I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.

"The term “pro-choice” should really embody all of the “pro” stances on every issue; it shouldn’t just define one issue. When someone refers to themselves as pro-choice, what choice are they referring to? Abortion. So what they are saying is that they believe it is fine for someone to obtain an abortion, which makes them pro-abortion. If you believe people have the right to form and join unions even if you would never join one, you are pro-union. Would you be angry that someone referred to you as pro-union? Would you say I just believe in the choice to join a union, but I am not pro-union? Of course not.
The use of the word choice shows that it is all about the stigma of being called pro-abortion; is there a stigma if there is nothing wrong with abortion? Why would people be so opposed to being referred to as pro-abortion if abortion is perfectly acceptable"?

Actually, I'm not pro-union, but I believe it is someone's right to choose to join a union, if they so desire. I would indeed be rather cross if someone said that my belief in freedom of choice made me 'pro-union'. In that regard, as in this, I would say I'm pro-choice.

I think I've made my feelings on the topic fairly clear already, so I won't rehash them here. However, my stance is based on my belief that an individual's right to choose how they treat an unwanted pregnancy should be theirs, and theirs alone. I don't believe that their options should be circumscribed by the beliefs and feelings of others, or by legislation. The reason I would say that I am 'pro-choice', rather than 'pro-abortion' is that my beliefs are based on my feelings about the mechanism of choice and individual freedom of self-determination, rather than about abortion itself. If I said I was 'pro-abortion', I would be implying that I was anti-adoption, and anti-keeping-the-child, which I am not.

Really curious why those who don't mind a woman having an abortion find it so horrible to be called pro-abortion? Why don't you like that term?

See above

There are some circumstances where I see abortion as acceptable = incest, rape, medical problems.
Non acceptable = birth control. Some women have had many abortions. Pretty sure those women are pro abortion though they'd probably never say it out loud.But those are my own personal moral beliefs. It is not for the big G to step in and make you explain - like any of them have a moral leg to stand on.

A victim of rape or incest need not then be subjected to having to explain their subsequent actions to me, the government, or anyone else for that matter. Their situation is hard enough as is their choice. Though this is the exception not the rule - it's none of my business.

That's what I mean when I say I am pro choice, not pro abortion. You can pick at my choice of words if you like. I guess in some circumstances technically I would be seen as pro abortion.

Why is abortion okay in some circumstances, but not others? Why is abortion not considered an acceptable method of "birth control", which really just means preventing a child from being born? I am 100% pro-abortion, and I'm not sorry about it.

I am on a monthly birth control pill, like countless other women, because I want to be responsible and safe about the sexual relationship I have and enjoy with my boyfriend. Why, if this method fails, is it not acceptable that I would abort the pregnancy? Why would it be unacceptable if we were married, but did not want to bring a child into the world? I feel like you're either okay with abortion or not - the dancing around on rape and incest cases is just ridiculous. If a woman wants to pay $300-$500 per abortion, I'm fine with that - it's not coming out of my pocket, and frankly it's none of my business. It's her money and her body, and if she wishes to go through multiple surgical procedures, who am I to say no?

This is MY own moral belief - I'm not about to push it on someone else - hence pro choice. I'm not going to list every circumstance where I feel it's OK VS not OK because ultimately it isn't my choice or my business. It's the choice of the woman in whatever circumstances she is in.

In reality I think the pro-life people should actually change what they call themslves. I think they should be anti choice, because that is what they are.

I am absolutely, 100% anti-choice when it comes to abortion. I have no problem with that label. Being pro-choice means that you are open and okay with abortion, making you pro-abortion "if the woman chooses". No?

I am 100% pro-abortion, and I'm not sorry about it.

Thank you! Finally someone who claims to be pro-choice will voice that they're pro-abortion. I respect and appreciate your honesty.

Catching up here so pardon any serial posting. It was a busy morning and I was shirking my duties as a computer sloth. :laugh:

Hmmmm....okay, since we're pretending here....let's suppose the Catholic church decided that animals have souls and should be treated the same way as humans. Then, yes, I would consider slaughtering an animal for food murder. If it were made illegal, then, yes, I would support punishment for the offenders.

OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong. If we were back in Prohibition times you'd be the woman preaching about the evils of alcohol (I don't mean that in a religious way) and I'd be in my basement making small amounts of personal use only homemade wine saying it's none of the government's damn business if I want to have a glass of wine every once in a while.

OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong.

I don't know that I'd be screaming about the evils of drinking, but I wouldn't have been drinking if it were illegal. Just as I won't smoke marijuana because it's illegal, whether or not I buy into the argument that the effects are the same as alcohol.

OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong. If we were back in Prohibition times you'd be the woman preaching about the evils of alcohol (I don't mean that in a religious way) and I'd be in my basement making small amounts of personal use only homemade wine saying it's none of the government's damn business if I want to have a glass of wine every once in a while.

:laugh: I'd be joining you in the basement. Can we add a small whiskey still?

To say I am 'pro-abortion' creates too narrow a definition of my views.

But to say you're "pro-abortion if the woman chooses" would be correct?

For me, it's not about the abortion, it's about the choice. My personal views on abortion don't matter. What matters to me is that the woman should be allowed to choose freely for herself. If she chooses abortion, I will support her in that choice, regardless of my own personal feelings.

Exactly.

Really curious why those who don't mind a woman having an abortion find it so horrible to be called pro-abortion? Why don't you like that term?

It doesn't make any sense to call a pro choice person "pro abortion."(as a movement) If its fair to call pro-choicers "pro abortion" it is equally fair to call them "pro life" because they are equally supportive of that too. Most pro choice people would like to actually lower the number of unwanted pregnancies before they occur. I also know people who do not want to take legal abortion away but do not like abortion at all, they consider themselves pro choice. There are just too many opinions in the pro choice group to call everyone "pro abortion".

Beautifully put - thank you.

Thank you.

To say I am 'pro-abortion' creates too narrow a definition of my views.

But to say you're "pro-abortion if the woman chooses" would be correct?

For me, it's not about the abortion, it's about the choice. My personal views on abortion don't matter. What matters to me is that the woman should be allowed to choose freely for herself. If she chooses abortion, I will support her in that choice, regardless of my own personal feelings.

Ah, but in the "pro-choice" movement, it IS about the abortion. I understand what you're trying to say, but to me that's just double-talking. If you are "pro-choice", then you are "pro-abortion if the woman chooses". I am pro-life and anti-abortion, and anti-choice.

Technically yes, you are right. I don't think it's for me or the government to decide what is right for all women, so yes, if a woman decides to abort, it's not for me to question why. You can say I am pro abortion in that respect. The personal choices I would make are mine, and theirs are theirs. When I say I am not pro abortion I mean for me personally - generally speaking you are correct.

I also don't consider an embryo to be an innocent who needs to be protected. I think the mother needs to e protected more. If she has no health care, no job, no home, can't afford her own bills, etc how is she supposed to handle a pregnancy? What about kids she already has? I know you see it as a baby and you want to protect it the same as you would a born child but unless and until we as a society can protect born people and take care of those who can't take care of themselves we have no business trying to make sure there are more born people who we as a society will scorn and ignore.

I could not have said this better myself. The unfortunate fact is that many "pro-life" people are willing to protect the fetus for just that long - until birth, and then after that it becomes "the mother's problem". There may be some exceptions, but most pro-life people are also against welfare and other government programs to help all these "children" they are supposedly saving. To me it just seems like there's no foresight involved - okay, so we make abortion illegal - then what? What happens when all those parents can't afford their children, or there is an influx of adoptees?

Also, I have to bring this point up: not everyone is cut out to be a parent. If a young person announces that they are going to get a puppy, people remind them of the high cost of vet care, the long-term commitment and the "down" days. I don't know about you, but I know a lot of people who have children who shouldn't. I'm probably biased here because I don't really think every person has a right to reproduce (but that's another thread), but I feel like there are certain people in the world who just have no business breeding. And again, with 7 billion people in the world and rising, more birth control is a good thing, be it through abstinence, oral contraception or abortions.

Sorry, but ever single pro-life person I know believes that we need to keep the safety nets we have in our society. They also support the women beyond the birth (most Catholic parishes I know have "adopted" a women's service facility and buy all the things the mothers need for their children in addition to providing spiritual support if needed and for those who are kicked out of their houses, some open their homes for the women). So, while the media and NARAL and PP would tell you we're a bunch of heartless people who don't care about the women, the reality is that we DO care for the women, way more than the likes of PP, NOW, or NARAL does.

Again, I invite any pro-choicers to go to your local clinic and askthose praying outside about the women's crisis pregnancy centers in your area, the churches, and all the support that is available for women with a crisis pregnancy situation. That is the only way you will learn the truth of the situation.

I HEARTILY disagree. If most pro-lifers were also pro LIFE and not just pro fetus then the entire Republican party would be completely revamped. They would be demanding increased funding for education, teaching safe sex, increasing government assistance for the poor, and demanding universal health care. They are the opposite of all of those though while still demanding that abortion be made illegal.

I've also been to a crisis pregnancy center and have spoken with the people praying outside of clinics. I went to a clinic for BCP when I was in college. One day when they were just shouting but not throwing food or rocks or cursing I decided to have a chat since I didn't have to cover my head and run inside. A woman grabbed my arm (that happened so often I don't even count it as an assault, not compared to what usually happened.) and yelled "Please don't kill your baby!" I stopped and decided to engage her. I asked if she would pay my medical bills. No she said. I asked if she would drive me to doctor appointments. No. I asked if she would let me life with her when my parents kicked me out. No. I asked if she would adopt it. No. It was like the children's story of Henny Penny. Everyone wants Henny Penny to go through it all without themselves getting involved or going out of their way but they all want the result of Henny Penny's efforts.

I also went to a crisis clinic once. I had a pregnancy scare and saw an ad in the campus newspaper for a free pregnancy test. Being a naive suburban girl I assumed it was just that. Nope. They had me do the pee in a cup thing within a few minutes of walking in the door. While we waited for the test they sat me down and asked what I would do if I was pregnant. Like I said, naive suburban girl - I told them I'd abort. They were appalled and did everything from telling me my options to berating me when I made it clear that I wasn't going to change my mind. I asked a few times if the test was done and they'd say "Soon." then get into it again. I was lectured at, scolded, berated, called names, etc. I finally said enough and said I'd go somewhere else for a test. By then I'd been sitting there waiting for the results for over 40 minutes. I had no idea they were only supposed to take about 2 minutes. They stalled so they could try to change my mind and attack me.

When I got up to leave they said they wanted to check the test because "it should be done by now." I wasn't pregnant. I'll never, ever forget the look of disappointment on their faces and the sound of it in their voices when they told me. You'd think they'd be happy that an 18yo college girl who was going to abort if she was pregnant turned out to not be pregnant. But they weren't. I honestly think they just wanted to use it as an opportunity to continue to attack me.

I also don't consider an embryo to be an innocent who needs to be protected. I think the mother needs to e protected more. If she has no health care, no job, no home, can't afford her own bills, etc how is she supposed to handle a pregnancy? What about kids she already has? I know you see it as a baby and you want to protect it the same as you would a born child but unless and until we as a society can protect born people and take care of those who can't take care of themselves we have no business trying to make sure there are more born people who we as a society will scorn and ignore.

I could not have said this better myself. The unfortunate fact is that many "pro-life" people are willing to protect the fetus for just that long - until birth, and then after that it becomes "the mother's problem". There may be some exceptions, but most pro-life people are also against welfare and other government programs to help all these "children" they are supposedly saving. To me it just seems like there's no foresight involved - okay, so we make abortion illegal - then what? What happens when all those parents can't afford their children, or there is an influx of adoptees?

Also, I have to bring this point up: not everyone is cut out to be a parent. If a young person announces that they are going to get a puppy, people remind them of the high cost of vet care, the long-term commitment and the "down" days. I don't know about you, but I know a lot of people who have children who shouldn't. I'm probably biased here because I don't really think every person has a right to reproduce (but that's another thread), but I feel like there are certain people in the world who just have no business breeding. And again, with 7 billion people in the world and rising, more birth control is a good thing, be it through abstinence, oral contraception or abortions.

Sorry, but ever single pro-life person I know believes that we need to keep the safety nets we have in our society. They also support the women beyond the birth (most Catholic parishes I know have "adopted" a women's service facility and buy all the things the mothers need for their children in addition to providing spiritual support if needed and for those who are kicked out of their houses, some open their homes for the women). So, while the media and NARAL and PP would tell you we're a bunch of heartless people who don't care about the women, the reality is that we DO care for the women, way more than the likes of PP, NOW, or NARAL does.

Again, I invite any pro-choicers to go to your local clinic and askthose praying outside about the women's crisis pregnancy centers in your area, the churches, and all the support that is available for women with a crisis pregnancy situation. That is the only way you will learn the truth of the situation.

I HEARTILY disagree. If most pro-lifers were also pro LIFE and not just pro fetus then the entire Republican party would be completely revamped. They would be demanding increased funding for education, teaching safe sex, increasing government assistance for the poor, and demanding universal health care. They are the opposite of all of those though while still demanding that abortion be made illegal.

I've also been to a crisis pregnancy center and have spoken with the people praying outside of clinics. I went to a clinic for BCP when I was in college. One day when they were just shouting but not throwing food or rocks or cursing I decided to have a chat since I didn't have to cover my head and run inside. A woman grabbed my arm (that happened so often I don't even count it as an assault, not compared to what usually happened.) and yelled "Please don't kill your baby!" I stopped and decided to engage her. I asked if she would pay my medical bills. No she said. I asked if she would drive me to doctor appointments. No. I asked if she would let me life with her when my parents kicked me out. No. I asked if she would adopt it. No. It was like the children's story of Henny Penny. Everyone wants Henny Penny to go through it all without themselves getting involved or going out of their way but they all want the result of Henny Penny's efforts.

I also went to a crisis clinic once. I had a pregnancy scare and saw an ad in the campus newspaper for a free pregnancy test. Being a naive suburban girl I assumed it was just that. Nope. They had me do the pee in a cup thing within a few minutes of walking in the door. While we waited for the test they sat me down and asked what I would do if I was pregnant. Like I said, naive suburban girl - I told them I'd abort. They were appalled and did everything from telling me my options to berating me when I made it clear that I wasn't going to change my mind. I asked a few times if the test was done and they'd say "Soon." then get into it again. I was lectured at, scolded, berated, called names, etc. I finally said enough and said I'd go somewhere else for a test. By then I'd been sitting there waiting for the results for over 40 minutes. I had no idea they were only supposed to take about 2 minutes. They stalled so they could try to change my mind and attack me.

When I got up to leave they said they wanted to check the test because "it should be done by now." I wasn't pregnant. I'll never, ever forget the look of disappointment on their faces and the sound of it in their voices when they told me. You'd think they'd be happy that an 18yo college girl who was going to abort if she was pregnant turned out to not be pregnant. But they weren't. I honestly think they just wanted to use it as an opportunity to continue to attack me.

Ha ha I went to one of those clinics too. We cried and prayed (I was 17 and a huge cry baby) and then they convinced me how birth control and condoms are completely useless lol IMO they should have a sign over the door that says "Liars inside, enter at your own risk"

To say I am 'pro-abortion' creates too narrow a definition of my views.

But to say you're "pro-abortion if the woman chooses" would be correct?

For me, it's not about the abortion, it's about the choice. My personal views on abortion don't matter. What matters to me is that the woman should be allowed to choose freely for herself. If she chooses abortion, I will support her in that choice, regardless of my own personal feelings.

Ah, but in the "pro-choice" movement, it IS about the abortion. I understand what you're trying to say, but to me that's just double-talking. If you are "pro-choice", then you are "pro-abortion if the woman chooses". I am pro-life and anti-abortion, and anti-choice.

I think this is one of the great disconnects between the 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' factions. The 'pro-life' position is quite cut-and-dried, whereas the 'pro-choice' position has a lot of variations. It's entirely possible to be anti-abortion, but pro-choice. I'm reasonably sure it is not possible to be pro-life, but also pro-abortion.

I'm not sure that the majority of 'pro-choice' people would agree with your assertion that it IS about the abortion - there are so many reasons and variations for joining this group. Perhaps among groups who lean to the extremes, 'choice' is entirely about abortion, and I'm perfectly willing to admit such groups probably exist, though I've never encountered one, much like there are extreme groups within the 'pro-life' faction who think it's justified to murder abortion providers to "protect life" - an example of double-talk if I ever saw it. The reason so much rhetoric focuses on abortion is because this is the element of choice that 'pro-life' groups and politicians would like to remove.

My experience of 'pro-choice', and certainly my own feelings on the subject, simply don't focus on abortion, pro or against. My focus is on the importance of protecting the right of a woman to choose her own path, without the interference of the state or any other group. As far as I am concerned, my preference and beliefs should have no bearing on this decision, and nor should the preferences and beliefs of anyone, except those most intimately involved. My impression of the 'pro-life' movement is that those involved feel that everyone should be held to their standards, preferences and beliefs, and that ideally, the state should codify these. In an intimate area of a person's life, I don't think that's reasonable or appropriate. I'm pro-choice for the same essential reason I'm pro-gay marriage - an individual's choice is none of my business, and no-one else's either.

Really curious why those who don't mind a woman having an abortion find it so horrible to be called pro-abortion? Why don't you like that term?

Can't speak for everyone, but if someone were to tell me that I, personally, am pro-abortion, I would not be offended. However, their context is usually off. Am I pro-abortion myself...as in...is that what I, PERSONALLY, would choose? At this point in my life, yes. Am I pro-abortion for everyone else? No. I simply don't care what anyone else does with their body. On the flip-side, am I pro-choice for myself? Of course. Am I pro-choice for everyone else? Of course, simply because I support individuals rights. Context is key, for me.