Just to address one point you made, Alpha2Omega:

Just because it's easy to find someone for the position you're trying to fill doesn't give you the right to pay them less than a living wage that will allow them to have healthcare, a decent place to live, food for themselves and their kids, enough to save a little for the future, and a few comforts.

There is a minimum wage under which we should not allow corporations in society to go, and it is not the minimum wage we currently have. There are people who bust their butts full time and still need foodstamps because their pay is so low. Who pays for those foodstamps? The taxpayers. Why should corporations be allowed to use people's labor and not pay them enough to sustain themselves and their families?

Maria,
That is a great point and question, however,( and you may not agree) the reason the "market" should dictate wages and not government is because every single person in the country has the ability to further their skillset through training or further education. Yes a person cleaning rooms will not be able to support a family on that income, however, if that same person went to school to become, lets say, a dental hygenist that person would have an average salary of over $60K/ year. This training can be accomplished in less than two years. Low income individuals would qualify for grants and or loans so their is no reason it can not be done. This country provides endless possibilities for those who want to better their lives. Unfortunately, it requires work to be put in by that individual, something that has been continually undermined by the left. The answer is not government. The answer is personal responsibility. Just so you don't think that I am just repeating what I've read, my mother had a high school education when I was born. She had no help and was raising me by herself. She struggled and continued her education and eventually became a registered nurse after years of part time schooling. It was very difficult for her, however, all her hard work has paid off. Our experiences definitely shape our perspectives.

You think healthcare is a right. and I don't. I'll agree to disagree.

I never said it's a right - there are no 'rights' at all. There is only what your government decides to let you do, and what it does. There is no such thing as a human 'right.' At all. Period.

this Constitution for the United States of America."
1. insure domestic Tranquility
2. promote the general Welfare

1. I missed where it said Healthcare. Can you point me to that part?
2. Was Wealth Redistribution what they meant by Welfare?

This is a lame counter argument, even by the standards you've previously set for yourself. "General Welfare."

LOL Please don't get me started on unions. The need for unions has come and gone. They were first created to enhance working conditions and safety. It quickly evolved to extortion. They have been responsible for the collapse of too many companies.

Than why do companies offer benefits not required by government such as Healthcare, 401k, tuition reimbursement, etc, etc., if they are merely in business to make a profit?

Regrettably, you seem to need very little starting...

The need for unions is gone until the unions are gone. Then the need will be back, bigger than before. The union *system* needs to be reformed (no easy task, I admit), but the idea of unions is still a good one.

Regarding companies that offer benefits - yes, some companies do that, and it's great that they try to attract top talent that way. But this discussion - and the healthcare law - aren't about the people those companies are competing for. It's about the people who fall through the cracks, the ones that don't have all the opportunities.

4. I am a raging capitalist. I am a consultant who has worked across almost every industry sector, all over the world. I'm paid pretty well to do it, and I work the system to my own benefit. But that doesn't mean it's a good system.


Just curious, if capitalism isn't a good system, what is?

A capitalistic system that is channeled and moderated by a government that seeks to keep its people safe - much like the one we currently have in place.

Just to address one point you made, Alpha2Omega:

Just because it's easy to find someone for the position you're trying to fill doesn't give you the right to pay them less than a living wage that will allow them to have healthcare, a decent place to live, food for themselves and their kids, enough to save a little for the future, and a few comforts.

There is a minimum wage under which we should not allow corporations in society to go, and it is not the minimum wage we currently have. There are people who bust their butts full time and still need foodstamps because their pay is so low. Who pays for those foodstamps? The taxpayers. Why should corporations be allowed to use people's labor and not pay them enough to sustain themselves and their families?

Maria,
That is a great point and question, however,( and you may not agree) the reason the "market" should dictate wages and not government is because every single person in the country has the ability to further their skillset through training or further education. Yes a person cleaning rooms will not be able to support a family on that income, however, if that same person went to school to become, lets say, a dental hygenist that person would have an average salary of over $60K/ year. This training can be accomplished in less than two years. Low income individuals would qualify for grants and or loans so their is no reason it can not be done. This country provides endless possibilities for those who want to better their lives. Unfortunately, it requires work to be put in by that individual, something that has been continually undermined by the left. The answer is not government. The answer is personal responsibility. Just so you don't think that I am just repeating what I've read, my mother had a high school education when I was born. She had no help and was raising me by herself. She struggled and continued her education and eventually became a registered nurse after years of part time schooling. It was very difficult for her, however, all her hard work has paid off. Our experiences definitely shape our perspectives.

You really do live in a fantasy land... you think that every person out there cleaning rooms for minimum wage is able to go to school for 2 years and come out with a $60k income? Seriously? And how are they supposed to afford a 2 year training program when they can't even keep a roof over their head?

There are people out there working five times harder than you or I ever will, employed at 2 or more jobs, who only get 4 hours of sleep each night because they work 20 hours a day and still manage to keep their kids in school and off drugs. I don't think there's anything you have to teach them about personal responsibility.

Just to address one point you made, Alpha2Omega:

Just because it's easy to find someone for the position you're trying to fill doesn't give you the right to pay them less than a living wage that will allow them to have healthcare, a decent place to live, food for themselves and their kids, enough to save a little for the future, and a few comforts.

There is a minimum wage under which we should not allow corporations in society to go, and it is not the minimum wage we currently have. There are people who bust their butts full time and still need foodstamps because their pay is so low. Who pays for those foodstamps? The taxpayers. Why should corporations be allowed to use people's labor and not pay them enough to sustain themselves and their families?

Maria,
That is a great point and question, however,( and you may not agree) the reason the "market" should dictate wages and not government is because every single person in the country has the ability to further their skillset through training or further education. Yes a person cleaning rooms will not be able to support a family on that income, however, if that same person went to school to become, lets say, a dental hygenist that person would have an average salary of over $60K/ year. This training can be accomplished in less than two years. Low income individuals would qualify for grants and or loans so their is no reason it can not be done. This country provides endless possibilities for those who want to better their lives. Unfortunately, it requires work to be put in by that individual, something that has been continually undermined by the left. The answer is not government. The answer is personal responsibility. Just so you don't think that I am just repeating what I've read, my mother had a high school education when I was born. She had no help and was raising me by herself. She struggled and continued her education and eventually became a registered nurse after years of part time schooling. It was very difficult for her, however, all her hard work has paid off. Our experiences definitely shape our perspectives.

And since we're trading sob stories: I was brought up in a housing project, single mom, youngest of 4. My mother managed to get a Master's degree, which she needed to get a job, while we were on public assistance (welfare). She then managed to buy a house and get us out of the projects. Currently, of the 4 kids, 3 of us have Master's degrees (the fourth opted to make a killing in finance). After my Master's, I was accepted into a fully paid PhD program at a first tier school. I left to go make a killing in consulting.

Yes, our experiences shape our perspectives. And if my family hadn't had welfare - also not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution - to fall back on, who knows how differently things would have worked out. The government was there to support us when we needed it, and I will always be grateful. And I would not presume to take it away from others. I would also like those people to have healthcare, even if they can't afford to pay for it themselves. I'm just kooky that way.

Add to its being stupidly expensive, the health insurance industry has a habit of shirking its half of the contract, and refuses to accept the risk that its whole purpose is to underwrite. So yes, it needs to be regulated. (Well, I think earlier I said it needs to be abolished, which would be better. But I'll take what I can get.)

Could it be the skillset required to say clean a room is quite common therefore the companies hiring the housekeeping do not need to "compete" too aggressively for potential employees by offering say bonus and stock options because there are millions of people capable of doing this job? This is Microeconomics 101. If you don't understand this, I cant help that.

No, this really isn't microeconomics. You say things like you know what they mean, but you don't.

Microeconomics - The branch of economics that analyzes the market behavior of individual consumers, firms, or industries. In particular microeconomics focuses on patterns of supply and demand and the determination of price and output in individual markets. In my example it was the factors in determining price of labor. Simply, supply and demand.

And if only everyone was as smart and hardworking as A2O, we'd all have MS's and BA's and PhD's, and nobody would make minimum wage - we'd all be orthodontists and everyone would be successful.

{{snark /off}}

The fact that anybody can make it if they work hard does not necessarily mean that everyone can make it. Somebody has to make the sandwiches. Mathematically, somebody will always be in the bottom 10% - that's just how percentages work. The question is, how miserable shall we allow laissez-faire capitalism to make those people on the bottom? Can we do anything about it? Should we?


ETA - I too went back to school. I was 24, had a wife and 2 kids. I got it done, gained a solid skillset and have a great career. I did it with a little help, pell grants, fed guaranteed student loan, and a good -efficient - cheap state school. I didn't do it on my own, and I'm not delusional enough to think I did. Now that I've climbed out of the gutter I refuse to pull that ladder up behind me - as some others might.

Good for you. Just reinforces my point.

(not really...)

Just to address one point you made, Alpha2Omega:

Just because it's easy to find someone for the position you're trying to fill doesn't give you the right to pay them less than a living wage that will allow them to have healthcare, a decent place to live, food for themselves and their kids, enough to save a little for the future, and a few comforts.

There is a minimum wage under which we should not allow corporations in society to go, and it is not the minimum wage we currently have. There are people who bust their butts full time and still need foodstamps because their pay is so low. Who pays for those foodstamps? The taxpayers. Why should corporations be allowed to use people's labor and not pay them enough to sustain themselves and their families?

Maria,
That is a great point and question, however,( and you may not agree) the reason the "market" should dictate wages and not government is because every single person in the country has the ability to further their skillset through training or further education. Yes a person cleaning rooms will not be able to support a family on that income, however, if that same person went to school to become, lets say, a dental hygenist that person would have an average salary of over $60K/ year. This training can be accomplished in less than two years. Low income individuals would qualify for grants and or loans so their is no reason it can not be done. This country provides endless possibilities for those who want to better their lives. Unfortunately, it requires work to be put in by that individual, something that has been continually undermined by the left. The answer is not government. The answer is personal responsibility. Just so you don't think that I am just repeating what I've read, my mother had a high school education when I was born. She had no help and was raising me by herself. She struggled and continued her education and eventually became a registered nurse after years of part time schooling. It was very difficult for her, however, all her hard work has paid off. Our experiences definitely shape our perspectives.

You really do live in a fantasy land... you think that every person out there cleaning rooms for minimum wage is able to go to school for 2 years and come out with a $60k income? Seriously? And how are they supposed to afford a 2 year training program when they can't even keep a roof over their head?

There are people out there working five times harder than you or I ever will, employed at 2 or more jobs, who only get 4 hours of sleep each night because they work 20 hours a day and still manage to keep their kids in school and off drugs. I don't think there's anything you have to teach them about personal responsibility.

It was just an example. There are many more well paying jobs that do not require a 4 year degree. If you would have read my post you would have seen where I said people with low incomes would qualify for grants and student loans. Man, your quick to jump the gun..

Just because you have no faith in them doesnt mean they aren't capable of it. Thats the problem with liberals. They think they have to solve everyones problems. People are much more resilient than you give them credit for.

I merely speak from experience.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Just because you have no faith in them doesnt mean they aren't capable of it. Thats the problem with liberals. They think they have to solve everyones problems. People are much more resilient than you give them credit for.

I merely speak from experience.

So if everyone was hardworking and educated - there would be no poverty or unemployment. People who are suffering economically are suffering because of their own laziness and stupidity. The constant demand for Neurosurgeons proves it... :huh:

{{snip}}
The fact that anybody can make it if they work hard does not necessarily mean that everyone can make it. Somebody has to make the sandwiches. Mathematically, somebody will always be in the bottom 10% - that's just how percentages work. The question is, how miserable shall we allow laissez-faire capitalism to make those people on the bottom? Can we do anything about it? Should we?
{{snip}}

So what about this?

Yes, you are right. Someone will always be in the bottom 10%, however, the expectation(hope) would be that those individuals would take the opportunities this country provides everyone to better their situation and rise from that situation. This country does have many programs in place that cater to the poor such as food stamps, section 8 housing, medicaid(free healthcare) and many others. Of course there are individuals who genuinely need these service and for that reason I believe it is right that the services exist, however, I have personally witnessed the abuse of these services by a significant population. Poverty rates have not significantly dropped in over 40 years. Is that because welfare has created a "culture of proverty"? Income taxes are only paid by the top 50% of the population so to increasingly burden those same tax payers when the bottom 50% have no skin in the game and when there has been no appreciable decline in proverty rates over the last 40 years, to me, is unjust.

Gotta go. I'll need to continue the fun another day. Have a good one.