Graphic Abortion Ad to Air During Superbowl.
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I appreciate the discussion, and like how we did it in a respectful manner. :flowerforyou:
Me too!0 -
Ah, it's always credible to quote a comedian in a serious debate. The above is a load of crap."Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're f@cked."0 -
I think it always comes back to that in the end. And there, we will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree.
And we're right back to the opinion on whether or not the fetus is a life worthy of human rights. I believe it is a life, so the mother should not have the choice to kill her child. I think we've made full circle. I appreciate the discussion, and like how we did it in a respectful manner. :flowerforyou:My impression of the 'pro-life' movement is that those involved feel that everyone should be held to their standards, preferences and beliefs, and that ideally, the state should codify these. In an intimate area of a person's life, I don't think that's reasonable or appropriate. I'm pro-choice for the same essential reason I'm pro-gay marriage - an individual's choice is none of my business, and no-one else's either.
:flowerforyou:
I also appreciated the discussion - always interesting here. Off now to eat an alarmingly calorific supper. Wish me luck in making good choices!
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Thanks, Kimmy! Now go study!!!!Can't speak for everyone, but if someone were to tell me that I, personally, am pro-abortion, I would not be offended.0 -
Good luck! I ate a sandwich for lunch yesterday that cost me 1,100 calories! I shouldn't be eating at all today. Ha!Me three! Off now to eat an alarmingly calorific supper. Wish me luck in making good choices!0 -
In an intimate area of a person's life, I don't think that's reasonable or appropriate. I'm pro-choice for the same essential reason I'm pro-gay marriage - an individual's choice is none of my business, and no-one else's either.
I agree 100% - it will all come down to this, though: most pro-life folks claim that the choice of terminating a pregnancy at any point is murder and therefore should be outlawed (and punished, but no one has expressed much about what that should be).
And so the argument cycle goes round and round
ETA - okay, I'm SLOW :blushing:
macpatti pretty much beat me to it at the top of this page!
Happy lunch everyone!0 -
Good luck! I ate a sandwich for lunch yesterday that cost me 1,100 calories! I shouldn't be eating at all today. Ha!Me three! Off now to eat an alarmingly calorific supper. Wish me luck in making good choices!
Thank you! I bet it was a good sandwich, though!0 -
Ah, it's always credible to quote a comedian in a serious debate. The above is a load of crap."Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're f@cked."
I think its disingenuous to say that you support the women and children after the fact if you are voting for almost anyone in the current Republican party.0 -
Catching up here so pardon any serial posting. It was a busy morning and I was shirking my duties as a computer sloth. :laugh:Hmmmm....okay, since we're pretending here....let's suppose the Catholic church decided that animals have souls and should be treated the same way as humans. Then, yes, I would consider slaughtering an animal for food murder. If it were made illegal, then, yes, I would support punishment for the offenders.
OK, well there's another difference between us. Just because a law is passed that wouldn't change my perception of right and wrong. If we were back in Prohibition times you'd be the woman preaching about the evils of alcohol (I don't mean that in a religious way) and I'd be in my basement making small amounts of personal use only homemade wine saying it's none of the government's damn business if I want to have a glass of wine every once in a while.
ooo I like this! History tells us that just because something has been made illegal, it does not make it wrong. As someone else put it (I think Casper?), it just adds a punishment to it, if caught.0 -
Time to get your facts straight regarding adoption instead of believing the myth that many report. There are countless couples who would like to adopt children but cannot because there are not enough children available. In the year 2008, approximately 1.21 million children were killed through abortion, and approximately 500,000+ were waiting to adopt. The number of children released for adoption was a mere 136,000. So the truth is that we are not in a situation in which there are not enough people to take "unwanted" children!
(Statistics by: National Council for Adoption, Childwelfare.gov & Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute )
And, childbirth and it's effects on a woman vary per woman and pregnancy. For the child, however, it is a matter of life or death. No one said adoption is an easy choice. None of the choices are easy and all have consequences that will last a lifetime. However, I have yet to hear an adoptee say that they wish they weren't born. Same with children who were born from a crisis pregnancy. 53 millions souls were murdered in the womb in the US since 1973, how is that defensible?
How many of those 136,000 were adopted?
Your numbers are also skewed. 136,000 children were in foster care and eligible to be adopted. MOST adoptions are newborns who never enter the foster care system. There weren't 500,000 people fighting over 136,000 kids. The vast majority of those 500,000 couples were waiting for a healthy white newborn and wanted nothing to do with those 136,000 kids. You try to make it sound selfish to have an abortion and not give some random person the newborn they want but I see those couples as the selfish ones. There are 136,000 perfectly adoptable kids out there waiting for a family, growing older every year and losing hope that they will ever have a family of their own.0 -
I thought I told you to go study?!ooo I like this! History tells us that just because something has been made illegal, it does not make it wrong. As someone else put it (I think Casper?), it just adds a punishment to it, if caught.
If it's illegal, it's illigal, Kimmy. How are we using the words "right" and "wrong" here? Isn't it "wrong" to break the law? If the speed limit is 60 and I'm doing 70, I'm wrong and would have consequences. If the state changes that speedlimit on that road to 70, I can't then conclude that because laws change, they're never really "wrong". Correct?0 -
Carlin was far more than a mere comedian, and the above was his point of view.
Ah, it's always credible to quote a comedian in a serious debate. The above is a load of crap."Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're f@cked."
""No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing"",,, have you listened to any of the recent R debates? This is pretty much their platform, and GC called it like he saw it.0 -
Well that's a stupid quote.
"I've noticed everyone that is for abortion has already been born".~ Ronald ReganI have yet to hear an adoptee say that they wish they weren't born.
I've noticed that every gay person has a mother and a father.
I've noticed that every abusive parent chose to have a baby.0 -
Thank you.If the woman chooses that, I will be 100% pro abortion for her.
Really? You're going to take 1 part of her statement to support your argument and leave out the next sentence that stated if a woman chose to give birth to the child than she is 100% pro-life for her? I think her explanation of pro-abortion versus pro-choice is an excellent one. It's about the woman's choice of how to take care of her body as opposed to the procedure itself.0 -
Back to the original thread, about the commercial. Where do we stop? I understand the thought process behind showing graphic abortion pics and video to shock people into awareness. But seriously, should we air anti-STD commercials showing men getting the warts lasered off their penises? This "for the greater" good mentality could be applied to endless issues where we could shock the living hell out of the viewer. Thing is, last time I checked, people didn't tune into the SuperBowl to think about serious issues.
Because it's a political ad it cannot be censored even if it's something the station would normally refuse. It's a crock and a law passed by politicians to give them control over everything right down to political ads. Notice how they made the do not call list then exempted themselves? It's like that.0 -
The point I was getting at is that if you're pro-choice, at some point you are pro-abortion. That's what I was wanting people to say. Too many people refuse to admit that if they're pro-choice, they're not pro-abortion.Really? You're going to take 1 part of her statement to support your argument and leave out the next sentence that stated if a woman chose to give birth to the child than she is 100% pro-life for her? I think her explanation of pro-abortion versus pro-choice is an excellent one. It's about the woman's choice of how to take care of her body as opposed to the procedure itself.0 -
"I've noticed everyone that is for abortion has already been born".~ Ronald Regan
I don't understand how your statements are the same. The point is, people who were given up for adoption instead of aborted are happy to be alive. People who were born after a crisis pregnancy are grateful for life. It's not like we can ask an aborted fetus its point of view. So, the statement that "everyone who is for abortion has already been born" is a statement of truth.Well that's a stupid quote.
I've noticed that every gay person has a mother and a father.
I've noticed that every abusive parent chose to have a baby.0 -
"I've noticed everyone that is for abortion has already been born".~ Ronald Regan
I don't understand how your statements are the same. The point is, people who were given up for adoption instead of aborted are happy to be alive. People who were born after a crisis pregnancy are grateful for life. It's not like we can ask an aborted fetus its point of view. So, the statement that "everyone who is for abortion has already been born" is a statement of truth.Well that's a stupid quote.
I've noticed that every gay person has a mother and a father.
I've noticed that every abusive parent chose to have a baby.
I lived 21 years of my life without a Smartphone, but now that I have one, the thought of not being able to access the internet wherever I want is not really appealing to me. Before I knew it existed, I didn't miss it because it didn't exist to me. Then, once it was introduced, I found myself happy to have it.
Had my parents aborted me, I would have never known the difference. You can't really miss what you don't know exists, and if you're never born, you can't miss life.0 -
Pro-choice = pro-abortion?
Not true. I would love to stop abortion. I would love to make it never happen again. I am firmly anti-abortion.
However,,, I believe that making abortion illegal would stop 1/4th of all abortions. It would also spawn a thriving black market in backalley butchery that would kill thousands of poor women a year. It may be good for the airline and travel industry, as upper-middle class and rich girls and their moms take lots of short "shopping trips" to modern countries abroad.
SO - that makes me grudgingly pro-choice. I wish abortion to be rare, but I want it to be safe, and therefore it must be legal.0 -
The point I was getting at is that if you're pro-choice, at some point you are pro-abortion. That's what I was wanting people to say. Too many people refuse to admit that if they're pro-choice, they're not pro-abortion.Really? You're going to take 1 part of her statement to support your argument and leave out the next sentence that stated if a woman chose to give birth to the child than she is 100% pro-life for her? I think her explanation of pro-abortion versus pro-choice is an excellent one. It's about the woman's choice of how to take care of her body as opposed to the procedure itself.
What's the point in making people say it? What does that really prove? It's all nit-picky anyway. To me, it's like the difference between atheist and agnostic. Some people get quite annoyed with it - I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things.0 -
I thought I told you to go study?!ooo I like this! History tells us that just because something has been made illegal, it does not make it wrong. As someone else put it (I think Casper?), it just adds a punishment to it, if caught.
If it's illegal, it's illigal, Kimmy. How are we using the words "right" and "wrong" here? Isn't it "wrong" to break the law? If the speed limit is 60 and I'm doing 70, I'm wrong and would have consequences. If the state changes that speedlimit on that road to 70, I can't then conclude that because laws change, they're never really "wrong". Correct?
I'm awaiting a conference call to begin.
I could start an entire debate off of "is something wrong if it's illegal?" and maybe I will. I feel I'd be opening another can of worms if I reply how I truly want to reply. :ohwell: 0 -
False. Pro choice means exactly that. We support any choice you want to make be it abortion, adoption, or raising it yourself. It may not be the choice we would make but we aren't going to try to force our choice on you. Pro choice people are pro abortion (if that's the mother's choice), pro life (if that's the mother's choice) and pro adoption (if that's the mother's choice).
"The term “pro-choice” should really embody all of the “pro” stances on every issue; it shouldn’t just define one issue. When someone refers to themselves as pro-choice, what choice are they referring to? Abortion. So what they are saying is that they believe it is fine for someone to obtain an abortion, which makes them pro-abortion. If you believe people have the right to form and join unions even if you would never join one, you are pro-union. Would you be angry that someone referred to you as pro-union? Would you say I just believe in the choice to join a union, but I am not pro-union? Of course not.I am pro-choice. That is not the same thing as pro-abortion.
The use of the word choice shows that it is all about the stigma of being called pro-abortion; is there a stigma if there is nothing wrong with abortion? Why would people be so opposed to being referred to as pro-abortion if abortion is perfectly acceptable"?
I have never, ever heard anyone saying "Yay!! I get to go have an abortion today!" Or "Gee, I think I'll go get knocked up so I can have an abortion. That sounds like fun." I've never seen anyone standing outside a crisis pregnancy center praying that the girls going in would choose to abort. I've never heard of pro choicers throwing rocks at pregnant teens and telling them they should abort. I've never heard of pro choicers bombing crisis pregnancy centers.0 -
No. It's pro choice. I said if I found out I was pregnant right now I'd be at a clinic tonight. It's my choice. But if I was pro abortion I wouldn't have my sons. Having them was another choice I made. No one is in favor of abortion. I'm pro-not getting pregnant in the first place. But if that doesn't work out then it's up to each individual to decide what alternative choice they want to make.
Thank you. There were several people who said if right now they found out they were pregnant, they'd go abort. That, my friends, is pro-abortion.I think I saw 3 different people post yesterday that they were. In fact. I saw once poster who was ok with abortion as birth control.0 -
You are pro-abortion when that's the woman's choice. Period.No. It's pro choice. I said if I found out I was pregnant right now I'd be at a clinic tonight. It's my choice. But if I was pro abortion I wouldn't have my sons. Having them was another choice I made. No one is in favor of abortion. I'm pro-not getting pregnant in the first place. But if that doesn't work out then it's up to each individual to decide what alternative choice they want to make.0 -
You can't really use this argument. A 2 year old won't know that adulthood exists, but that doesn't mean it's okay to kill it just because they won't miss it anyway.You can't really miss what you don't know exists, and if you're never born, you can't miss life.0 -
The point in making people say it? Well, the pro-choice people are the ones who make the statement that they're not necessarily pro-abortion. I like pointing out that it's the same thing in certain situations.What's the point in making people say it? What does that really prove? It's all nit-picky anyway. To me, it's like the difference between atheist and agnostic. Some people get quite annoyed with it - I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things.
Since you brought up atheism, I have another example along the same lines. Some atheists get pissed if anyone tells them they're going to hell if they don't believe in God (I've never said that). But I respect the atheist who can say, "Hey, guys, guess what? IF there is a hell, we're going there". Stand on your convictions.0 -
Thank you.If the woman chooses that, I will be 100% pro abortion for her.
Really? You're going to take 1 part of her statement to support your argument and leave out the next sentence that stated if a woman chose to give birth to the child than she is 100% pro-life for her? I think her explanation of pro-abortion versus pro-choice is an excellent one. It's about the woman's choice of how to take care of her body as opposed to the procedure itself.
Thank you.0 -
The point in making people say it? Well, the pro-choice people are the ones who make the statement that they're not necessarily pro-abortion. I like pointing out that it's the same thing in certain situations.What's the point in making people say it? What does that really prove? It's all nit-picky anyway. To me, it's like the difference between atheist and agnostic. Some people get quite annoyed with it - I don't think it matters in the grand scheme of things.
Since you brought up atheism, I have another example along the same lines. Some atheists get pissed if anyone tells them they're going to hell if they don't believe in God (I've never said that). But I respect the atheist who can say, "Hey, guys, guess what? IF there is a hell, we're going there". Stand on your convictions.
I think it's more the sentiment that someone is telling them "I fully believe you're going to this really awful place!" And I have in fact had a friend tell me that while he thinks I'm a great person, it saddens him to know that I'll be going to Hell. aka: that really awful place, in his mind. The connotations with that word (bad, awful, torturous, suffering, etc.) I think, are what sparks the "pissed off" feelings. I don't personally see it that way, but I would guess that's how a lot of atheists/agnostics may feel? 0 -
You can't really use this argument. A 2 year old won't know that adulthood exists, but that doesn't mean it's okay to kill it just because they won't miss it anyway.You can't really miss what you don't know exists, and if you're never born, you can't miss life.
A 2 year olds rights are not at question. They are different. One is born the other is not.0 -
THANK YOU! I don't question the rights of the unborn. That's my point. Again, full circle.A 2 year olds rights are not at question. They are different. One is born the other is not.0
This discussion has been closed.