debodom1962 wrote: »

@tayusuki right? I was confused before, I am moreso now. Now I don't know if I'm losing weight because my calories are super low (CICO) or because I'm eating high fat. They need to make a "keto for dummies" and simplify it.

This is why I don't like the way Phinney explains it. It may make sense to some, but IME, it's more confusing than it needs to be.

You burn X amount of calories per day, so to lose weight at a rate of 1lb per week, you take in X-500 calories per day, most of that 500 calorie reduction should come from carbs and/or fat, because your protein needs are based on your lean mass.

You then already have the "burn body fat" part taken care of, because you're eating a caloric deficit. This happens (theoretically, at least) regardless of what your intake proportions are.

But where do the ratios come from? The ones "everyone on keto knows" come from the average maintenance calories. For your own personal ratios, unless you're doing it for seizure control or other medical purpose that requires a certain ratio, you find it by:

1. Determining your upper limit for carbs. (Ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)
2. Determining your protein need. (Goal, try to hit it pretty closely, it's okay to go over a little)
3. Filling the remainder of your caloric goal with fat. (Filler and ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)

That gets you your general intake ratio (though keep in mind that you don't have to pour oil down your throat just to get that amount of fat in; enjoy your full fat foods and fatty meats, and don't fret if you're not hungry and fall short a bit).

RhiannonBecks wrote: »

baconslave wrote: »

Here's a different way of looking at it.

TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure. Which is how much your body burns every day to run your organs, and your work, AND your exercise. Total calorie burn for your daily life. Most keto calcs have this. Find it. Generally 500cal deficit will get you (supposedly) about a lb per week loss. 250cal deficit will get you a half pound. Find that TDEE figure and subtract your deficit of choice. That is your daily intake.
With this number make your carbs, protein, fat this:

• Carbs are a ceiling in grams.
• Protein is a range (based on your height/weight/activity level.
• Fill the rest of your calories with fat.

So the base of what you eat is a carb limit and a protein range (so you don't lose as much muscle-all weightloss will take some, this isn't specific to keto). What's left is fat.

We'll do my TDEE based upon ankerl.





So the section in red shows my TDEE. If I want to lose 1lb per week, I subtract 500cal from it. What's this 500 come from? Supposedly 3500cal deficit is what it takes to lose a pound. Divide that by the days of the week, you get 500cal deficit per day. Anyway,
So according to what I inputed into the calc, if I want to lose 1 pound per week, I need to calculate my macros based upon a calorie intake of 1568 cal which is 50g carbs, 100g protein (or a little higher. It's ok to go a little over), and 106g fat.
If I do eat more protein, I'll eat a bit less fat to compensate.

Of course, every 10 or 15lb, you need to recalculate the TDEE, as smaller bodies need fewer calories over time.
HTH.

I think this may have helped me as well, so thank you for breaking it down like this!

I do have a question based on this info though; my TDEE is calculated at 1807. ( I am hoping to lose the remaining 27# to goal). If I had MFP set at 2# loss, keeping what you said in mind, id be eating 807 cals a day based on that note of 500 cal deficit for every pound desired to lose.

Now I'm clearly not going to function on 807 cals a day, regardless of my fat intake I'd think.

So my question is this, Should I adjust my goals then, is 1# per week I more realistic with the amount I want to lose? Which brings me back to around 1307 cals a day. MFP calculated 1200 cals for me, so just adjust my own macros based on the 1307 and I should still see a deficit- right?......

Maybe I am just talking out loud trying to process. I have read a lot of things and just trying to make it simple as possible for longevity.

_Current plan per MFP: 1200 cals, Carbs %5/ 15 g,( I still hit 20 right around 20 or less some days), Fat 75% /100 g, and Protein 20%/60g. I walk 5-6 days a week for a total of about 5-6 miles daily.

1lb per week is more reasonable to expect. Maybe even 3/4 to half a pound. The less you have to lose, the smaller your TDEE. Stuff like 800cal is setting yourself up to fail for sure. If I wanted to lose 2lb per week, I have 15lb to lose, then I'd have to eat 1000cal. Ain't no way in Hades!

Take your TDEE. Subtract 500. That will be 1lb per week loss (possibly).

So you'd eat 1307, making your macros calculations in grams. Forget the percents. Do the grams. There's no reason on earth why you need to eat less than 20g carbs, unless you find that to be personally preferable for some reason. A lot of people can actually stay in ketosis up to 50g.
Your protein should match your height/weight/activity level. Your protein should be .8 to 1.2 grams per kg of lean body mass, higher in the range if you exercise frequently. The keto calculators can help you with that.
The rest is fat in grams.
Percents are bullhockey and inaccurate since it changes for each person. Grams grams grams.

The percents are based on TDEE for maintaining, your body fat is making up the difference in deficit. When it's maintenance time, then your fat intake will look more like 65 or 70% because your body fat is through the floor and you don't need to draw from it any more but you need calories so fat is where it's at to fill the gap in energy.

Remember that TDEE is a calculation. It isn't gospel. You may lose more or less, because you body doesn't care about a calculator's output. We are all different organisms. Your TDEE in reality may be higher or lower. If you are losing too slow, it might be lower than the calculation. So after 4-6 weeks you might need to lower it. If you are losing too fast, or starving to death, then your TDEE is higher and you can add 100cal and try that.

Did that help?

@baconslave Yes, yes and yaaaaaas. Totally Helps, I will just need to do a bit of math now on the grams instead of just doing the %.

I would never do 800 calories, regardless of what any calculator said, unless it was a medically supervised diet, besides, I may crumble under pressure within the first day if I knew I was restricting that much.

I will change my goal to 1# per week, I have lost about 7# since re-starting, which assuming is water weight. But the past 4 days ish I haven't moved even an ounce on the scale (really just for tracking purposes I weigh daily).

I haven't been hungry so I don't that will be an issue; in fact, it has been somewhat of a struggle to even hit that 1200 cals. The "under 20 grams" Is NET carbs if I didn't mention, and only bc the way the day worked out food wise. I think 14- 16 was the lowest I had hit. But by no means was it intentional.

I will up my calories and adjust, go from there and see if in 4 weeks anything changes.

I really cant thank you enough for explaining it like a 5 year old for me, lol!

I agree with @Dragonwolf
I only make this point for those specifically trying to use the 5/20/75 ratios. That's fine, but know what you're doing is all I'm saying.
They are constantly applied incorrectly.

If someone really wants that macro split. This is how to do it. As described above.

RalfLott wrote: »

Dragonwolf wrote: »

This is why I don't like the way Phinney explains it. It may make sense to some, but IME, it's more confusing than it needs to be.

For your own personal ratios, unless you're doing it for seizure control or other medical purpose that requires a certain ratio, you find it by:

1. Determining your upper limit for carbs. (Ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)
2. Determining your protein need. (Goal, try to hit it pretty closely, it's okay to go over a little)
3. Filling the remainder of your caloric goal with fat. (Filler and ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)

Dang. That sounds exactly like what I thought Phinney said. I must have missed something ...

Like I said, it makes sense to some people. Just be aware that not everyone understands it when presented the way he does, even if it seems obvious to you.

To me, including the "burned body fat" part into conversations for newbies, especially on places like here on MFP, where there's a high chance of the information from the two sources being juxtaposed onto one another, it just adds noise to things, as evidenced by the initial responses to your Phinney post.

debodom1962 wrote: »

@Sunny_Bunny_ Okay - I followed your directions even though MFP is a little confusing in and of itself. So this is what I got from the calculator that you used. 1387 calories, 117g fat, 62g protein, 20g carbs. I plugged that into MFP and then went on to the next step and this is what I ended up with 1280 calories, 17g carbs (5%), 78g protein (25%) and 100g fat (70%). That gives me a deficit of only 107 a day? So I went back in and put as my goal to lose 1lb a week, MFP set me up at 1200, 150 g carbs, 60 g protein, 40 g fat (when the heck did a high carb diet become the norm?), So I went in and recalculated like you did above and it brought me to 1186 calories, 20 g carbs (7%) 74g protein (25%) and 90g fat (68%). Is this going to work for me to lose weight? Because now, with that calculation, I have a 201 daily deficit plus my exercise so that should enable me to lose at least 1 lb per week and burn body fat and not just the fat I'm eating? I am not going to hold your feet to the fire if you say yes and I don't, I just can't make sense of all of this. In looking at the Atkins sight, it said I can eat up to 40g of carbs a day.

I feel like there's some wonky numbers in there but the last set you said looks good to me.
What's your height and weight if you don't my asking? A TDEE of 1387 seems very low. I'm fairly short and inactive and mine is at least 1500

Dragonwolf wrote: »

RalfLott wrote: »

Dragonwolf wrote: »

This is why I don't like the way Phinney explains it. It may make sense to some, but IME, it's more confusing than it needs to be.

For your own personal ratios, unless you're doing it for seizure control or other medical purpose that requires a certain ratio, you find it by:

1. Determining your upper limit for carbs. (Ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)
2. Determining your protein need. (Goal, try to hit it pretty closely, it's okay to go over a little)
3. Filling the remainder of your caloric goal with fat. (Filler and ceiling, try not to go over, don't go out of your way to hit it)

Dang. That sounds exactly like what I thought Phinney said. I must have missed something ...

Like I said, it makes sense to some people. Just be aware that not everyone understands it when presented the way he does, even if it seems obvious to you.

To me, including the "burned body fat" part into conversations for newbies, especially on places like here on MFP, where there's a high chance of the information from the two sources being juxtaposed onto one another, it just adds noise to things, as evidenced by the initial responses to your Phinney post.

Zing! Better to blame the messenger; those were Ralfisms, not Phinneyisms.

debodom1962 wrote: »

@Sunny_Bunny_ My stats are age 55, height 5'0", weight 153, body fat 42 (may be a little less but go with that). I exercise 5 or 6 days a week doing P90X and/or cardio and I don't phone it in and give it my all. If you want to play around with numbers for me that I can just plug in I'd be in your debt!

@kpk54 thank you. I have no idea why I'm nutting up over these numbers except with the body fat I have to lose already, I don't want to pack more on it needlessly.

Yeah, kpk gave you some important advice. Don't get too far up your own butt over that stuff, especially when first starting. Seriously, hit at or below your kcal target, at or above your protein target, keep your carbs low since you're shooting for LC, and don't worry much over where the fat number hits. You absolutely will lose weight so long as you are creating a caloric deficit.

If your weight doesn't go down, you're either eating too much, or you have let your NEAT fall off as your body downregulates in an attempt to compensate for the deficit. As Lyle McDonald put it "your body hates you. Well no, your body loves you, so much so that it's willing to do whatever it takes to keep you alive. Unfortunately, this includes trying to keep fat stores on you in an attempt to ward off what it believes is a pending starvation situation."

debodom1962 wrote: »

@Gallowmere1984 what is NEAT?

I'm not Gallowmere, but Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis is non-exercise daily movement: chores, stairs, childcare, job, and etc.
Which reminds me I've been sitting on the couch too much lately after workouts and I need to move my tush.

Dietary fat doesn't make you fat. Eating too much overall does.
All the verbal onslaught above is Advanced Keto stuff. You're still taking Beginning Keto 1. All you need to concern yourself with is to use a calc to find your calorie deficit. Eat less than your carbs in grams. In your protein range in grams. Fill the rest of the calories in fat. After a couple weeks, you'll know exactly which foods you eat daily that make that happen. In general, eat fatty cuts of meat, cook with butter or animal fat or coconut oil, eat some low-carb dairy if you can tolerate it, nuts or avocado if you have the carbs, and reasonable portions of mostly aboveground veggies. You can do a little bit of onions for seasoning, but they get carby when cooked. Look at keto peep's diaries to get a feel as well.