Bike Trainers
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@ntnunk: I hope the thing is working correctly! I'm no Olympian. I ride at 17mph while in the seat, cranking at about 80RPM. This gets my HR up to around 140. When I jog, it goes higher, up to around 160 for brief periods. So yesterday I decided to pump out of the seat for several 2-minute intervals during the workout. To make it comfortable, I had to go into the highest gear, whereupon I was at 40-50RPM and closer to 20MPH. The problem was that, unlike when you climb a hill out of the seat, the resistance felt low, so that I would sometimes lose force on the cranks. A little practice eliminated this, but its certainly different from a road ride. I did succeed in raising my HR by doing this,
as shown below.0 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »@ntnunk: I hope the thing is working correctly! I'm no Olympian. I ride at 17mph while in the seat, cranking at about 80RPM. This gets my HR up to around 140. When I jog, it goes higher, up to around 160 for brief periods. So yesterday I decided to pump out of the seat for several 2-minute intervals during the workout. To make it comfortable, I had to go into the highest gear, whereupon I was at 40-50RPM and closer to 20MPH. The problem was that, unlike when you climb a hill out of the seat, the resistance felt low, so that I would sometimes lose force on the cranks. A little practice eliminated this, but its certainly different from a road ride. I did succeed in raising my HR by doing this,
as shown below.
Ahhh. This makes more sense. First, jogging will normally result in a higher HR than cycling. Most people who run and cycle actually have two different max HR and zone breakouts for the two different activities. It makes sense when you think about it: when you cycle you aren't normally supporting your own body weight, therefore you aren't working as hard. When you're out of the saddle then cycling becomes a self-supporting exercise so your HR numbers will mimic your numbers for a run much more closely.
Yes, riding out of the saddle on a trainer is a different think from the road. You have to be a lot more smooth and you can't really use your weight to apply force to the pedals as much as you do on the road. I'd guess this is what was giving you the sense of the trainer not having enough resistance.1 -
Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
However, just to dig a little deeper re: the trainer
Just a short geeky calculation... Hold on, here comes the maths bit...
assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.
Now, if you're riding along at 605W and you can't get your heart rate to go "to max" then to be perfectly honest, you shouldn't be sat in your garage riding, you should be applying for a contract with Sky or BMC
Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
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Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
However, just to dig a little deeper re: the trainer
Just a short geeky calculation... Hold on, here comes the maths bit...
assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.
Now, if you're riding along at 605W and you can't get your heart rate to go "to max" then to be perfectly honest, you shouldn't be sat in your garage riding, you should be applying for a contract with Sky or BMC
Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
I was going to say something similar about the cadence. I go about 80-85 when warming up, but most of my time in the trainer is up at 90 or higher. Get working on increasing your cadence.1 -
I love it when @TheBigYin starts breaking out the equations! Yes, I am in fact a nerd.assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
There's a few other good reasons for doing this as well. First, low cadence, high force work is hard on your knees. You're transferring a bunch of force though joints that are already susceptible to damage. And if you're like most of us and no longer a spring chicken, the gentler you are on your knees the better. Hell, even if you are a spring chicken, the gentler on your knees the better.
Second, moving from low cadence, high force to high cadence, low force transfers some of the load from your muscles to your cardiovascular system. That alone will cause your HR to rise. But the bigger benefit is that "mashing" a big gear at a low cadence causes your quads to fatigue at a faster rate since more of your absolute power output is coming from torque vs. RPM. Spinning smaller gear at a higher cadence keeps your quads fresher for longer by allowing you to generate the same power but with your cardiovascular system taking more of the load. This is preferable because your cardio system doesn't fatigue the same way your legs do. It can take the load repeatedly, and recover faster, than your legs can.
Third, higher cadence allows you to respond much, much more quickly and with less effort to changes in speed, particularly in races and group rides. If you are following a wheel and a sudden acceleration happens while you're spinning an easier gear, you can quickly spin up, accelerate, and close the small gap. If you're mashing along in a big gear you'll have to expend a lot of energy getting that big gear up to speed, it'll take longer to match the acceleration, and you'll then have to stay "on the gas" longer to close the gap because it'll have gotten bigger during the time you were fighting to get the big gear up to speed.
Getting your "natural" cadence up can take time but it's definitely worth the effort. I started off as a "masher" too but after getting dropped from the group in crit race a couple of years ago (see the third point, above) my coach had me start working on it. I used to ride in the low to mid 80s, now if I'm not paying attention my cadence will sit in the mid to high 90s normally. The easiest way to accomplish this is to just start paying attention. When you ride, let your cadence settle to where it "wants" to be, then go one gear easier. You'll naturally feel yourself start to spin faster to keep from slowing down. Just keep doing that and you'll slowly adapt and before long you'll find yourself easily spinning much faster.
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »The strange thing about the trainer for me is that I can't get my heart rate up without getting off the seat. Riding off the seat on the trainer is different from when you are on the road, swaying the bike. Also, I feel like I could use more resistance when I'm really pumping. I'm already using the highest gear.
Might be worth looking at another trainer. Most can simulate a reasonable level of resistance (I think about 800W) so if anything it's usually easier to get your heart rate up and sustain it on the turbo than on the road.0 -
Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
I am able to max my heart rate when riding on the road. Hoping to do so on the trainer as well. I think it will just take some practice.assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
When I'm riding at 80RPM, I'm in a gear that makes my speed 17MPH. When I'm out of the seat, my cadence drops to about 50RPM, and I'm barely doing better than 19MPH. No 28.5 for me!P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
Many thanks for that formula! It puts my power at 185 watts or 160kcal/hour. The calorie consumption estimate by Wahoo is about 800kcal/hour. So my physiological efficiency is 20%.Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
That is an excellent suggestion. I have to focus to keep it even at 80. I have some work to do!
Best of luck with your training!
@smeakim1: I'm a bigger wimp than you. My "sprint" at 19MPH is only 2.8W/kg. (according to the formula posted by @TheBigYin.)
I really can't imagine that there's anything wrong with the trainer.
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