sleeping
2t9nty
Posts: 1,572 Member
All my life I have been a light sleeper. I go to sleep initially very readily. My head hits the pillow and I am out like a light in 5 minutes or so.
Once I have slept more than 4 or 5 hours, almost anything can wake me up, and I can't go back to sleep.
I reported this to my doctor 20 years ago or something. He ordered a sleep study, and I use a CPAP. It has not seemed to make much difference in the sleep patterns. If I am not awakened by anything I am usually OK for 7 or 8 hours of sleep.
I seem to be in a phase of very vivid dreams right now. They are not bad or seem to have any particular significance, but they will wake me up. The last one last night (this morning) woke me up at 2:45 or so. At 3:30 I gave up on going back to sleep.
I asked my doctor about this at my July appt. He thinks it is needing to pee that is waking me up and gave me something that is supposed to help me void more completely and presumably cut down on frequency. I don't see that it makes any difference. It is not doing anything for the waking up business.
There are two things going on as I see it. One is the light sleeper thing, and I think that is just my nature. The other is the vivid dreams which are disturbing the sleep. That second one is the thing that seems more productive to address.
Have you gone through phases of vivid dreams in keto? Is this the kind of thing that might be related to some imbalance that you are aware of?
Some possible additional information:
I went through a phase of the vivid dreams maybe 2 months after I started keto. I am now entering maintenance (sticking with the keto diet). It "might" have been the body's becoming "fat adapted" the last time and maybe it is part of the adjustment to maintenance process the body is going through now. Dunno...
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My understanding is that we dream every night but simply don't remember most of our dreams. It is when you wake up during your dream that you may have an opportunity to remember them. I find dreams to be fascinating and in fact have a notebook and pen in the nightstand beside my bed and periodically journal my dreams.
Yes, it is believed that certain foods can produce more vivid dreams. Cheese 1st come to mind. Actually perhaps high protein? Much can be read on google regarding high protein intake and dreams. B vitamins also. To the lover of dreams, these foods might be are our friend. To the person who finds dreams and dream recall a disruption to sleep, they are a foe.
A second thought is, your doctor may be right but perhaps rather than taking a medication to reduce urination frequency (whether it is working or not) perhaps consider reducing your intake of liquids? If my memory is serving me correctly, don't you drink a gallon a day of "ketoade"?
20 years ago you were prescribed a CPAP. You have lost 130+ pounds. Do you still use this CPAP (you indicate is ineffective)? I've have a few friends who have used them and they have talked about how disruptive they are to sleep. If you're still using it, perhaps discuss with your doc discontinuing use-I'm of course thinking your use might have been due to sleep disruption caused by obesity. Perhaps you'd sleep better now (130 pounds lighter) without it and it is waking you up?
I also have friends who talk about "sugar crashes" in the wee hours of the morning. Their's are presumably caused by "the excess wine getting out of their system". I recall you are T2D and regardless of the diet change couldn't low BG still be a problem in the wee hours? Doesn't low BG cause a release of cortisol and isn't cortisol the hormone that naturally wakes us? I don't really know about these things so it is just a thought.1 -
I should probably jot some notes down. The dreams themselves might be instructive or entertaining at least to be reminded of in the light of day.
You have a keen memory on the ketoade. I have been very intentional about keeping fluid intake high. The last time I tried to cut back on the fluids, I had issues with constipation. I know that is probably TMI. Maybe I did not give it enough time for the body to readjust.
I am used to the CPAP, and I don't think it is disrupting things. It might be time for another sleep study though to see if I still need it. I can check with the doctor at my next appt.
I am T2D. If I check BG when I get up, it is always in the 95-115 range regardless of when I get up. It could be there is a crash though, and it is already up and responding when my feet hit the floor. This is an interesting theory that might be hard to test.0 -
Side Note - when I first lost a lot of weight, I had to stop using my CPAP because the pressure setting was too high, and it was waking me up, similar to ask you describe. I also found myself with vivid dreams sometimes waking me up...
As for the blood sugar drop/cortisol release, I think it is Chris Masterjohn PhD who has some kind of heart rate/breathing count test thing that can tell you if you've had a burst of cortisol. L-Theanine might help here, as its an amino acid mainly used for help folks stay asleep...
Another way to tell would be to track your A1C and do the math to see if you're still having spikes in blood sugar. If you are, and you're testing with meals so that you know it's not then, it could easily occur overnight.
I also find that sleep hygiene has been crucial to me being able to go back to sleep, once I wake for whatever reason. I have a specific piece of music I play as I fall asleep. I can also use this to go BACK to sleep once I'm struggling, too. I am one whose head hits the pillow and in minutes I can be deep in a dream... I've dozed and woken from a deeply involved dream, etc.
Cold room, bluelight filter on my phone, no bright lights, no major scents in my room (essential oils would probably be okay, but I don't use them heavily), etc. No caffeine after the 2 pm slump zone. Getting D3/K2 first thing, then a boost of bright light again just after lunch helps the circadian rhythm to settle and reduce the cortisol bursts, etc.
Good luck getting some answers, and help, @2t9nty1 -
@KnitOrMiss
I really appreciate the thoughtful reply.
I am inclined to suspect I don't need the CPAP so much any more. I have tried sleeping without it, and my long-suffering wife tells me I snore without it. It was the snoring problem that had the doctor send me to the sleep study 20 years ago. I will ask the doctor about another sleep study at the new weight at my next appt.
My glucose average is an almost perfect predictor of my A1C. There is actually not much variability in it at this point in the keto diet. I had not thought of the A1C as a test for strange spikes at times I am not testing, but if there are nutso readings somewhere, they are getting balanced out for the A1C.
I will see if I can track down the cortisol test. I don't know breathing, but for a while I was checking bp and pulse within about 10 minutes of waking. This was pretty boring because I was always getting something like 115/65 with a pulse of 60. I was trying to make a case for going off the BP meds with my doctor, but his Nurse Ratchet always gets 130/80 (on meds) with a pulse of 72 in the examining room. Now she takes it the nanosecond I sit down, and she almost always takes it over my shirt. I claim if she gave me a few minutes for it to settle and let me take my shirt off, I would get closer to my own readings. I should add that I have body space issues. It is a perfect storm for the examining room bp.
I like a cooler bedroom. The phone is on the charger in the bathroom. The room is reasonably scent free, although you might not want to stick your head in the dirty clothes hamper. I drink coffee, and sometimes have a cup of at at 4 or so. The timing of the coffee does not seem to be it.
FWIW, I found a thread saying that marginally low sodium could produce poor sleep and no keto flu symptoms. I thought with the warmer weather I might need to boost the intake by 1000 mg a day for a while as an experiment. Last night was the first night after I had done this, and I woke up after a strange dream (that I did not write down). I peed and went right back to sleep. I slept a total of almost 8 hours last night, but there are lots of variables. I will stick with the higher sodium for a bit to see if it seems to make a difference.
So that is where I am.1 -
I, too, am a terribly light sleeper. I've had to use earplugs and "eye patches" to help keep noise and light out so that I can sleep better. If I wake up, it's troublesome to go back to sleep.
I haven't noticed any impact to my sleep as I've changed my diet over the years. I can't say that Low Carb has improved my sleep or impacted my dreams.
However, I do have a handful of people in my life who use a CPAP. One of them went to a sleep specialist who said that as you get better and more restful REM sleep, your dreams are more vivid. That it is an indicator of better quality of sleep.
So, for what it is worth perhaps your more vivid dreams are a marker of improvement in quality of sleep. That said, I use Melatonin supplements to help me sleep, many people report that melatonin provides for some freaky dreams. I haven't noticed it personally but perhaps there's a supplement you're using that's impacting your dreams.1 -
However, I do have a handful of people in my life who use a CPAP. One of them went to a sleep specialist who said that as you get better and more restful REM sleep, your dreams are more vivid. That it is an indicator of better quality of sleep.
So, for what it is worth perhaps your more vivid dreams are a marker of improvement in quality of sleep. That said, I use Melatonin supplements to help me sleep, many people report that melatonin provides for some freaky dreams. I haven't noticed it personally but perhaps there's a supplement you're using that's impacting your dreams.
Maybe ironically, the more restful sleep is producing more vivid dreams, and that is cutting into the amount of restful sleep. Maybe it is just a quality over quantity thing sometimes?
As unusual as this will sound on the forum, I am not taking any supplements these days.
Last night was <6 hours. I went to bed at 9 and woke up three times. The last time I could not get back to sleep.
I will say I feel pretty good.1 -
I've only averaged 6hrs a night since I went through puberty...um....a number of years ago.
if you're feeling well rested and good I would say don't worry about it too much. But OH the irony of better quality of sleep disrupting the quantity. lol2 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Side Note - when I first lost a lot of weight, I had to stop using my CPAP because the pressure setting was too high, and it was waking me up, similar to ask you describe. I also found myself with vivid dreams sometimes waking me up...
As for the blood sugar drop/cortisol release, I think it is Chris Masterjohn PhD who has some kind of heart rate/breathing count test thing that can tell you if you've had a burst of cortisol. L-Theanine might help here, as its an amino acid mainly used for help folks stay asleep...
Another way to tell would be to track your A1C and do the math to see if you're still having spikes in blood sugar. If you are, and you're testing with meals so that you know it's not then, it could easily occur overnight.
I also find that sleep hygiene has been crucial to me being able to go back to sleep, once I wake for whatever reason. I have a specific piece of music I play as I fall asleep. I can also use this to go BACK to sleep once I'm struggling, too. I am one whose head hits the pillow and in minutes I can be deep in a dream... I've dozed and woken from a deeply involved dream, etc.
Cold room, bluelight filter on my phone, no bright lights, no major scents in my room (essential oils would probably be okay, but I don't use them heavily), etc. No caffeine after the 2 pm slump zone. Getting D3/K2 first thing, then a boost of bright light again just after lunch helps the circadian rhythm to settle and reduce the cortisol bursts, etc.
Good luck getting some answers, and help, @2t9nty
When I first lost my weight I had to dial my CPAP setting of 12 down to 8 for the reasons you stated.
If I lay down I fall asleep quickly and typically for the next 6-8 hours.
Sleep varies so from person to person. I have had 36 oz of regular coffee at 9 pm and got in bed a few hours later and sleep all night however the coffee tends to force me out of bed the next morning.
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My son wore one when he was really overweight and as soon as he lost the weight he stopped and hasn't needed it. The downside for me when he needed one (and we didn't know and just thought he was a really noisy sleeper) was that before using it I always knew if he were home safely at night, now there is silence!! 2
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To follow up here, I asked my doctor for a new sleep study because of the weight loss. I went for it in November, and they suggested a lower pressure and a different mask. I have been sleeping somewhat better. My AHI number is down with the lower pressure, and I am not waking up so much.8
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@2t9nty
That's great. I tried to get in for a new sleep study before the end of the year (called several weeks ago), and they couldn't even get me in for the initial consult before the end of the year. I explained that since I've met my deductible, I can afford to do it before the end of the year, but I won't be able to afford it next year. They put me on a "cancellation" waiting list, and I've yet to hear back a single thing. It's SO frustrating.
I'd really rather have a dental appliance or something, as with my CPAP, due to the cold sleeping air and the heat of sleeping breath, I'd get a TON of condensation in my mask, to the point that I was breathing in the liquid, making me really ill, too, but they seem to think that it couldn't possibly help me.
I've even been to an ENT recently, who shoved a camera tube thing through my nasal area and down to my throat and said there is absolutely ZERO physical obstruction. He noticed a "slight" nasal skin inflammation, and completely discounted me when I explained that due to that inflammation, just at rest, sitting or standing, I felt about 50% reduced breathing passage clearance. He completely put me off and said to keep using the nasal sprays and to do the new sleep study, but that there is really nothing else he could do for me. I even brought up my past MRI of my head, which indicated the malformed sinus passage over my right eye, and evidence of "chronic sinus disease." He said that they could do surgical intervention of the chronic sinus disease (from google and asking friends, it seems that this is some kind of "sinus passage scraping" to rid the body of built up inflammation and allow it a chance to fight back or something, sometimes combined with antibiotics or steroids...), but that it wouldn't stop my snoring, and it wouldn't cure my apnea.
I indicated to him that the snoring and apnea were far less of an issue that the constriction of breathing passages I feel when sleeping and I feel like I can't breathe or don't get enough oxygen. He basically looked at me like I was crazy and a liar, and refused to do another single thing until I get another sleep study that I can't afford. *sigh*
I'm so glad you've had much better luck! Please keep us up to date!1 -
I feel like the day is coming when those home monitoring devices (like fitbit and such) will become acknowledged and used by the medical community, but that day doesn't seem to be here yet.2
