Fasting
Lucille4444
Posts: 284 Member
Interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk 1
Replies
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Yes, it is. I think @RalfLott posted this video a while back... not sure... But any great advice is always worth repeating!0
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AlexandraCarlyle wrote: »Yes, it is. I think @RalfLott posted this video a while back... not sure... But any great advice is always worth repeating!
You have to focus on where this particular clip starts - a protein vs. fat burning oratory. (Around 18'30".)
As someone with a disturbed (perturbed?), metabolism, I'm not sure I buy Fung's dismissive "Why would your body do something as stupid as burn muscle when there's free fat fuel everywhere?"
My body does lots of stupid things.2 -
AlexandraCarlyle wrote: »Yes, it is. I think @RalfLott posted this video a while back... not sure... But any great advice is always worth repeating!
You have to focus on where this particular clip starts - a protein vs. fat burning oratory. (Around 18'30".)
As someone with a disturbed (perturbed?), metabolism, I'm not sure I buy Fung's dismissive "Why would your body do something as stupid as burn muscle when there's free fat fuel everywhere?"
My body does lots of stupid things.
I think the body does stupid things when and because it's in a disordered state. Mine used to insist I was starving, even as it was packing away as fast the food I just ate.
Sadly, some people may never be able to get out of some of dysfunctional states, but a healthy body doesn't generally go after protein before fat until fat gets too low (though it will use some protein as glucose substrate, so it's not entirely an either-or thing).0 -
....My body does lots of stupid things.
(I'm not going to even ask....)
I think it pays to remember that two women of the same height, the same age and the same weight will react in very drastically different ways to certain processes, because no matter how similar people are, different bodies will insist on behaving in distinctly different ways.
We can all seek advice, support, counsel, opinion, information and views, but in the end we have to be happy with ourselves, and do what works well for us, without trying our minds up in knots and analysing everything to the Nth degree.
"Hyper-analysis causes paralysis."
If it feels good, carry on.
If it's not working - don't.
Find another avenue.
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I'm not sure what to make of it, but to me, it is very interesting, and at this point feel neither the need to engage in it or try to denigrate it either.
Far too may times in my life I have made too quick judgments. Now, if something seems interesting, I try to learn more.2 -
Lucille4444 wrote: »I'm not sure what to make of it, but to me, it is very interesting, and at this point feel neither the need to engage in it or try to denigrate it either.
Far too may times in my life I have made too quick judgments. Now, if something seems interesting, I try to learn more.
Oh, how I wish I'd had that mindset when LFHC was recommended to me!
FYI, there's a lot of great info in other fasting threads here.0 -
Some protein will absolutely be used in a fasted state. Your body requires about 100-130g glucose a day for brain, white blood cells, some other stuff I don't remember. I used to think it was just 40-ish for the brain only but I've since learned there are actually other things that must have just a little bit too.
Anyway, if you don't supply it from carbs or dietary protein then your body will make it from your lean tissue. Maybe some of that will be excess skin and connective tissue. Maybe some of it comes from actual muscle.
To me it makes sense that if you eat at a caloric deficit and practice fasting also, you're potentially signaling your body to slow metabolism therefore, I think it's more likely to select to use muscle.
If you eat up to or beyond your caloric needs overall and practice fasting to create the fat loss, I think it makes sense that your body will get the signal that you're not in a food shortage situation and will be more likely to use excess tissues for glucose conversion.
Basically, DONT ADD FASTING TO YOUR LOW OR REDUCED CALORIE DIET.
That's my thinking.1 -
@Sunny_Bunny_, how many hours do you have in mind when you say this? Are you looking at days or 12-hour blocks?0
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Well.... I would say I'm reduced calorie.... and I fast sporadically (a day at the most, currently) but I KNOW I have a bit of extra 'freezer stuff' to lose.... so currently, I'm not uber-concerned with combining fasting with dieting.
All I will say is that once my fast is over, I eat normally, and don't skimp.....0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_, how many hours do you have in mind when you say this? Are you looking at days or 12-hour blocks?
Based on what I've heard from Megan Ramos on Fasting Talk, even 16/8 IF should be in conjunction with days eating at maintenance to create a true FEAST/FAST and not just severe caloric restriction.
If I understand correctly, she does seem to think when you have a lot of body fat (I have no number reference for what a lot is) that it's less of an issue for the short term.
What I gather is she and Fung do advocate to eat when hungry and don't when not. Which makes sense to me. I feel like the body is pretty smart in that way. If hunger signals are screwed up, I think it's typically the not feeling satisfied one not so much always feeling satisfied even when starving...
She says if you fast at all you must also feast. The cycle isn't complete without the feast. The feast let's your body know you're not in a starvation situation. It's intended to avoid signaling slowing the metabolism.
But I think, hunger signals trump all. If you're truly reaching satiety in a caloric deficit and you have plenty of body fat, I'm not sure the risk is the same.
If you're using will power or going hungry in order to keep calories low on non fasting days/times, i think that's probably a sign that you need to pay attention too.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Based on what I've heard from Megan Ramos on Fasting Talk, even 16/8 IF should be in conjunction with days eating at maintenance to create a true FEAST/FAST and not just severe caloric restriction.
Fasting seems to have some physiological processes that prevent lowering of metabolism and other things, so it is of interest to me. I think weight loss should be safe, but there is some new and interesting info on certain kinds of fasting that seem to say that it can be healthy under certain circumstances.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »But I think, hunger signals trump all.
I did an internet search on ghrelin, the hormone responsible for hunger signals, and hunger and eating are apparently not necessarily joined completely; and ghrelin is also released in waves that correspond with the number of meals that as an individual we usually eat. That is very interesting.
Again, I certainly am not arguing for any one way of eating or not eating, although for me personally low carb is a good fit, but my curiosity has been piqued by some of the information I have read in the last few weeks.
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Hunger and thirst signals don't seem like good guides, at least for those of us getting up there in years or with out-of-tune metabolisms.
Leptin and ghrelin aren't reliably matched to physiological needs, and I don't know of any practical way to tell a craving (don't eat) from hunger (eat). Meanwhile, thirst signaling is increasingly untrustworthy with age....0 -
Lucille4444 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Based on what I've heard from Megan Ramos on Fasting Talk, even 16/8 IF should be in conjunction with days eating at maintenance to create a true FEAST/FAST and not just severe caloric restriction.
Fasting seems to have some physiological processes that prevent lowering of metabolism and other things, so it is of interest to me. I think weight loss should be safe, but there is some new and interesting info on certain kinds of fasting that seem to say that it can be healthy under certain circumstances.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »But I think, hunger signals trump all.
I did an internet search on ghrelin, the hormone responsible for hunger signals, and hunger and eating are apparently not necessarily joined completely; and ghrelin is also released in waves that correspond with the number of meals that as an individual we usually eat. That is very interesting.
Again, I certainly am not arguing for any one way of eating or not eating, although for me personally low carb is a good fit, but my curiosity has been piqued by some of the information I have read in the last few weeks.
I agree that fasting has benefits. I think it becomes negative when you go from low calorie diet to fasting to low calorie diet to fasting... and continue doing that even when your body is telling you to eat.
And hunger signals are very hard to read. But I'm only addressing them in the context of low calorie diets and fasting. I think it's unwise to ignore hunger consistently when you ALWAYS eat reduced calories AND fast.
If someone is just eating reduced calories short term for weight loss, we often do have to work around being hungry off and on. After several weeks of that, it's a good idea to eat at maintenance for a week or so before going back to reduced calories again.
If someone has a lot of body fat and isn't feeling hungry eating reduced calories they're probably fine to stretch out the lower calorie time a while because the greater excess of bodyfat is taking care of the needs.Hunger and thirst signals don't seem like good guides, at least for those is us getting up there in years or with out-of-tune metabolisms.
Leptin and ghrelin aren't reliably matched to physiological needs, and I don't know of any practical way to tell a craving (don't eat) from hunger (eat). Meanwhile, thirst signaling is increasingly untrustworthy with age....
It makes sense to me that if a person has plenty of body fat and feels hungry within 4 hours of a meal, they're probably not really hungry. This is assuming the person is seeking nutrient dense foods and potential nutrient deficiency isn't the trigger of hunger. That's where tracking intake is helpful. And not eating empty calories... I love Cronometer for nutrient tracking.
As far as cravings... if you would be happy to eat any food in your fridge and you don't just want to eat a certain food... it's probably not a craving. If the only thing you want is bacon or chocolate or whatever... that sounds like a craving. I think that's a "hunger" that can be ignored IF it's not a signal that sodium is low or something like that.
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I think this makes a lot of sense. My plan is to eat at maintenance in between fasts, but eat low carb.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I agree that fasting has benefits. I think it becomes negative when you go from low calorie diet to fasting to low calorie diet to fasting... and continue doing that even when your body is telling you to eat.
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Yep, it sure does.
It would be nice if there were some way to run MFP's food diary through Cronometer or the USDA database.
Are there MFP scripts around other than the one for net carbs?0 -
If there is I haven't found it and I have looked. I'd like the cronometer data, but am too lazy to cut and paste everything in my dairy over.
USDA is in MFP, you have to prefix everything with USDA to get them to show up and some folks have "just had to tweak" entries, so you have to be careful which one you choose.
After listening to Megan Ramos with the 2ketodudes, I have started trying to up my calories after multiple day fasting, seems it is best to really up them before the fast begins, and to do around TDEE, mostly fats, afterwards. I am in day 2 of a 3 day fast, I plan to go TDEE for a 2 days and then do 1 day of TDEE plus extra fats, and start another multiple day fast, I want to work up to 5 days.2
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