Keto, cholesterol, CAC and heart disease risk

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cstehansen
cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
After 3+ years of eating keto for BG control, I have read more than the average person about cholesterol because that seems to be the boogie man everyone points to when they try to say this WOE is dangerous. I am not a doctor, but I wanted to share some personal results that some may find interesting.

First, like many here, I started with high triglycerides (not sure the number, just that the doctor said too high), lowish HDL (40) and borderline high LDL (109). While eating this way, my results now tend to be trigs 50-79, HDL 73-79 and LDL 150-174.

For a traditional doctor, this LDL number suggests I need to be on a statin. I have opted against this for numerous reasons I will not go into here.

However, last year, I got a coronary artery calcium (CAC) test. This shows ACTUAL disease in the heart by measuring the amount of calcium that has built up. Typically, a score over 400 is considered high risk. It is also conventional wisdom in the medical community that once calcium starts to build up, the best you can hope for is to keep the growth of that number at less than 10% per year as average growth is somewhere around 15%

My score was 68, which may not sound bad, but for my age (a month before my 47th birthday), this put me in the 90th percentile in a bad way. At average growth rate, that would put me over 400 before I was 60.

After doing a boatload of research, I embarked on about 9 months of a protocol of high fish oil supplementation along with eating far more fatty fish to increase my omega 3 intake while also cutting as much of my omega 6 intake as was reasonable. I also started taking a high dose of vitamin K2 which is vital for directing calcium to bones and teeth and away from soft tissue.

I went back to get a repeat CAC this month and also got more blood work done. For the CAC, I not only had it done on the same machine, but they same operator doing the test/scoring. He came out afterwards with the results and asked, "what was your score last year?" with a funny look on his face. I told him had been a 68. He paused, looked back down at the paperwork as he handed it to me and said, "well, now it is 52." He really seemed baffled by this.

This is important because this represents actual REVERSAL of heart disease. Needless to say, I will continue my protocol and go get tested again in a few years with the hope that I can get back down to a 0.

As for the blood tests, my cholesterol was a normal (for me) 266 with LDL at 174, HDL at 73 and Trigs at 79, so this reversal came with, what is considered by mainstream medicine, dangerously high cholesterol.

Again, I am not a doctor. This is just an n=1 experiment. I am responsible only for my behaviors/choices. I am posting this because, I know some others in this group like @RalfLott have also had a CAC test and may be interested in what I have been doing and the results I was able to get.

I may not know for years or decades if I am making the right choices, but when I look at all my other lab values, and the only ones that seem to not look "good" are cholesterol, and the reason they are considered bad are heart disease, and I have verifiable evidence my heart disease is getting better, I am convinced I am taking the right actions for me.
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  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
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    Awesome. Thanks for sharing this. I love hearing these n=1 stories that confirm that we aren't all killing ourselves as the old school medical wisdom had promised with this sort of diet.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
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    @cstehansen - Congrats! Your TG & HDL results are encouraging.

    I had resisted the temptation to get a 2nd CAC test, but, given your report, I'm sorely tempted.

    FYI, there does appear to be some controversy over CAC scoring methods, which involves the weight to be assigned to plaque density v. volume. (I believe Michael Eades was the proponent of giving greater emphasis to density.)

  • retirehappy
    retirehappy Posts: 4,752 Member
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    Love this can't give it enough hearts.

    I seem to remember you would not be a good candidate for statins either, so getting the calcium to reduce is HUGE. I am very happy for you.
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
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    Love this can't give it enough hearts.

    I seem to remember you would not be a good candidate for statins either, so getting the calcium to reduce is HUGE. I am very happy for you.

    Good memory. According to one of the tests the doctor ran, I am 4.5 times more likely to have muscle pain from statins.

    On top of that, my dad went on them not too long ago and went from being the guy no one could believe was in his 70’s to seeming like he had late stage Alzheimer’s before going off them. Scared my mom to death seeing him like that.
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
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    RalfLott wrote: »
    @cstehansen - Congrats! Your TG & HDL results are encouraging.

    I had resisted the temptation to get a 2nd CAC test, but, given your report, I'm sorely tempted.

    FYI, there does appear to be some controversy over CAC scoring methods, which involves the weight to be assigned to plaque density v. volume. (I believe Michael Eades was the proponent of giving greater emphasis to density.)

    Do it. Knowledge is a good thing. I remember the video to which you are referring. I watched a few times, but can’t remember the details well. Either way, I figure score going down is not bad. Also, there is another marker called PLA Activity 2 that is also improved. I would probably botch it if I tried to explain it, but you can google it if you want. It going down seems like it would also correspond with lower risk of lesion rupture. So, all in all, great report.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
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    Thanks for starting this thread. I need to retest my CAC results from May 2018. Since it was 9.8 I know being 67 now I should expect it to be higher. My Vit D levels have been over 155 ng for two years with high dosage of Vit K2 so I am interested in new results.

    I will ask for the same machine and operator if possible.
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
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    cstehansen wrote: »

    Either way, I figure score going down is not bad.

    Amen. Can't argue that!

  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
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    RalfLott wrote: »
    cstehansen wrote: »

    Either way, I figure score going down is not bad.

    Amen. Can't argue that!

    I think I read a 10-20% annual increase in score is the norm. Being below 100 and trending down is positive.

    Lowering CAC score was once thought next to impossible.
  • canadjineh
    canadjineh Posts: 5,396 Member
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    Even keeping status quo on CAC would have been a win in 'normal' circumstances, but dropping it by that much is WOWZER! :mrgreen:
  • Time2LoseWeightNOW
    Time2LoseWeightNOW Posts: 1,730 Member
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    Awesome news! I know you are happy!

    I am wondering what a high dose of K2 would be? As I am taking it ,along with D3, but I don't know how much is too much.
    My CAC was total of 4 for years 0 thru age 53....eating anything I wanted. I found out I was diabetic, changed my eating style and acquired a total of 26 over 3 years of being diabetic, so it has me scared.
    At the moment, I take 2 -100 mg MK2 along with 4000mg D3 . I wonder if I should be taking more K2?

    Thanks for any help.
    Time2
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
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    Awesome news! I know you are happy!

    I am wondering what a high dose of K2 would be? As I am taking it ,along with D3, but I don't know how much is too much.
    My CAC was total of 4 for years 0 thru age 53....eating anything I wanted. I found out I was diabetic, changed my eating style and acquired a total of 26 over 3 years of being diabetic, so it has me scared.
    At the moment, I take 2 -100 mg MK2 along with 4000mg D3 . I wonder if I should be taking more K2?

    Thanks for any help.
    Time2

    I use the LifeExtension Super K which has 1500 mcg of K1 along with 1000 mcg of K2 as MK4 and 100 mcg of K2 as MK7. I take one at each meal, which is generally 2x a day. I do fast a couple days a month on average and usually have at least a couple days a month where I eat lunch and skip dinner because I'm not hungry.

    Since K2 is fat soluble, it should be taken when eating at least 20 g of fat which means any of my meals is going to have enough fat.
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
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    RalfLott wrote: »
    cstehansen wrote: »

    Either way, I figure score going down is not bad.

    Amen. Can't argue that!

    I messed up the name on that one test. It is LpPLA2 Activity. Here is a quick link with some basic info on it - https://labtestsonline.org/news/150129lppla2

    It was the only inflammation related test that had been high, but now all 4 (hsCRP, Fibrinogen and MPO being the others) are well into the optimal range.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,160 Member
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    cstehansen wrote: »
    Awesome news! I know you are happy!

    I am wondering what a high dose of K2 would be? As I am taking it ,along with D3, but I don't know how much is too much.
    My CAC was total of 4 for years 0 thru age 53....eating anything I wanted. I found out I was diabetic, changed my eating style and acquired a total of 26 over 3 years of being diabetic, so it has me scared.
    At the moment, I take 2 -100 mg MK2 along with 4000mg D3 . I wonder if I should be taking more K2?

    Thanks for any help.
    Time2

    I use the LifeExtension Super K which has 1500 mcg of K1 along with 1000 mcg of K2 as MK4 and 100 mcg of K2 as MK7. I take one at each meal, which is generally 2x a day. I do fast a couple days a month on average and usually have at least a couple days a month where I eat lunch and skip dinner because I'm not hungry.

    Since K2 is fat soluble, it should be taken when eating at least 20 g of fat which means any of my meals is going to have enough fat.

    Good question on K2 and sub types. LE Super.K contains what I take. I will not pig out on K1 but I have not heard of any side effects of K2 MK 4 or 7. MK4 has a half life of like 3 hours MK 7 is more like 3 days.

    For the last couple years I have been taking one 50,000 capsule of D3 daily. That is less than many take for like MS, etc. I DON'T recommend mega dosing anything to others. There are many factors to be monitored.

    I am removing joint deposits and need to get another CAC scoring to make sure it is not moving to my arteries.

    Last year the Doctor freaked at my 155+ ng levels. It was the same this year and she just asked my dosage without any warning because my labs were all WNL. She acknowledged max safe levels have not been established by hard science.
  • Time2LoseWeightNOW
    Time2LoseWeightNOW Posts: 1,730 Member
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    Awesome! thanks for the reply... It helps me to know that I'm not taking too much and could possible go up a little bit more. thanks again
  • RalfLott
    RalfLott Posts: 5,036 Member
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    Awesome! thanks for the reply... It helps me to know that I'm not taking too much and could possible go up a little bit more. thanks again

    Well, if your lab tests show a healthy level of Vitamin D (and calcium), you don't need to take more.

    But if your Vitamin D is tough to maintain, no reason not to up your dose.

    (I went from 3000 IU to 5000 IU to 20,000 IU/day for a while, then backed off to 10-15,000 IU - but not lower - to keep it above 65 ng/ml.)

    ;)
  • retirehappy
    retirehappy Posts: 4,752 Member
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    cstehansen wrote: »
    Love this can't give it enough hearts.

    I seem to remember you would not be a good candidate for statins either, so getting the calcium to reduce is HUGE. I am very happy for you.

    Good memory. According to one of the tests the doctor ran, I am 4.5 times more likely to have muscle pain from statins.

    On top of that, my dad went on them not too long ago and went from being the guy no one could believe was in his 70’s to seeming like he had late stage Alzheimer’s before going off them. Scared my mom to death seeing him like that.

    My husband was put on them a few years ago. After only a week or so, he could barely walk, his muscles were too painful. He tossed them and hasn't looked back. High chol. runs in his family and his is high, it is slightly better now that he is more lchf these days.

    My gene reports I can handle them if I need them, I have several genes and SNPS that indicate that. I'd rather just eat this way and not worry about LDL at all. My ratio of trigs/hdl are excellent now and I am barely over 200 for total chol.
  • Sunny_Bunny_
    Sunny_Bunny_ Posts: 7,140 Member
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    Are you in Zero Carb Health on Facebook?
    Just wondering because someone posted this yesterday and in the comments no one has a story of confirmed improvement like you do.
    I just thought I’d let you know just in case you are in that group and interested in sharing there.
    etdi6h5n7cv5.jpeg
  • Xerogs
    Xerogs Posts: 328 Member
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    LCHF has definitely lowered my triglycerides and helped with cholesterol. In my 30s I was put on a variety of statins because my blood work was trending in a bad way. I've since cut them back considerably thanks to a doctor who was listening to me and didn't want to keep pushing pills to solve a problem that has a lot to do with my heredity. After years of higher than normal triglycerides, low HDL, and relatively stable LDL I decided it was probably time to do a vascular test and calcium scoring test just to get a baseline. The vascular test came back normal except for a tiny amount of build up in my carotid artery but "nothing to be concerned about" <- tech's words. The calcium scoring came back at 0 which was a bit of a shock to me considering I am nearing 50 and been told by a number of doctors that because of my triglyceride and cholesterol plus being overweight meant I probably had some type of build up in my heart arteries.

    So now that I am getting out of my funk over the past month (series of unfortunate events) my goal is to lose my last 20lbs and ditch the medication all together and then retest a year after that. The tests are relatively inexpensive and worth the peace of mind.

    I am by no means a health professional but I think reducing inflammation (turmeric works well for me) in the body helps a great deal as well as some type of exercise. A persons genes also affect a lot of things, I know I will probably always have weird blood cholesterol and triglyceride results but knowing that helps me talk to my PCP and tailor things to meet my health needs. Higher doses of statin had an opposite effect on my blood work and made me feel like poo.
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
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    Are you in Zero Carb Health on Facebook?
    Just wondering because someone posted this yesterday and in the comments no one has a story of confirmed improvement like you do.
    I just thought I’d let you know just in case you are in that group and interested in sharing there.
    etdi6h5n7cv5.jpeg

    I am not in that group on FB. TBH, I joined a couple of carnivore groups when I was giving that a try and found the majority of the posts as intolerant and condescending as vegan groups for the most part. There were a few worthwhile posts, but not enough to make it worth sticking around. I am sure there are good ones and bad one.

    I did share on the Fat Head group where someone had posted something similar to what you copied above.