Anyone doing CKD or TKD for sports?

ssbbg
ssbbg Posts: 153 Member
Does anyone play with increased carbs to improve gym performance? Last year I was pretty strictly keto (20-30 g carbs) and didn't have problems with a fairly heavy load of biking and running (more endurance style). I was just starting out, so I was pretty slow. I did a bit of weight- machine work in the gym and made decent progress.

This year, I got more serious about the strength training and hired a personal trainer. I also loosened up on the diet (both by eating at maintenance and eating more carbs, though still typically eating below 100 g and generally still in ketosis based on blood ketone meter readings). I felt really strong at the gym and apparently managed to put on some muscle over 6 months. (The gym has a fancy multi-electrode BIA scale ("InBody") that says I gained 6 lbs of muscle while losing 4 lbs of fat... I was doubtful, but I had a DEXA scan last week, and the results matched the BIA numbers within error, so I guess it is ok). I doubt I could have the same results over the next 6 months since I imagine my "newbie gains" are nearing the end.

I'd like to lose the last bit of fat (ok, 30 lbs, so more than a bit) and I find it much easier to diet at lower carb levels (or higher blood ketone levels) because I am less hungry, but my gym performance tanked. I'm unable to add weight to the bar and in many cases I've had to take weight off compared to where I was before. I've become a stronger biker over the last 18 months, and I'm hitting the wall there too if I try to go fast or climb a hill. I could barely ride 15 minutes yesterday because there were hills. (I've done multiple century rides, so this is dramatically bad). I've been shooting for ~30 g carbs for the last two months...

I've previously tried increasing carbs around gym time (in January-February), but I find that makes me ravenously hungry. I've added some simple carbs as a pre- or during workout drink (about 30 g) and/or used 2% milk in my post-workout protein shake instead of water or almond milk. The failure of these experiments is why I took a break from eating very low carb/ actively dieting.

Has anyone played around with increased carbs to help athletic performance? What worked best for you?

Replies

  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,104 Member
    If you haven't read "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" by Phinney and Volek, I would highly recommend it...

    Additionally, I think we've posted here, but Darth Luiggi on Reddit/keto and on Instagram. He founded KetoGains...

    I'd definitely reach out.

    @ssbbg
  • ssbbg
    ssbbg Posts: 153 Member
    KnitOrMiss wrote: »
    If you haven't read "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" by Phinney and Volek, I would highly recommend it...

    Additionally, I think we've posted here, but Darth Luiggi on Reddit/keto and on Instagram. He founded KetoGains...

    I'd definitely reach out.

    @ssbbg

    @KnitOrMiss
    Thanks for the suggestions. I have read the "Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" several times. Based on their recommendations, I cut my carbs lower and reduced protein to drive blood ketones up. [This is actually where I've been for the last two months.] While my blood ketones did go up, my performance has not improved. I feel the book asserts if you go ultra-low carb (and low protein) and wait, then your performance will recover, (and if not you aren't being super keto enough...they talk about driving ketones to >1 mM). I'm not finding that to be true for me. There isn't really a strategy in the book for tuning diet for improving performance if going super keto doesn't work for you (unless I'm totally forgetting something).

    I've poked around Reddit/keto and the Ketogains website, and I've not found the answers I'm looking for. Maybe I do need to post to reddit about this, but I find MFP to be a friendlier place.


  • kpk54
    kpk54 Posts: 4,474 Member
    Have you looked into the research of Lyle McDonald? I'm not into athletics but it seems McDonald publishes considerably more about CKD and TKD than others. I'm guessing you've already been down that road but thought I'd mention his name just in case.
  • tcunbeliever
    tcunbeliever Posts: 8,219 Member
    I eat more carbs on lifting days (95g) than non-lifting days (30g). I don't eat the extra carbs before working out, I find that eating them AFTER I have finished my strength training is way more effective for hunger control. If I eat them in advance of my workout then I'm starving the next day. If I eat them after my workout, then my hunger is pretty controlled the next day.

    I do normally lift in the evening. For me a lifting day means no breakfast, some kind of light lunch that has some carbs like a salad, and dinner is my high carb meal for the day and can include some pasta or rice in limited quantity. I did have about a 3 week adaptation period where I fatigued way faster than normal, but that cleared up on it's own. Sometimes I have to stop and have extra salt if I start feeling woozy in the middle of a workout, but that's not very often anymore, I've gotten into the habit of just having some salt BEFORE the workout and that gets the job done.

    You said you have been doing this 2 months and are still having issues, so it's likely not just the adaptation phase anymore. You have been doing keto/LC for a while, so I'll assume you are getting plenty of salt (if not, add some). You also said you were still in ketosis at 100g/day, which seems quite likely given your activity level. So, if you are going to do keto for appetite suppression, maybe try 50g or 60g/day of carbs - not sure what your level is where you stop seeing the benefit. Or cycle it and do more carbs on the lifting days and keep to 30 on the non-lifting days. Carbs pre-workout do nothing for me, they don't seem to help me at all. Carbs post workout seems to help a great deal.

    If you decide to try carb cycling, just be aware that it will make the scale go all kinds of wonky with the water fluctuations.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    ssbbg wrote: »
    KnitOrMiss wrote: »
    If you haven't read "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" by Phinney and Volek, I would highly recommend it...

    Additionally, I think we've posted here, but Darth Luiggi on Reddit/keto and on Instagram. He founded KetoGains...

    I'd definitely reach out.

    @ssbbg
    Thanks for the suggestions. I have read the "Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" several times. Based on their recommendations, I cut my carbs lower and reduced protein to drive blood ketones up. [This is actually where I've been for the last two months.] While my blood ketones did go up, my performance has not improved. I feel the book asserts if you go ultra-low carb (and low protein) and wait, then your performance will recover, (and if not you aren't being super keto enough...they talk about driving ketones to >1 mM). I'm not finding that to be true for me. There isn't really a strategy in the book for tuning diet for improving performance if going super keto doesn't work for you (unless I'm totally forgetting something).

    I've poked around Reddit/keto and the Ketogains website, and I've not found the answers I'm looking for. Maybe I do need to post to reddit about this, but I find MFP to be a friendlier place.


    I don't think phinney and volek suggest lower protein but I think they aren't super clear on it either. They seem to recommend moderate,to moderately low protein, for maintenance levels calories which is often 0.8g protein per pound body weight (around maintenance). Others will go to 1g per pound.

    For a 150 lb person, that would be around 120g protein, or about 480 kcal. If trying to lose on 1500 kcal a day, that would be a protein macro of around 33%, but if maintenance calories were 2500kcal, then the same protein would be a moderate 20%. KWIM?

    I don't think protein would have an obvious impact on workouts at the gym though. ;)

    Your salt intake is enough? Some find they need upwards of 7000 mg of sodium. Low electrolytes can gave a big impact.

    TBH, I think carbs do often improve gym performance. Dr Peter Attia calls it a performance enhancing substance and compares it to caffeine (or even steroids or injected insulinif I remember right). TKD might be the way to go as long as hunger is not too big of an issue.

    Or even increase your carbs to 50g (net or total). You are active enough that you can be sure you'll be in ketosis still.

    But I'm not into weights much so I could be way off base with my thoughts. :) good luck.
  • tifano
    tifano Posts: 155 Member
    I always keep my carbs under 20 (I do total carbs not net), on lifting days I almost never go over 80 grams of protein and I will eat about 180 or more grams of fat. If I eat more carbs I feel super bloated and I get joint pain. Also I make sure my electrolytes are in balance.
  • RAC56
    RAC56 Posts: 433 Member
    And check out Keto Savage. He's a body builder who is super friendly, helpful and awesome. :)http://ketosavage.com/keto-savage-introduction-and-mission/