as possible. So I get a little cranky when I hear "OMG! I could NEVER poke myself even once or twice a day". I promise you that you can. And it's awesome that you can do it by choice.
Anyway, I've poked myself about 15 times over the last 36 hours or so. Some of them because I couldn't get any blood to come out! I guess I'm not a bleeder! And I'm using different spots and have zero soreness so far. Once, I chose a spot too centered and it was a doozy, but it only hurt for like a minute. No biggie.
Anyway, thanks for the link to the offer of the free meter. I'm wondering if I should go for it. It might be useful. I'm not diabetic, but I tend to go into metabolic syndrome just as easily as looking at a box of donuts. Some experts think that diabetes causes obesity, not the other way around.
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Love love love! I'm going to start reading these articles now 0
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http://www.burnfatnotsugar.com/IF.pdf
This is an excellent article for those interested in Intermittent Fasting-found within the link in @Sunny_Bunny_ original post. Thanks @Sunny_Bunny_
Great article, and I like the keto food pyramid at the bottom. I thought I was fasting every day until 11am but turns out adding HWC to my coffee in the AM ruins the fast. It's 100 calories for 2tbsps. Darn it. I'll definitely try fasting tonight/tomorrow and I'll have a nice big brunch!
I do have an odd problem though.. when fasting in the AM, I'm a little hungry but I want to power through it and wait until lunch, or at least 11am. The only problem is I work in a very quiet office so everyone can hear my tummy complaining and it's kind of embarrassing. Any tips on keeping tummy grumbling down and getting into IF overall?0 -
OMG I thought I was the only one who does BG finger sticks just to see how I'm responding to different foods. That was one of the things I never understood being diabetic was how do you know how the meal affected you if you only take a before reading and not an after reading. I've done days of full testing before and after meals just to see how my body is responding. I am out of town for the weekend and forgot to pack the meter and test strips, but you can bet I'll be testing the first chance I get. Thanks for the info ... Love it!1
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Try seltzer water. I like to drink it when I'm in that state. But instead of tummy noises, you might have another noise, like BUUUURRRRP.-snip-
I do have an odd problem though.. when fasting in the AM, I'm a little hungry but I want to power through it and wait until lunch, or at least 11am. The only problem is I work in a very quiet office so everyone can hear my tummy complaining and it's kind of embarrassing. Any tips on keeping tummy grumbling down and getting into IF overall?
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Have you seen http://www.DiabetesWarrior.net @MiamiDawn? His blog is like one long-running BG science experiment with intermittent "jabs" at the ADA.2
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OMG I thought I was the only one who does BG finger sticks just to see how I'm responding to different foods. That was one of the things I never understood being diabetic was how do you know how the meal affected you if you only take a before reading and not an after reading. I've done days of full testing before and after meals just to see how my body is responding. I am out of town for the weekend and forgot to pack the meter and test strips, but you can bet I'll be testing the first chance I get. Thanks for the info ... Love it!
Since I kept forgetting my meter, I purchased an extra (One Touch Mini, cheap on Amazon) to keep in my purse.0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
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@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
I agree with @Sunny_Bunny the GKI is as good as it gets ATM as a proxy for insulin levels. A warning of caution, though: We still don't know exactly what and to which degree ketones get higher for the INDIVIDUAL. We only know that eating a very lowcarb, exercise and fasting elevates ketones to different degrees. According to some lectures I've watched, some people have difficulty raising their ketone levels above 0.5 mmol, while others have no problem getting into 1-3 range. Some people report anecdotally (2ketodudes) that the only variables that significantly raise BHB are exercise or fasting.
So I would only use the GKI as an indication of insulin levels. There's enough keto anxiety floating around already. Another point is that any exogenous ketones such as MCT or the ketone esters and salts will artificially raise ketones, but will obscure any attempts at trying to correlate GKI with insulin.
I still think that eating a diet according to Kendall's insulin index is probably the easiest way for many people. Exercise and fasting are add-ons.
The ONE thing that would benefit all of the things we want to improve is quality of sleep...and down the rabbit hole we go...
Edit: If you want to tryout the GKI protocol, at least establish a baseline of "normal" ketone blood levels with your current WOE and living for a minimum of 3 weeks. THEN, you can start experimenting and testing the effects of different foods, volume, frequency, exercise and fasting... or you won't know the way your compass is heading .0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ thank you for the link! Going to order one asap! Ive been looking into ordering a new meter!0
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@Sunny_Bunny_
Quick question. The GKI is the amount of insulin floating around right? The lower the better right?
I divided my BG of 4.7 with ketones 0.7 = 6.7
Is this high? What are the ranges?0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
So true. I tend to have slightly high morning BG readings so my ketostix are often very low or negative.
Neat thread. 0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_
Quick question. The GKI is the amount of insulin floating around right? The lower the better right?
I divided my BG of 4.7 with ketones 0.7 = 6.7
Is this high? What are the ranges?
6.7 is great. He says in the article anything under 10 is great for someone wanting to be in ketosis for overall health benefits. The only reason a person needs to ever aim lower is if they need therapeutic levels for epilepsy or cancer treatment, for example.
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Foamroller wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_
Thanks for the link.... Lots of (LC) food for thought!
This concept doesn't seem to click for me in regard to folks who aren't diabetic, though, since they don't have insulin resistance - and therefore wouldnt have elevated insulin levels - in the first place.
If my BG levels bobbed steadily in 80-95 waters (by some miracle!), I'd think my ketone level would be the only relevant variable.
??
It applies regardless of someone's level of insulin resistance though. It's only purpose really is to determine the therapeutic level of ketones and get an idea of how low ones insulin production may be. Insulin resistance or not, the goal is low insulin.
I'm not getting how you can extrapolate insulin production from your BG level alone, which is largely the result of a dance between glucagon and insulin, if your BG stays in the typical, narrow, nondiabetic range. (Also, the small variations between 80 & 95 are within the margin of error for measuring BG anyhow.)
For example, the HOMA and HOMA-2 models for estimating insulin resistance and beta-cell function require independent insulin measurement.
It's not from BG alone. It's the combination of it and blood ketones. You can't have high ketones AND high insulin. But you can have high insulin with normal or low BG.
So, if you test high on ketones... your insulin can't be high. At least not at that point in time.
I agree with @Sunny_Bunny the GKI is as good as it gets ATM as a proxy for insulin levels. A warning of caution, though: We still don't know exactly what and to which degree ketones get higher for the INDIVIDUAL. We only know that eating a very lowcarb, exercise and fasting elevates ketones to different degrees. According to some lectures I've watched, some people have difficulty raising their ketone levels above 0.5 mmol, while others have no problem getting into 1-3 range. Some people report anecdotally (2ketodudes) that the only variables that significantly raise BHB are exercise or fasting.
So I would only use the GKI as an indication of insulin levels. There's enough keto anxiety floating around already. Another point is that any exogenous ketones such as MCT or the ketone esters and salts will artificially raise ketones, but will obscure any attempts at trying to correlate GKI with insulin.
I still think that eating a diet according to Kendall's insulin index is probably the easiest way for many people. Exercise and fasting are add-ons.
The ONE thing that would benefit all of the things we want to improve is quality of sleep...and down the rabbit hole we go...
Edit: If you want to tryout the GKI protocol, at least establish a baseline of "normal" ketone blood levels with your current WOE and living for a minimum of 3 weeks. THEN, you can start experimenting and testing the effects of different foods, volume, frequency, exercise and fasting... or you won't know the way your compass is heading .
Really good points.
I definitely don't anyone to stress over ketones. It is a common thing to thing to think the more the better when that's really only true if you're in ketosis for therapeutic treatment of cancer or epilepsy for example.
I do know some people have more trouble with achieving higher numbers than others and I suspect it to be at least partially associated with insulin resistance and overproduction on insulin that stubbornly won't quit. Who knows what other factors may play a role. But I do still think knowing how to watch it using the best available tools we have, like this, can help to at least identify what works best on an individual basis.1 -
Interesting and thanks for doing this experiment and posting.
Last check up, the doc said my ketones were fairly high. I was worried about A1C and asked and he muttered that he did not think I had a problem as he got the report out. A1C is good. Duh! I never put the two together.0
This discussion has been closed.