conversations with dietician, therapist...
bethad5
Posts: 176 Member
Hi all-
I'm mid-week 3 of the reset, haven't weighed myself but know I've gained, and my clothes are tight and uncomfortable. I had a discussion with a dietician yesterday that has left me unsettled. She said that I should be eating 1800 + half of my exercise calories back to lose weight, putting me at around 2200 on workout days. I'm currently eating full TDEE, which is 2655, which is a good 450 over. It just started to raise a lot of questions that I then discussed with my therapist. I explained to her the whole 'movement' of EM2WL and how it's a community of people who are throwing low-cal diets out the window... and she was skeptical. And I explained it the best I could, but she was still a little leery of the whole concept. She asked a lot of questions that I couldn't answer- mostly, 'where's the proof this works' 'is this just a justification for eating more', etc. I told her about posters who gained 20+ pounds resetting and she asked how anyone was sure it wasn't from eating too much for so long- and it got me thinking. If I do a full reset and eat 2655 for 8 weeks, but should only be eating 2200 on workout days (according to the dietician), and 1800 on non-workout days, then my total daily calories for a week would be approximately 14,600. Eating 2655 everyday, I'm eating approximately 18,585.. equaling about 3,985 over what I should be. If a pound is 3500 extra calories, then I'm easily gaining a pound a week. My therapist then asked if this was working for anybody, and I told her that a lot of people went to 'cut' and lost weight - but she asked if they had lost just the weight they'd gained from eating more, or even more so. And it was another question I couldn't answer! But the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that people who cut and lose weight are just losing the extra weight they've put on due to eating more.
I'm already pretty skeptical about eating my full TDEE due to how bloated and gross I feel. I feel like my workouts are pointless because regardless of if I work out or not, I'm fat and my clothes don't fit. I told myself I wouldn't weigh in until July, so Sunday's the day...and I'm petrified. Absolutely petrified. My therapist then said that she thought I seemed more anxious - and I said I am feeling more anxiety - and she asked if it was due to this, and I was honest and told her yes. So then she asked if it was worth it...
And here it is to you all: is it? Is it really worth it? Looking at the numbers I posted above, the weight gain has an obvious reason behind it... a surplus of close to 4000 calories a week is easily a pound...
I don't know. What do you all think?
I'm mid-week 3 of the reset, haven't weighed myself but know I've gained, and my clothes are tight and uncomfortable. I had a discussion with a dietician yesterday that has left me unsettled. She said that I should be eating 1800 + half of my exercise calories back to lose weight, putting me at around 2200 on workout days. I'm currently eating full TDEE, which is 2655, which is a good 450 over. It just started to raise a lot of questions that I then discussed with my therapist. I explained to her the whole 'movement' of EM2WL and how it's a community of people who are throwing low-cal diets out the window... and she was skeptical. And I explained it the best I could, but she was still a little leery of the whole concept. She asked a lot of questions that I couldn't answer- mostly, 'where's the proof this works' 'is this just a justification for eating more', etc. I told her about posters who gained 20+ pounds resetting and she asked how anyone was sure it wasn't from eating too much for so long- and it got me thinking. If I do a full reset and eat 2655 for 8 weeks, but should only be eating 2200 on workout days (according to the dietician), and 1800 on non-workout days, then my total daily calories for a week would be approximately 14,600. Eating 2655 everyday, I'm eating approximately 18,585.. equaling about 3,985 over what I should be. If a pound is 3500 extra calories, then I'm easily gaining a pound a week. My therapist then asked if this was working for anybody, and I told her that a lot of people went to 'cut' and lost weight - but she asked if they had lost just the weight they'd gained from eating more, or even more so. And it was another question I couldn't answer! But the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that people who cut and lose weight are just losing the extra weight they've put on due to eating more.
I'm already pretty skeptical about eating my full TDEE due to how bloated and gross I feel. I feel like my workouts are pointless because regardless of if I work out or not, I'm fat and my clothes don't fit. I told myself I wouldn't weigh in until July, so Sunday's the day...and I'm petrified. Absolutely petrified. My therapist then said that she thought I seemed more anxious - and I said I am feeling more anxiety - and she asked if it was due to this, and I was honest and told her yes. So then she asked if it was worth it...
And here it is to you all: is it? Is it really worth it? Looking at the numbers I posted above, the weight gain has an obvious reason behind it... a surplus of close to 4000 calories a week is easily a pound...
I don't know. What do you all think?
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Replies
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From what I understand you are not eating "extra" calories - TDEE is your maintenance. That is, when you eat at TDEE you are netting 0, your body is using all of the calories you consume, and not more. People seem to gain weight because their bodies were "starving" for more food and hold on to those extra calories while your metabolism resets. The idea is that once your metabolism is back to where it is happy, and you are taking in one calorie for every calorie that you burn you will then lose weight more effectively. So those people who are losing the initial weight they gained are able to do so at a higher caloric intake than a VLCD. It isn't new science or a new idea, I can understand why someone may be skeptical of the reset...but in the end you are a still consuming at a caloric deficit which = weight loss.0
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How do you explain those of us who didn't gain any weight?
I lost 18 lbs doing 1200 calories. My weight loss plateaued for a month and then I found this group. I upped my calories to 1800+ and promptly lot 6 lbs (inlcuding several inches).
The constipation I have suffered almost my entire life (since I have dieted almost my entire life) is gone. This in itself has improved the quality of my life immensely. I am happier, stronger, and fitter than I have been in a long time. Oh and I'm not starving.0 -
Also, there is a ton of evidence and success stories out there to support this. Have you seen the study called the minnesota experiment? I think that's what it's called.
There are so many first hand success stories here (on this group and elsewhere on MFP) that support this.
There is a gigantic thread on the main forum in success stories of people who lost all their weight eating above their BMR.
You might lose slower with the calorie you are eating but the ones your dietitian recommended are really not all that different. 1800+half of your exercise calories won't be that much different.0 -
right, TDEE isn't a "surplus"
...........IF it's calculated correctly.
It's quite possible that your numbers are too high for you. No online calculator is going to be completely accurate- you're still allowed to tweak your numbers a little bit if it's not working for you.
I'm satisfied with this amount of calories the Scooby Calc has given me (I do not feel starved, and likewise do not feel bloated or over-full). BUT I also haven't lost anything yet (it's been a couple weeks). So if I am not seeing results after probably a month, I might change things up a bit.
Don't feel locked into some number a machine has given you. It's a starting point, but it doesn't mean it's set in stone!
Also- in regard to the weight loss and whether the numbers are including that which they've gained .......... it would depend on the person. I feel like if it were me, I would only count what I'd lost from my starting weight, not what I'd bounced up to. So for example, if I started at 160 and got down to 140, I wouldn't say I lost 25lbs even if at one point along the way I found myself at 165. I assume most people would do the same.0 -
I think the idea here is that everyone is different and everyone's body reacts differently. Maybe you don't feel great on a full reset so you should adjust your caloric intake to the point that you feel good! (I am just not a believer in stuffing yourself when you are not hungry). Maybe you should play around with your caloric intake to find your sweet spot (as none of the calculators are 100% accurate anyway)? I have found mine around 1800-2000, and I am losing weight. Personally, the bigger picture for me of EM2WL is that you don't have to STARVE yourself to lose weight, and there is something inherently unhealthy about trying to fuel your body on 1200-1300/day. You can eat enough food to feel good, workout, and be healthy. Anxiety shouldn't be part of it...but it does work for a lot of people0
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Well, from what I can see, she is simply telling you to eat at a15% cut from your full tdee (I calculated it to be 2256) which is what you willl do at the end of your reset anyways. The point of eating at full tdee is to get your metabolism working at full capacity. And your tdee should include your exercise for the WEEK. Not day by day, so you aren't eating in excess unless you don't do the planned exercise or you calculated your tdee wrong. It is normal to gain the weight until your body resets it's metabolism to where it should be, then it stabilizes and you go to cut. At the beginning of a reset your 'maintenance' is too low...so of course the weight goes up until your body finds the new maintenance.
There are success stories out there, but this forum itself is new and many of us are starting together. Also, the success stories have moved on for the most part because they don't need the support anymore, and so we don't see them posting here.0 -
Also, the numbers you got from your dietitian are for weight loss, not for maintaining.
Your 15% cut is around 2200 which would have exercise factored in. So it is a little bit higher overall than what your dietitian recommended but you will still lose. Just more slowly, which is what this group recommends so as to lose more fat than muscle.0 -
I have only been doing the EM2WL thing for about a month. Went from 1400 calories to 2200 calories per day and I immediately lost 5 pounds. I haven't lost more but also haven't gained more. I'll start eating my cut value next week (-10%) so I can't really testify that this actually "works" but seeing as I have not gained a single pound by eating 800 calories more per day it totally makes sense. The smallest I've been in my adult life is 165 pounds. I really wanted to be down to 145 which is on the high side of the "ideal" weight for my height. So for years, I ran 3 miles 6 days per week, light weights twice per week and yoga a couple days, plus walked a 90 pound dog a couple days. All while eating 1200-1400 calories per day and watched the scale stay in exactly the same spot. I finally decided enough was enough. I couldn't continue to be soooo tired and disciplined yet see no results. After becoming less disciplined my weight crept up and I decided to try watching my calories again. Since joining MFP I found EM2WL and it was like an Ah Ha moment. No wonder I couldn't lose anything. I wasn't giving my body what it required so it was holding on to everything! Sorry for the rant, I really wish I could get you to feel what I felt when I had that Ah Ha moment. Everything just clicked into place in my brain and I'm so much happier and on my way to being healthier, I just know it!
And I'll be here posting my results when it happens! 0 -
I have only been doing the EM2WL thing for about a month. Went from 1400 calories to 2200 calories per day and I immediately lost 5 pounds. I haven't lost more but also haven't gained more. I'll start eating my cut value next week (-10%) so I can't really testify that this actually "works" but seeing as I have not gained a single pound by eating 800 calories more per day it totally makes sense. The smallest I've been in my adult life is 165 pounds. I really wanted to be down to 145 which is on the high side of the "ideal" weight for my height. So for years, I ran 3 miles 6 days per week, light weights twice per week and yoga a couple days, plus walked a 90 pound dog a couple days. All while eating 1200-1400 calories per day and watched the scale stay in exactly the same spot. I finally decided enough was enough. I couldn't continue to be soooo tired and disciplined yet see no results. After becoming less disciplined my weight crept up and I decided to try watching my calories again. Since joining MFP I found EM2WL and it was like an Ah Ha moment. No wonder I couldn't lose anything. I wasn't giving my body what it required so it was holding on to everything! Sorry for the rant, I really wish I could get you to feel what I felt when I had that Ah Ha moment. Everything just clicked into place in my brain and I'm so much happier and on my way to being healthier, I just know it! And I'll be here posting my results when it happens!
Amazing!!!0 -
As others pointed out, the numbers the dietitian gave you are spot on to what the calculators we all use would recommend. At the moment, you are eating to maintain, which means the scale shouldn't move much. I don't recall if you said or not, but if you're coming off of a VLCD, it completely makes sense that you would feel bloated and gross. But there are so many other factors that may cause that as well: too much sodium causing water retention, a lot of carbs, a mild allergy to a certain food, etc. The bodies are complex and sometimes it's hard to pinpoint. But that the number of calories the calculators we use would recommend match those of the dietitian will hopefully provide a little more comfort!
The biggest way to stop fearing the unknown is to become familiar with it! Read as much as you can, and not just here! In the beginning, I was reading articles about TDEE and BMR so I could truly grasp what the numbers meant and what the difference was, I listen to the fat2fitradio.com podcasts, which go by the same philosophy. I've read about reasons we retain water so I know why the scale might argue with me. Research those areas that make you the most leery! It certainly can't hurt! You'll either find you agree or disagree, but you'll be more comfortable with whichever route you choose!0 -
Don't forget another VERY important part of EM2WL and the Reset in particular: to HEAL our bodies from the damage done to them from Low Calorie Diets.
If your principle goal is to LOSE WEIGHT, then EM2WL isn't for you.
If you are looking for something more than seeing a certain number on a scale or a size in your jeans, then PLEASE stay here and finish the process. THEN decide if it's a fad or not. (would you quit after just 3 weeks on WW, etc?)
Also, why not invite your therapist to our board to read through some of the material? I'm sure he or she would HAVE to agree that our emotional well-being is being SUPPORTED rather than broken down by unrealistic eating plans.
Good Luck with whatever you decide.......0 -
We have to remember that the reset is not about weight loss, or even gain, really. Its about healing a metabolism that we've hurt through VLCD. Also, we need to remember that this goes against what the mainstream media (and even "experts") believe.
If your TDEE is calculated properly, there shouldnt be much gain over the 8 week recommended reset time. However, everyone's different. Usually the big gains that some people are experiencing can be attributed to struggling with consistency and/or a history of VLCD for an extended period of time.
I've found that since this approach does go against everything that is preached to us DAILY, I have to be very careful about who I solicit advice from. I tend to really second guess myself, and I don't need any help. I'm not sure what you are seeing a nutritionist/therapist for, but you have to be convinced that whatever plan you follow is right for you...and then stick with it. It has taken me a very long time to warm up to the idea that this IS the right path, but I get plenty of raised eyebrows too. However, I feel better (for the most part) than I have for a very long time and those weight/diet/scale demons are losing their hold on me. That is worth so much more to me than a number I see on the scale.
Hang in there, and take advantage of the support on here!0 -
I faced similar skepticism with my therapist last week. Like you, I didn't have good answers to her questions. While I understand the logic behind EM2WL, the explanation, "well it worked for so-and-so" doesn't really have much power. I am hoping to find some research-based evidence to further support it and delve deeper into the science of it.0
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ok, so go to the new EM2WL site-resource page; books and articles for you and your therapist or nutritionist to read:
http://eatmore2weighless.com/faqs/resources/
Just because the have degrees doesn't mean they're well informed. It's better to be informed on what you are doing, so you don't get put in that position again.:flowerforyou:0 -
Beth I get it!
I dont have any answers but I just wanted to let you know your post sounded EXACTLY like me, including the RND and therapist.
My RND wanted me to eat more as well and I gained. She wanted me to hold on until I reached a set point and promised it would happen.
I couldnt get there mentally- I just have to learn to be okay in the moment and 'try' every single day to eat right for what feels right.
So hard0 -
As a new social worker here I just want to say that we can be wrong
If your therapist isn't getting it, I would send her/him some links that have been helpful for you. If s/he doesn't get it after that, depending on how helpful this person is in other aspects of your life, I might encourage you to possibly seek a different one. If this person can't support you, they're not doing their job. There are a lot of quacky folks out there, sometimes it can take some time to find the right person.
That said maybe this person has been super helpful in other circumstances and truly is just unenlightened (and aren't we all!) Just remember it's your journey and no one elses!0 -
One thing that happened for me when I finally took the plunge is that I stopped fretting about how, when, why, where and what if. I made a decision to eat more because 1) The reasoning made sense; 2) I was always hungry and never quite satisfied, which often led to overeating crap; 3) I'm a happier person now that I don't feel the internal guilt of always "messing up" or going over my daily goal. I believe that stress can also play a part in weight gain. I make sure to eat above my BMR of 1550, regardless of whether or not I exercise that day (although I routinely exercise 40-50 minutes daily, including cardio and strength). I'm content to eat within a range of 1600-1800, which may include more or less exercise calories. But the bottom line is that I'm doing something that I can live with and not stress over. So far, it's working for me. The byproduct last week was 2.8 lbs gone! Get in where *you* fit in and don't worry, be happy!
:bigsmile:0 -
Don't forget that anxiety about increasing calories is a very VERY common side effect. That should be one of the key features in "What to expect in the beginning". You chug along eating more healthy food, and then WHAMMO, you realize that it seems contrary to everything we have ever been taught about losing weight.
Meanwhile, look at our society and the way it deals with weight--There must be more diet centers and gyms in the U.S. per capita than anywhere else in the world. It's almost as though our socitey (in America, anyway) thrives on the failures of diets and fads. Let's face it, dieting is an industry. A huge one, and one that is very hard to come up against when it comes to the "logic" of losing.
I have listened to several podcasts on Fat2Fitradio.com, and this one I have listened to about 5 times. It is so incredibly informative, and it is information given by two guys with similar goals-to lose weight, and to be fit. They are selling NOTHING.
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/2009/12/fat-2-fit-83-eat-more-weight-less/
http://www.fat2fitradio.com/2012/02/fat-2-fit-139-breaking-those-nasty-weight-loss-plateaus/
Lastly, as someone who knows quite a lot about therapy as a reciepient thereof, they are not there to question your actions--they are there to work out why you may be quesitoning your own. Giving their opinion is a giant no-no. Think about how they are phrasing things, and then they can educate themselves. It is not your job to educate them.
GOOD LUCK!0 -
i didn't do a reset but started eating my cut since March.. I only gained about 2-3 lbs at the start and then it promptly started coming off slow and steady. I've lost 14 lbs and 4-5 inches overall. I've been doing this since March.
The beginning is the most challenging. its a total psychological battle to go against everything we were ever taught about dieting and weight loss. the fist 6-8 weeks your body is going to be confused and its not going to do what we expect it to do.. but if you stick it out and eventually move into your cut value.. it will fall right in line with the plan...
Slow and steady weight loss.
My advice... read ALL the stickies over and over again.
"what to expect" " why you should eat above bmr" etc..
Training your brain to realize its ok to eat is as important as feeding your body.0 -
Training your brain to realize its ok to eat is as important as feeding your body.
quite true!0 -
I didn't do a reset either so I don't have that experience. However, I did almost double my calorie intake including....gasp...carbs over the last 2.5 weeks & I haven't gained a pound. It is honestly completely mystifying to me. I was prepared to gain & I may still but really I just wanna be healthy. I have way more energy & stamina eating at this level. I have seen gains in speed, stamina, & strength. Also, I hate being hungry! BTW Last year I lost 30 lbs then after November, nada just the same 3 lbs up & down even though I was working out harder than ever. If I maintain here I'm fine with that if I lose the last 10lbs great I honestly don't care. I need a food lifestyle that works & enables me to do what I want to do. What do you want to do?
Here's my list!
play hard with my boys
run 5k
100 burpees without stopping
a full extension pullup
black sash in kung fu0 -
i didn't do a reset but started eating my cut since March.. I only gained about 2-3 lbs at the start and then it promptly started coming off slow and steady. I've lost 14 lbs and 4-5 inches overall. I've been doing this since March.
The beginning is the most challenging. its a total psychological battle to go against everything we were ever taught about dieting and weight loss. the fist 6-8 weeks your body is going to be confused and its not going to do what we expect it to do.. but if you stick it out and eventually move into your cut value.. it will fall right in line with the plan...
Slow and steady weight loss.
My advice... read ALL the stickies over and over again.
"what to expect" " why you should eat above bmr" etc..
Training your brain to realize its ok to eat is as important as feeding your body.
Definitely this.. the mind games can be a huge killer. It goes against everything we have ever been told about weight loss. Eat Less, move more.. thats the general mentality.. BUt once you know the science behind how the body works, how much food it needs just to survive, then it makes more sense..
For instance, if you look at a nutrition label, it says "information based from an average 2000 calorie diet.." That means the AVERAGE person should be eating about 2000 calories to maintain.. so why are we so sure, we need to eat 1200.. 1300.. 1400 cals??0 -
It is difficult to explain but I know this, I feel good. I have lost 5lbs. I am eating healthy food. I don't hate my food. I don't snack uncontrolled in the evening. I sleep well. I have energy. I am now able to do my strength training program and not feel exhausted.
Why, because I am finally feeding myself. It is really important.0 -
As a new social worker here I just want to say that we can be wrong
I graduate with my MSW in December But I'm right there with you- social workers can definitely be wrong!!
To everybody: thank you for all of your responses. I've read and re-read all the stickies and I know there's logic behind this- I'm just hitting the 3 week utter-exhaustion phase and beginning to doubt that I'm doing the right thing. I *think* my activity level is correct- I work out 5-6 days a week for an hour at a time, except if I go 6 days I split two of the days into shorter times, so I'm at the 5-6 hour of activity level, putting my TDEE at 2655. I lost 60 pounds by eating pretty low calorie (definitely netting under BMR) and maintained it for about a year. I started slowly gaining weight as I started to eat more. So I know the reset is the right thing, I'm just really impatient and always need reassurance 0 -
When I was at the 3 week mark I needed it too, just keep reading those notes and watching the videos. They got me through to now, I am in week 8! You can do this. Keep posting when you need to.0
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Just seconding what has been said here already...Don't give up! I've been EM2LW for about 4 weeks now. I've jumped my calories from 1500 a day to close to 3800, and while I haven't lost any weight I haven't gained a lb either. However I have gotten smaller in the right areas, and bigger in the areas I wanted to get bigger. Workouts are stronger, and I feel great. Don't fret! This works!0
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Just seconding what has been said here already...Don't give up! I've been EM2LW for about 4 weeks now. I've jumped my calories from 1500 a day to close to 3800, and while I haven't lost any weight I haven't gained a lb either. However I have gotten smaller in the right areas, and bigger in the areas I wanted to get bigger. Workouts are stronger, and I feel great. Don't fret! This works!
Nice job pitt!0 -
Just seconding what has been said here already...Don't give up! I've been EM2LW for about 4 weeks now. I've jumped my calories from 1500 a day to close to 3800, and while I haven't lost any weight I haven't gained a lb either. However I have gotten smaller in the right areas, and bigger in the areas I wanted to get bigger. Workouts are stronger, and I feel great. Don't fret! This works!
That is just freaking awesome!0 -
Just seconding what has been said here already...Don't give up! I've been EM2LW for about 4 weeks now. I've jumped my calories from 1500 a day to close to 3800, and while I haven't lost any weight I haven't gained a lb either. However I have gotten smaller in the right areas, and bigger in the areas I wanted to get bigger. Workouts are stronger, and I feel great. Don't fret! This works!
WOW!! How's that for some inspiration!!!0 -
I am just beginning here and have no personal success yet to share but for the people interested in the science of, it I can point you towards a book I just finished a book called The Smarter Science of Slim by Jonathan Bailor. The book is written by a man who took the past ten years of studies and explains them. The important part is that he goes beyond the studies that have been picked up by mainstream media and repeated over and over. He reports that it is not about how much you eat necessarily but about the quality of your food. (Warning: he thinks we do not need grains and that may irk some people.) He feels the same way about exercise that it is quality over quantity. I definitely had my "ah-ha" moment because I was feeling frustrated that I had just finished training for a half-marathon and netting1400-1500 calories and didn't lose a single pound!
Now I leave for vacation this week and will start following EM2WL and add more lifting when I get back.0
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