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Should I push my calories higher?

Firefly0606
Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
edited November 13 in Social Groups
I have been resetting for about a year, slowly pushing my calories higher and have been lifting heavy consistently since May 2016. I have reached a point where I am toying with the idea of a cut, but I'm not 100% sure I've reached my TDEE yet.

Stats:
CW: 109.6kg (241 lbs)
Height: 174cm
Lifting heavy 3 times per week, following stronglifts 5x5. Busy work schedule and chasing family around between sleeps.

Calculators put my TDEE somewhere in the range of 2850 - 2900. I am currently maintaining at 3000 cal per day. As part of my reset I have slowly worked my cals higher, up from around 1800 per day. I had a brain-snap about 5 months ago....went back to my old ways for about 2 months and was eating at 1800 again. I kept lifting and managed to keep increasing my weights through this time, lost some scale weight but woke up one morning lethargic, cranky, plateaued for 5 days...I recognised it this time - this was the point where my body was saying 'no more', remembered what I was supposed to be doing in the first place with reset and upped my cals back to around 2800. I have pushed my cals up to 3000, put on 2lbs since going back to 2800+ and have maintained ever since.

So 2 big questions:
Should I cut from here or should I try to push my cals even higher? I am unsure if I am actually 'there' at my TDEE of 3000 cal per day, or if it is a psychological thing - I didn't expect to reach 3000. Even if I'm not at true TDEE and eating as much as I could, I'm pretty pleased with and comfortable eating 3000 per day as it is. (Tough problem to have, I know!)

At 3000 cal and protein set at 30%, makes 225g of protein per day. I am finding it easy to eat my calories, but really hard to eat that much protein. On a really good day where I feel like I eat plenty of protein, I start the day with a 4 whole egg omelette, a whole chicken breast for dinner, 2-3 tins of tuna at lunch...I can take in 180-200g. As soon as I'm having a busy morning without the time to cook eggs, I eat something else which contains enough calories, but my protein intake for the day suffers. Is there a point where I would be eating too much protein? How much is actually adequate?
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Replies

  • Raynn1
    Raynn1 Posts: 1,164 Member
    The way to find out if you are at TDEE is to push higher and see what happens. If you push higher and the scale rises and rises and DOES NOT level out, then you know your original target is correct. If you push up and the scale goes up for a few weeks, then levels.. then your TDEE is not at the lower number and is indeed higher. We want to make sure we are hitting that highest ceiling, because when we do start to decrease the cals, the end result is making sure our final maintenance amount is as high as possible for us.

    You can certainly try a cut and see what happens. Just make sure that after a period of a few weeks, you jump back to maintenance for a week or two. Don't allow the slope downwards last very long, otherwise the body will rebel, (as you have already realized).. some people will cut for 4 weeks, then eat a week at TDEE and so forth.. some go two weeks cut.. some will try and make it 6 weeks. It really varies. Find what works best for you, but know that you dont want to give your body the thought that you are staving it again.

    Protein is key. it is very important to hit your protein amounts, if nothing else. Is there any reason why you arent using things like protein powders or shakes? These are great and easy ways to get in that extra bit of protein needed and help you to hit that 30%. The good thing is, once we start making the trend downwards and calories are lower and such, these can be the first things you can remove as well.

    Here are some articles that might help you on the protein front

    http://eatmore2weighless.com/power-protein/
    http://eatmore2weighless.com/eat-enough-protein/
    http://eatmore2weighless.com/protein

    Im 245g of protein every day and have been hitting it consistently for almost 10 months now. It can be done. :)


    Kelly
    EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    Thanks for your response. I think I will increase again by 50-100, sit there for a few weeks and see what happens.

    The only reason I'm not using protein supplements is that when I started my reset, part of the brain game for me was removing all of the diet 'advice' I had taken in over the years. I decided I wanted to feed and nourish my body with plenty of real food. I don't like them because protein powders/shakes/bars still represents that whole industry for me. Maybe I need to re-think this to help until I lose body fat and have less of a calorie need.
  • empressichel
    empressichel Posts: 730 Member
    I love the fact you are willing to keep pushing and trying with your TDEE.
    Great attitude.
    I know the protein can be challenging. I'm like @Raynn1 and get around 250g protein per day. I realised a long time ago I could only get there with protein shakes. I go for natural plant based ones and it's just part of my routine now.
    Ichel
    EM2WL ambassador and moderator
  • tj0861
    tj0861 Posts: 48 Member
    Along the same lines, how do we know how much to increase our estimated TDEE when we start strength training? Or do we just recalc our TDEE with more activity?
  • Raynn1
    Raynn1 Posts: 1,164 Member
    tj0861 wrote: »
    Along the same lines, how do we know how much to increase our estimated TDEE when we start strength training? Or do we just recalc our TDEE with more activity?

    A lot of it is a guessing game. The calculators are just a starting point, but you can tweak it and play with it until you get the right number. It can be a long process though. However, your TDEE should include your strength training already, as its part of your activity level
  • tj0861
    tj0861 Posts: 48 Member
    Raynn1 wrote: »
    tj0861 wrote: »
    Along the same lines, how do we know how much to increase our estimated TDEE when we start strength training? Or do we just recalc our TDEE with more activity?

    A lot of it is a guessing game. The calculators are just a starting point, but you can tweak it and play with it until you get the right number. It can be a long process though. However, your TDEE should include your strength training already, as its part of your activity level


    Thanks!! I was thinking that might be the case, and you confirmed it!
  • empressichel
    empressichel Posts: 730 Member
    Yes! Hitting two goals!
    Isn't it interesting being your own living experiment?
    Keep posting as you go. I love reading how you are doing.
    Ichel
    EM2WL ambassador and moderator
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    Well I have averaged 3085 cal per day. I was aiming for 3150. For the last week. Weight stayed exactly. the. same. each day for 6 days. 109.8kg. This was really surprising – for as long as I have been logging my weight has zigzagged every day, a little bit up, a little bit down. I can’t recall it ever staying exactly the same for a whole week. Perhaps this actually is TDEE?

    The weekend was a bit outside of the ordinary. Saturday was hot and I did a tour of a local organic farm, 33 degrees C walking around in paddocks for a few hours. My daughter competed at a regional athletics carnival on Sunday and I was there cheering her on. I didn’t plan very well and didn’t take enough food, plus it was 34 degrees C (about 93 F). It would have been nicer by the pool! I had to help out in the middle of the track for about 2 hours and I think I ended up a bit dehydrated given the heat and little bit of sunburn I got. I didn’t meet my calorie goals for the day – I consumed overall 2900, and definitely did not get enough protein.
    After Sunday, the scale jumped up to 110.4, then 110.8 this morning. I am a little shocked by that – I thought one day after a horrible eating day would jump up, and then expected my weight to go back down this morning but it hasn’t. Today is shaping up to get everything back to normal – I lifted this morning, I am properly hydrated again, I have slept well, I hit my protein goals yesterday and will again today.

    This is such a psychological game though. One day I look down my arm and enjoy seeing muscle definition like I have never seen before. And getting excited because there is still plenty of fat on those arms….and when I do start a cut phase that definition will only improve further. Then I see photos of myself taken this week and have to fight the urge to cut right now because I’m bigger than everyone else and I don’t want to be big anymore. I know I want to cut fat, not “lose weight” and this is the right track. I’m frustrated at my body shape at the moment too….and angry at my pants. My butt is reaping the benefit of squatting 50kg+ 3 x per week. Win! But because my stomach is carrying a lot of my body fat every pair of pants or shorts I wear has to be bigger to fit my waist and I have a seriously saggy butt. And pants the next size down fit my legs and butt but I can’t button them up. :(

    I think I might need to aim for 3150 consistently again this week and see what happens. The day of 2900 dragged my weekly average down – my weight was really steady when I was hitting 3000+ cal each day earlier in the week. And surely the extra 1kg gained over the weekend is water weight? What do you all think?
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    Rats! No dip down -110.8 again this morning.
  • zanyzana
    zanyzana Posts: 248 Member
    Hi firefly - Are you in Australia? The weather on the east coast of late might have made you retain water. Or maybe you're building up to TOM. How many weeks have you been aiming for 3150? Are you tracking your weights on an app / program to see the general trend? I've been using Happy Scale (app), and now Trendweight (online program thing) as they help to even out the up and down spikes. It takes the sting out of the daily changes - I'm less emotionally attached to numbers now. It might help you too?

    Just keep plodding along. This is the long haul approach, not the quick fix!
  • empressichel
    empressichel Posts: 730 Member
    @zanyzana said it perfectly, it's the overall trends you want to look for.
    As you said, your weekend was out of the normal routine do give it a few weeks of consistency and see how you feel then.
    Clothing is a real frustration when your body changes shape from lifting. It might take some trial and error trying different styles and different stores. But this is great! Squat booty in the build!
    Ichel
    EM2WL ambassador and moderator
  • empressichel
    empressichel Posts: 730 Member
    I'm eating over 3000 and not gaining, so how great is that!?!?

    This sentence! ^^^^^^!
    What an inspiration! You have such a spot on attitude. Love how you are willing to experiment and push it!
    Ichel
    EM2WL ambassador and moderator
  • tj0861
    tj0861 Posts: 48 Member
    edited November 2016
    3000? I can't IMAGINE being able to eat that much (yet)!!!
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    So I stayed at 110.8 for another day or so, then dropped to 110.3 for the rest of the week.

    I have felt quite tired over the weekend and ended up using it for resting. I didn't adjust my calories. I planned to lift on Saturday morning, but ended up not lifting at all over the weekend, just got on with my usual activity. I weighed 110.9 this morning, and had a good strong lifting session where I increased my weight on squats, bench press and bent over rows (following stronglifts 5x5). Squat 55kg or 121lbs / BP 35kg or 77lbs / Row 42.5kg or 93.5lbs this morning 

    Averaged 3246 calories this last week. :)

    The scale isn’t freaking me out at all – it’s become a really interesting part of my little experiment so I am not attached to the numbers, I am weighing every morning and am fascinated by seeing pretty much the same number. I want to keep using it as a daily measuring stick until I get to TDEE, then I’m going to back right off weighing in as a daily weigh in won’t matter once I am cutting. And I just love lifting and increasing the weight on the bar. Feel like superwoman and wouldn’t ever trade that for endless cardio now.

    So I'm eating for an army (of one ;) ), but noticed I was feeling a little bit hungry over the weekend. I know, right? My mind is blown saying that I am feeling a bit hungry after eating 3200 calories in a day. Plus more tired than usual over the weekend. Weight is stable, hitting protein goals….is my body telling me that I need a bit more fuel - should I increase calories again? Do I really need to keep going up until I see gains on that scale? I think I’m going to increase….but am kinda looking for some words of encouragement here, just so I am sure I’m not completely losing my mind.
  • Raynn1
    Raynn1 Posts: 1,164 Member
    If you want to take your experiement to the next lvel, then yes, if you are hungry, eat more:) Thats the metabolism revving up which is a good thing. My average is around 3200... but ill eat upwards of 3600 if the day goes that way. Especially when doing heavy lifting, I always find the next day Im famished!! Listen to your body, and keep doing your tracking. You might be surprised to see what might happen:)

    Kelly
    EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator
  • ibtmas
    ibtmas Posts: 111 Member
    Ok. So if the weight stabilizes u can eat more but what if it does not?. i'm on the sixth week eating at tdee and my weight has trended upwards till then. Should i keep eating these numbers? when did u start seeing a halt in your weight @Firefly0606 ?
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    @ibtmas hard to answer your question. I remember an upward trend when I first started reset about a year ago. Then I stopped worrying about anything so much for a while. In that time I regained everything I'd lost on 1500 cals BEFORE I discovered em2wl....about 9kg. Then I had a brain snap and went back to eating 1600-1800 for about 2 months from June into September. As soon as I started feeling awful, I remembered em2wl and jumped straight back to 2800. So I guess from September to now is my second attempt at reset? It feels different this time, there hasn't been as steep a trend upwards in weight. It's stayed within a 3lbs range as I upped from 2800, gradually increasing calls to about 3240. It's almost like my body remembered the 1st attempt at reset- or I stopped the low calorie circus just in time before I undid any good from the 1st attempt.

    I'm just reading and re-reading about the process a lot, and trusting it. So I'm at a point where there is no gain, so I push 100 cal higher and wait. If there is no gain, push higher again. Eventually there will be a gain, so I'll back down a bit and that should be my TDEE.

    What's hitting home for me at the moment is reading that you will know when it "feels right". So, 6 weeks ago if you had said to me that a 10% cut from 3200 would be 2900, I would have cheered about how great it would be to eat 2900 and lose body fat. Today, I'm not really looking forward to cutting to 2900....I'm still a little bit hungry after 3200. 2900 is going to hurt! I think I'm close to TDEE, I think I'm close to a healed metabolism because my changed attitude towards 2900 being a hardship and not something to be happy about "feels right".

    Did you jump straight in to tdee or gradually go there? If you jumped straight in I think you need to let the gains happen until they stabilise. Only then will you know if you are truly at TDEE. If you gradually upped then you take make the gains a little slower, so are more likely to stabilise along the way. I would keep eating those numbers until you stabilise, even if it meant gaining another 1000kg. Because it will be worth it to be healed, to feed and nourish your body, to be strong and to know how to lose fat.
  • ibtmas
    ibtmas Posts: 111 Member
    @Firefly0606 well i gradually increased my calories and was puffed like a chicken increasing them but then gradually i started feeling hungry and was happy to be at 2k. even though i gained weight my inches reamined the same till 6kgs+ but after reaching 2300+ i've started gaining inches too and i'm a total 10kgs above my starting weight. i've too read alot and will wait this week and see. then i plan to - 100 cals and see if the weight stabilizes.
    u r doing great with your numbers. All the best to you and your motivation!!
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    @ibtmas I think time needs to be a factor too. If you were actually at TDEE 100 calories ago, then it should have taken a bit over 2 months to gain 1kg. From what I'm reading (and more than happy to be corrected here!) if the 4kgs you have gained happened over less than 8 months then it might not be because of eating too many calories. I'd hold steady, not back off. If you're 100 cals over TDEE this week (7days), you would only gain about 100g. So if you gain 100g this week coming, you might be right and you really are over TDEE by 100.

    It's like the math didn't add up for me whenever I was on a low calorie diet. For example, I would sneak in a piece of cheesecake worth 500 calories, but the scale would increase by a whole kg the next day. But a kg is worth about 7000 cal? Now I'm finding the opposite - the math actuall IS adding up! If I eat the cheesecake in addition to my calories today, the scale seems to move in proportion - so up about 100g.
  • Raynn1
    Raynn1 Posts: 1,164 Member
    @Firefly0606 You are on a roll this week:)

    Yes finding TDEE can be a long process, especially 100 cals at a time, but the end result is what you are looking for. Going slowly up can keep gains to a minimum. I did it the "easy" way, which was jumping immediately to TDEE and the gains were insane. I cried for years..I think in the end, I would have been better to go slowly, and maybe it wouldnt have taken me so long to find my actual TDEE that way.

    I was happy at 2400 when I hit it.
    I was happy at 2800 when I hit that. I couldnt possibly handle 3000. But slowly you realize its not that hard to hit.. and now I hit 3200 consistently, and have no issues going upwards of 3600 on hungry days. I fear cutting, when I have to lose cals again.. It makes me sad.. (And to be honest, that is when you are in fact ready to cut.. when you cant possibly think you can cut because of the missing cals) If you spend your time wishing for that cut to happen, wanting to cut NOW NOW NOW!!! You are truly not ready for it. Time is all you got and its important to use the time in the correct way. Rushing through a process will add more time in the long run. Most of us suffered that by having to reset more than once.

    Kelly
    EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator
  • ibtmas
    ibtmas Posts: 111 Member
    @Firefly0606 you are absolutely right. i know i have not eaten 2000 above maintenance but i was not sure that how much should i wait and watch. after reading some more tdee threads at the em2wl forums i got to know that one should wait 4 to 5 weeks to see the trends if its not leveling out. so i'll give it two more weeks and see where it would take me. Thankyou so much for your responce :)
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    So encouraged by the fact you are going to wait 2 more weeks to see what happens.
  • cosmonew
    cosmonew Posts: 513 Member
    I was on the fence about raising my calories, but after reading this, I'm gonna do it...just 100 more. Thanks for posting your thoughts and results.
  • ibtmas
    ibtmas Posts: 111 Member
    Firefly0606 wrote: »
    So encouraged by the fact you are going to wait 2 more weeks to see what happens.

    Oh Yess! I Will!
  • empressichel
    empressichel Posts: 730 Member
    cosmonew wrote: »
    I was on the fence about raising my calories, but after reading this, I'm gonna do it...just 100 more. Thanks for posting your thoughts and results.

    Fantastic! This is what community is all about!
    Ichel
    EM2WL ambassador and moderator
  • Firefly0606
    Firefly0606 Posts: 366 Member
    Time to check in. I have been unwell with some sort of virus over the past week and didn't log at all. It's the first time in a long, long time that I didn't log all my food and also didn't freak out about it. Liberating really - not worrying about every morsel I was putting in my mouth. I am looking forward to this part of my life, down this track where I can learn to eat intuitively. I read about others doing it, and it occurs to me that it is stupid saying "I don't know how to eat"...but I've forgotten this basic essential for a healthy life and I want to learn it back.

    So, definitely low on calories, who'd know on macros?, no workouts. Weight is down from 111.3 to 110.6kg. Probably will bounce back to 111.

    I have a very busy 2 weeks in the lead up to Christmas. My daughter is running at a State athletics carnival this weekend which we need to travel for, then back home for 4 days to get ready for holidays for 3 weeks at the coast. I'm back to counting and lifting for the next 2 weeks when I can, then for holidays I'm going to just let everything be. I need the rest more than I need to watch my weight graph. I can't wait. Back to normal tracking and workouts when I get back in January. Looking forward to a cut around March or April.

    The only thing I have a little concern about is that I think I know my TDEE when I'm working my desk job and lifting 3 x per week. I have no idea what it is when I'm on holidays and not lifting but an more active than usual with swimming, walking, biking etc. SO who knows what's going to happen as I eat intuitively over the next few weeks? How do you handle holidays?
  • Raynn1
    Raynn1 Posts: 1,164 Member
    I would continue at your current TDEE while on holidays. For the little bit of time there might be a difference, it wont hurt either way, whether tdee should be lower or higher. Its just a lot easier to keep the course the same and just relax:)

    For me, I enjoy the holidays by sitting at TDEE and just enjoying time with my family. Its not worth the stress or hassle to get too involved in things:) A lot of times I dont even track for the few days around Christmas, just too many things going on. I work on getting in my protein over anything else, and let things fall where they shall. If I know Im having meals that are more carb heavy, I will make sure to have an extra protein shake or bar to help round it out.
    After spending too many holidays fretting over tracking and scale watching and such, I let the stress go last year and just stop during the holidays.. :)

    Sounds like you have some great plans in place!!

    Kelly
    EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator
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