Let's talk about....... fat

VictoryGarden
VictoryGarden Posts: 194 Member
So I've seen several anecdotes on the LC forum here about people who's cholesterol has gone up, up, and away while on a LCHF/Keto diet for several years. Excess bacon and butter are ones that are frequently brought up. :wink:

So what kinds of fats would not raise cholesterol? Is it the plant based oils from Avocados, Olives, or Coconuts?

Or is it from animal based foods, like butter, pork, or beef fat?

Or is it both? Or neither?

I also keep reading that food fat truly has no connection at all with blood level cholesterol. Other places say "oh yes it does!". I've read both theories, each claiming the other is wrong.

So what kind of fat is a low carber to focus on? Anybody have any research or articles to help out with this? It seems like if this is to make up 70-75% of our diets, we ought to be eating the right type, if there even is such a thing....... ???????????

(Please note, not questing the LCHF diet, it's working for me and I love it, but I am trying to not jump out of the frying pan into the fire, so to speak!) :)

Replies

  • VictoryGarden
    VictoryGarden Posts: 194 Member
    Ahhh, so I see I overlooked this thread in the Open Threads area....

    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/37207800#Comment_37207800
  • VictoryGarden
    VictoryGarden Posts: 194 Member
    There is more to this article, including loads of links, so here is the link: https://www.everydayhealth.com/ketogenic-diet/diet/best-worst-fats-eat-on-keto-diet/

    Personal note, Nuts & nut butters are a kind of trap for me. I tend to overeat those, so I portion the nuts out to only a couple times a week, and just try to avoid the nut butter (usually PB), unless I am just utterly craving it. It really slows down my progress.

    I don't know a darn thing about flax seeds or chia seeds, so I guess that is something to look into.

    Am a little disappointed to hear about the Coconut oil. I tried adding the dregs from the container at home to my coffee last week, and really enjoyed it! I think I will just have to use it sparingly, along with butter. :(

    The 5 Best Fats to Eat Plenty of on the Ketogenic Diet
    1. Avocado
    Though technically a fruit, avocados offer a rich source of heart-healthy monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs). They're also packed with fiber to bolster digestive health. One-half of an avocado contains 161 calories, 2 grams (g) of protein, 15 g of fat, 9 g of total carbs, and 7 g of fiber (bringing it to 2 g of net carbs), notes the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).

    2. Olive Oil
    “We know that when we have fats in our diet like MUFAs, they not only fill us up but keep cholesterol levels lower,” says Keatley. Olive oil is great for light sauteing, using in dressings, or drizzling over cooked meats or vegetables as a finishing oil. One tablespoon (tbsp) offers 119 calories and 13.5 g of fat, only 2 g of which are saturated fat, according to the USDA.

    3. Avocado Oil
    Like olive oil, avocado oil is rich in anti-inflammatory MUFAs, but the benefit to using avocado oil is that it stands up to high-heat cooking. For instance, the popular brand Chosen Foods says its avocado oil has a smoke point of 500 degrees F. According to the USDA, 1 tbsp of avocado oil has 124 calories, 14 g of fat, and 0 g of carbohydrates.

    4. Nuts and Nut Butter
    Nuts may offer unsaturated fats, but they also contain carbs, so look at the label to calculate exactly what you’re getting, says Whitmire. As an example, 1 tbsp of almond butter has 98 calories, 3 g of protein, 9 g of fat, 3 g of total carbs, and about 1.5 g of fiber (equaling about 1.5 g of net carbs), per the USDA. And, the USDA also notes, a 1-ounce (oz) serving of almonds (23 almonds) has 164 calories, 6 g of protein, 14 g of fat, 6 g of carbohydrates, and 3.5 g of fiber (totaling about 2.5 g net carbs).

    5. Chia Seeds and Flaxseed
    Whitmire recommends these because they offer omega-3 fatty acids. “Getting more of these fats will improve the ratio of omega-6s to 3s you consume, which some research suggests optimizes health,” she says. For example, an article published in September 2016 in the journal Open Heart cited research that linked consuming more omega-3s and fewer omega-6s (which are high in Western diets) to a lower risk of insulin resistance — the hallmark of type 2 diabetes — and obesity, among other protective health benefits. The USDA says 1 oz of chia seeds has 138 calories, 5 g of protein, 9 g of fat, 12 g of carbs, and a whopping 10 g of fiber (so only 2 net carbs). And also according to the USDA, 1 tbsp of ground flaxseed has 37 calories, 1 g of protein, 3 g of fat, 2 g of carbs, and 2 g of fiber (basically 0 net carbs). Just be sure to buy ground flaxseed so your body can absorb their omega-3s.


    The 4 Fats You Should Limit on the Keto Diet
    1. Cheese
    A slice of cheese contains 115 calories, 7 g of protein, 9 g of fat (5 g of saturated fat), about ½ g of carbohydrate, and no fiber, per the USDA. The saturated fat qualifies it as a food you ought to limit, but some research suggests the food has health benefits as well. A meta-analysis published in December 2017 in the European Journal of Nutrition found that cheese eating was associated with a 10 percent lower risk of heart disease and stroke, particularly for those consuming about 1.5 oz (or a slice and a half) per day.

    2. Cream
    Adding heavy cream or half-and-half to your coffee is one way to get an additional source of fat into your day, says Keatley. Just realize that it is a source of saturated fat — and, given the small serving size, it’s easy to go overboard. According to the USDA, 1 tbsp has 51 calories, 5 g of fat (3.5 g saturated fat), and is just shy of ½ g of carbohydrate.

    3. Coconut Oil
    Given that coconut oil is trendy, it’s been credited as a panacea for health ills — and given the general go-ahead to consume as much as you want. That’s not exactly the case. “There’s a controversy with coconut oil because of its high levels of saturated fats, which are the ones that clog arteries,” says Keene. But the argument some make is that coconut oil is different. Part of its fat is made up of medium-chain triglycerides, fatty acids that the body metabolizes quicker and are less likely to get stored by the body as fat, she says. That said, the USDA indicates that 1 tbsp has 121 calories, 13 g of fat (11 g are saturated fat), and 0 carbohydrates. Eat healthier unsaturated sources of fat first, and moderate amounts of these saturated sources, says Keene.

    4. Butter
    “Eating a significant amount of butter has some of the worst effects on your health compared with other fats,” says Keatley. It’s okay to use butter in your fat rotation, but best not to make it your go-to fat; instead opt for more unsaturated sources. Per the USDA, 1 tbsp of butter has 102 calories, 12 g of fat (7 g of which are saturated fat), and 0 carbohydrates.

    The Worst Fat You Could Eat on the Keto Diet
    Trans Fat
    Everyone — not just those on a keto diet — should stay away from consuming added trans fats. While these are naturally found in some meat and milk (though you’re probably avoiding milk on keto because of its higher carb count), according to the USDA, they’re often added to processed foods. “If you’re eating a lot of packaged products, you’re probably getting more trans fats than you think you are,” says Keatley.

    Last Updated:10/22/2018
  • Fivepts
    Fivepts Posts: 517 Member
    Thanks, this is extremely helpful.
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    I dunno, @baconslave. I think the stats are that something like 30% see a rise of LDL on keto.

    But I'd agree that fixing insulin sensitivity is a bigger win. And TG/HDL is a pretty good proxy.

    Nothing wrong with increasing the salmon in your diet, though. And Dr Phinney loves his olive oil. :)
  • baconslave
    baconslave Posts: 7,018 Member
    edited March 2019
    wabmester wrote: »
    I dunno, @baconslave. I think the stats are that something like 30% see a rise of LDL on keto.

    But I'd agree that fixing insulin sensitivity is a bigger win. And TG/HDL is a pretty good proxy.

    Nothing wrong with increasing the salmon in your diet, though. And Dr Phinney loves his olive oil. :)

    I defer. You'd know better about specific stats than me. :smile:
    Though my argument is that LDL rise might not be of concern if the majority is large LDL. It hinges on particle size. That's just my understanding of it anyway.
    No one could argue with the benefits of a good hunk of salmon or olive oil.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    Wab's back!! \o/

    The LDL rise is generally a "false" one, though, due to how it's measured (and that fact that it's not directly measured in most cases).

    Two things end up factoring in:

    1. The typical formula is known to start breaking down at very high and very low triglyceride levels. Low carb nearly always makes triglycerides plummet, since they're affected by sugar.

    2. Low carb is known to increase LDL particle size and density, while the test measures concentration, which didn't differentiate between the two. An increase in particle size is a good thing, as it makes it act more like HDL, but it reads as "bad" on a concentration test.

    As for the above list on what fats to include and what ones to avoid, it reads as typical conventional wisdom that still hasn't gotten the memo that saturated fats aren't bad.

    Saturated fats do not clog arteries and are in fact better for cellular health than polyunsaturated fats.

    In fact, the preformed K2 and butyric acid in butter (especially high quality) help heal and prevent athlerosclerosis.

    Enjoy your olive and avocado oils. I think everyone agrees that monounsaturated fats are healthy.

    Likewise, avoid artificial trans fats. Everyone agrees those are bad.

    Polyunsaturated are a bit sketchy. Omega-3 in particular is healthy, but too much Omega-6 is inflammatory, and all of them oxidize easily when subjected to heat, especially when they've been isolated into just oil. If you want to consume polyunsaturated fats, then favor whole food forms (fish, eggs, flax/hemp/chia seeds, etc) and avoid heating them too much.

    Check out the Launch Pad, there are a bunch of articles there. I definitely recommend reading Dr. Peter Attia's series on cholesterol and his talk on the history of the anti-saturated-fat push, in particular.
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    edited March 2019
    OK, this is obviously a controversial topic. Here's how I like to think about it: plaque requires both endothelium damage and apoB.

    Better to remove the damaging factors. Smoking is an obvious one that's easy to control. Others, like blood pressure, stress, hormones, sleep patterns are not so easy to control.

    Insulin resistance is a huge factor that can be controlled. But if your apoB increases as a result, you have an increased risk vs somebody else with the same fasting insulin and lower apoB.

    So think of lower apoB as bonus points. Focus on the big stuff first, and if you want to reduce risk even more, then sub out SFA (which increases apoB in some people) with n-3 and MUFA.

    Edited to add that all LDL particles have an apoB. Current thinking is that small/dense LDL might be worse because it's misshapen, so LDL receptors miss them, and they stay in circulation longer.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    edited March 2019
    My tuna comes packed in olive oil but the main healthy fat that I use is coconut oil since it is mostly MCT oil naturally.

    https://draxe.com/mct-oil/
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    I tend to avoid polyunsatursted seed oils. They do lower generally total and ldl cholesterol, but I have not seen that shown to improve cvd. I have seen it increases cancer risk and all cause mortality. Even if it does increase cvd deaths risk (which I haven't read) I'd rather go that way than from cancer. :#

    If I skip polyunsaturated vegetable/seed oils, and avoid trans fats, that leaves fatty fruit oils like olive, avocado, coconut and nuts, as well as animal fats (meat,dairy, seafood and eggs), all of which are a mixture of fats.

    In my mind, naturally fatty sources are good. If I have to wonder how the hell they got oil from it then I dont eat it.... how do they get oil from corn or soy?!
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    Unpopular opinion, but I think jury is still out on n-6. Yes, it oxidizes, but your body knows how to deal with oxidation. Issue might be dosage. Exceed body's antioxidant threshold, and stuff breaks.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    wabmester wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion, but I think jury is still out on n-6. Yes, it oxidizes, but your body knows how to deal with oxidation. Issue might be dosage. Exceed body's antioxidant threshold, and stuff breaks.

    I expect in 20 years from now most all of our pet opinions will be laughable perhaps. :)

    The more I work to understand epigenetics and quantum mechanics the more I see how two people with 180 degree opposing thoughts can both be right. Even the differences in the human microbiota can mean two people taking the same action can yet get very different results.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    The way I look at it is this:

    What fatty acids does our body store in our fat stores and therefore burn when needed?

    While there's a little variation in the ratios of specific fatty acids from diet, our body fat composition is something like just under half saturated, just under half monounsaturated, and the remainder polyunsaturated. This ratio stays fairly constant, regardless of your diet.

    This means that if you ate nothing and relied totally on body fat for fuel, your fuel would consist of that ratio.

    And the body is perfectly happy to do so. In fact, fasting and weight loss both have significant health benefits that exceed the lost weight itself.

    Now, maybe you're thinking that all omnivorous animals store fat in the same ratios. Here's the kicker - they don't. Actually, our ratios are most similar to that of cattle, who aren't omnivores at all! And here's a fun one for you -- black bears, who are very much omnivores, have fat that is almost entirely oleic acid, the fatty acid olive oil is prized for!

    There are genes that influence whether a person should eat more monounsaturated vs saturated fats, but generally speaking, I see no reason to actively avoid or favor one over the other.

    With PUFAs, I don't think they're "bad" on their own, but where we run into trouble is a) the sheer volume pushed by conventional wisdom, to the exclusion of most everything else, and b) the horrible sources from which they come and how they're produced conventionally. A pescatarian with a high PUFA diet from fish, nuts, seeds, and other whole food sources, is probably far better off than someone on a "heart healthy" diet where most of their fats come from things like corn, soy, and canola oils (which are generally chemically and/or high-heat extracted, both of which severely damage the acids).
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    So instead of "you are what you eat," you would reframe that as "eat what you are." :)
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    wabmester wrote: »
    So instead of "you are what you eat," you would reframe that as "eat what you are." :)

    lol, basically. (Though that could probably go down a really dark path if taken too literally...)

    Or maybe, "you are what you eat what you are"? :lol:
  • fdhunt1
    fdhunt1 Posts: 222 Member
    Dragonwolf wrote: »
    wabmester wrote: »
    So instead of "you are what you eat," you would reframe that as "eat what you are." :)

    lol, basically. (Though that could probably go down a really dark path if taken too literally...)

    Or maybe, "you are what you eat what you are"? :lol:

    Worked for the Donner party.
  • Shadioutwo
    Shadioutwo Posts: 36 Member
    edited March 2019
    There is so much competing information about fats. I dont' eat meats but do eat cheese, cream and grass-fed butters every day but like to use nut oils as my main fat source and use La Tourangelle walnut, pistachio, pecan, almond oils on my salads.
    I also eat quite a few pumpkin seeds as a healthy source of fat.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    I was reading some stuff from Peter Attia about fats and red meats. I like red meat but there seems to be some question as to if and associated fats is bad or not.

    One thing that jumped at me from one study saying it was bad also show red meat eaters were much heavier into alcohol and smoking. Talking about confounding factors. :)
  • ccrdragon
    ccrdragon Posts: 3,374 Member
    I was reading some stuff from Peter Attia about fats and red meats. I like red meat but there seems to be some question as to if and associated fats is bad or not.

    One thing that jumped at me from one study saying it was bad also show red meat eaters were much heavier into alcohol and smoking. Talking about confounding factors. :)

    This is the basic issue with just about every study out there that tries to paint red meat and fat as bad - they have no way to isolate/eliminate confounding factors and just want to point the finger at the issue that they (the researchers) think is the 'bad' problem.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    edited March 2019
    ccrdragon wrote: »
    I was reading some stuff from Peter Attia about fats and red meats. I like red meat but there seems to be some question as to if and associated fats is bad or not.

    One thing that jumped at me from one study saying it was bad also show red meat eaters were much heavier into alcohol and smoking. Talking about confounding factors. :)

    This is the basic issue with just about every study out there that tries to paint red meat and fat as bad - they have no way to isolate/eliminate confounding factors and just want to point the finger at the issue that they (the researchers) think is the 'bad' problem.

    Exactly this. How often have we seen things like "these people cut out meat
    and quit smoking and quit drinking and started exercising
    ! Look how much healthier they are!"?

    Then, there's the whole thing that started it all - the studies "showing" that saturated fats are bad....that didn't differentiate between saturated and trans fats...

    Confounding factors? What confounding factors?

    And this is held up in the nutrition science arena as the gold standard or something. WTF?

    Oh, and then there's "all-cause mortality." Or, as I put it, "your diet caused you to get hit by a bus."
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    "age-adjusted [CHD] mortality rates having declined to about one-third of their 1960s baseline by 2000"

    "47% of the decline in CHD mortality rate ... attributable to evidence-based medical and surgical treatments while reductions in major risk factors contributed about 44%"

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5268076/

    If you'd like to see a breakdown of those risk factor effects, it's pretty interesting. Yes, smoking was reduced (attributed to a 12% reduction in CHD deaths). But obesity and diabetes increased more than offsetting that benefit.

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMsa053935?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

    lw8xvuego8f6.jpg
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    I'm not saying there aren't studies that properly account for different factors. My complaints are about the ones that claim X single thing does/doesn't contribute to Y result, but confounding factors are hand-waved away or lumped into the same category. Case in point - the juxtaposition of trans and naturally-occurring saturated fats and subsequent blaming of saturated fats for trans fats' crimes.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    Studies are great and so is the power of epigenetics which controls the expression of our genes. In the end the only study that cares any real weight is the results of our own n=1.
  • canadjineh
    canadjineh Posts: 5,396 Member
    wabmester wrote: »
    Unpopular opinion, but I think jury is still out on n-6. Yes, it oxidizes, but your body knows how to deal with oxidation. Issue might be dosage. Exceed body's antioxidant threshold, and stuff breaks.

    I expect in 20 years from now most all of our pet opinions will be laughable perhaps. :)

    The more I work to understand epigenetics and quantum mechanics the more I see how two people with 180 degree opposing thoughts can both be right. Even the differences in the human microbiota can mean two people taking the same action can yet get very different results.

    Yep, lol.... wave or particle? ;)