Stroke Rate: Fast v Slower - A journey of exploration

AquaticQuests

Hi All,

I just thought I would post a thread on this issue, where I can also update my personal experiences on this issue it case anyone may be interested.

Read alot of stuff on stroke rate. There appear to benefits for both a high and slow stroke rate. This discussion presumes, all the other matters relating to body position, rotation, reducing drag, etc remain constant!

Some people seem to have gotten faster by slowing their stroke rate down (http://www.220triathlon.com/training/swim/how-the-ocean-walker-swim-stroke-can-benefit-triathletes/9286.html). Many others appear to have also become significantly faster by increasing their stroke rate (see the people at swim smooth and their thousands of swimmers including this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojt3nkVoYEU).

So it appears it really is an issue of experimenting and finding what works best for you.

In the words of one commentator:

I see a number of types of swimmers in my morning group:

- Ex-swimmers: lower turnover, lots of kicking, excellent streamlining, long glide off the wall, fast
- Ex-Channel swimmer: high turnover, lots of kicking (but she's short), fast
- triathletes: low turnover, too much glide, crappy leg position, slow
- me: no glide, no kick, high turnover, "fast"

I typically hold 20-22 strokes per 25yd length, and hold 1:15s or better for intervals up to 500 (did 11:59 for 1000 this year, though). That's about 80spm.

To improve your turnover without losing speed, you really have to focus on correct and efficient catch and pull: no slipping the hand/arm through the water. I probably give up some of the finish, but that isn't the most important part of the stroke.

Well anyway, I decided to check my stroke rate by having my wife film a length or two of my swimming and using one of those beat counter apps on ipad to get the rate while watching the video. Evidently my stroke rate would appear to be in the region of 60 strokes per minute or slower. It really did look much slower when watching on video then it feels to me when I am in the pool. On the plus side, it was smooth and slick - graceful!

Over the next month or two, I will be experimenting with a very significantly increased stroke rate, to assess what benefits or otherwise that may bring for me.

I have done this by recording a selection of music which I have modified (using the tempo magic pro ios app) to a fixed speed (135 bpm) so that I swim at a steady rate of 67.5 spm. Others use the finis tempo trainer for that! I just prefer the up tempo music to a beep.

Hopefully a month or two will give sufficient time for the body to begin to adjust to the new regime, and allow a real assessment of the benefits/ disadvantages on my speed.
I realise that this rate will push me out of the white zone and into the red zone of this chart (http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html) based on my current speed.
Given that the stroke rate will be fixed and high, i can spend the time ensuring that my stroke mechanics are correct, increasing stroke length (which naturally dropped when the stroke rate was increased) and work on maintaining and retaining form through the course of this gruelling stroke rate. That way I may hopefully fall back into the white range of the graph as my speed hopefully improves. I may tweak the rate downwards at some point if I deem it necessary for the experiment.

I have already had one or two swims on this new regime and for starters, it has been extremely tiring. I am having to stop for a breath every one or two lengths just to catch a breath whereas I could previously go 50 or more lengths non stop. It really has been punishing!
My overall times have also dropped significantly (I am some 6 minutes or so slower over 2.5 km). This may be due to a drop in speed, or due to the frequent stopping for breath and my present inability to perform regular tumble turns, largely due to the fatigue levels I am experiencing at this rate - it really is not my natural rate, and I have never swam at this rate before. So the body is crying - no no no!
Another external factor may also be at play, being that I was out of the pool for 3 weeks before I jumped back in with this new regime, and that could be part of the reason for the deterioration in times.

Anyway for now my time with breaks and all for the 2.5 km at this new regime has dropped to about 60 min over 2.5 km. As the days and weeks progress will update on this thread on what happens.

Feel free to also discuss stroke rate related matters, insights, controversies, here!

AquaticQuests

About 7 swim sessions in, at the new stroke rate (67.5 spm).
Now at 57 min though Still 3-4 min off my old time.
Managing to keep up the stroke rate almost throughout the swim.
Fatigue levels still very high, almost to the point of failure towards the last few laps! Mini rests still there every 1 or 2 laps, and tumble turns are still a no no!

AquaticQuests

Back to 54:45 at the new rate

Macstraw

Fantastic, great work!!!!

fishgutzy

Nice analysis. I lucky if I get 1:50 for 100yards for a 500. But there 'stroke' threads have gotten me focused on my technique more and finding what works better.
I doubt I'll ever get down to 1:30 per 100. I'd be happy if I could maintain 1:50 for my whole 6000 yard swim.

gentlygently

Found myself counting strokes with a purpose today - thanks. (24 or 25 per 25 m , clearly some room for improvement). What is the usual Stroke rate for breast, fly etc?

fishgutzy

Today I mixed it up a little trying notice difference I feel for different stroke count / effort.
Two different ways I shaved 5 seconds off lap time compared to typical cruising speed.
One with a stroke count of 24 per length, faster turn over, faster heart rate too, ~120 at the end of 20 laps this way.
Second, focus on stretch, elongating my stroke and getting the count to 20. About the same lap time. But felt it much more in my triceps than with the shorter stroke. Also, heart rate was lower at the end of 20 laps at this pace. ~100. Yet I had pretty close to the same lap times.
Lessons I got from that is I need to do more arm work in the wait room, and the lower stroke count is definitely more efficient. But still takes a good deal of mental focus since I spent so much time in the 24 stroke range.

AquaticQuests

Fascinating insights there Gutzy! And 5 seconds off a lap ain't nothing to sniff at either!

fishgutzy

AquaticQuests wrote: »

Fascinating insights there Gutzy! And 5 seconds off a lap ain't nothing to sniff at either!

This morning, the cool 73° sped me up
Heater shut off last night.

AquaticQuests

Came across this fascinating analysis (at this link: http://www.swimmingscience.net/2015/10/race-analysis-how-ning-zetao-won-the-100-m-freestyle-at-world-championships.html) a few weeks back which is related to this thread and thought I'd share:

Race Analysis: How Ning Zetao Won the 100-m Freestyle at World Championships

In the 10-m freestyle final, Ning Zetao became the first Chinese male swimmer to win the 100-m at a World Championship competition. Now, understanding the differences in race strategy provides insight into where the race was won.

https://youtu.be/FXKHGPYry9Q

Start

Ning Zetao and McEvoy both have elite reaction times, coming off the block at 0.67 and 0.61 seconds respectively. They both entered the water at 1.2 seconds at an estimated distance of 3.69 m. This puts their entry velocity at ~3.1 m/s. Ning finished his first dolphin kick at 2.3 seconds and used 4 dolphin kicks off the start, compared to McEvoy who ended his first kick at 2.2 seconds and took 3 dolphin kicks. These differences resulted in Ning breaking out ~0.4 seconds after McEvoy. Despite this difference, they both hit the 15-m mark at ~5.35 seconds.

15-25 m

From the 15-25 m mark, both swimmers completed the distance in 8 strokes in 4.7 seconds. This put their distance per stroke at 1.25 meters/stroke and their stroke rate at 102 strokes/minute.

25-35 m

Both swimmers maintained their distance per stroke, taking 8 strokes from 25-35 m. However, Ning had a slightly higher stroke rate and completed this distance ~0.07 seconds faster than McEvoy.

35-50 m

Into the wall, they both took 12 strokes over the past 15-m and finished this distance in the same time, ~7.73 seconds.

First 50 Analysis

Both swimmers utilized very similar first 50-m strategies. They both took 31 strokes and only 0.07 seconds separated the two.

50-65 m

McEvoy had a slightly longer turn, going 7.6 meters off the wall, compared to Ning's 7.1 meters. This resulted in a longer breakout by 0.5 seconds and one less stroke. Moreover, he completed this distance in 0.07 seconds faster than Ning.

65-75 m

Over the next 10-m, McEvoy once again took one less stroke than Ning and swam ~0.4 seconds faster. Their distance per stroke was 1.11 and 1.25 meters/stroke, respectively.

75-85 m

Over the next 10-m, a slight shift occurred. Ning took one less stroke and swam ~0.04 seconds faster than McEvoy. Over this distance, Ning maintained his distance per stroke, where McEvoy reduced it by ~0.25 meters/stroke!

85-100 m

The last 15-meters into the wall, Ning slightly reduced his stance per stroke, but still maintained a higher rate than McEvoy. Ning also took 1 less stroke over this stance and completed it in ~0.09 seconds faster than McEvoy.

Analysis

Overall, Ning Zetao and McEvoy had similar 100-m race strategies. However, Ning Zetao was able to maintain his distance per stroke and likely his biomechanics better than McEvoy over the last 25-m. Can't wait to see the re-match (plus Adrian, Magnussen, and other superstars) at the 2016 Olympics.


Written by Dr. John Mullen, DPT, CSCS. I’m a physical therapist, strength coach, and swimming researcher in Santa Clara, California. I personally love the sport of swimming and started this website while receiving my doctorate at the University of Southern California (USC). At USC, I came across scientific articles on the sport of swimming which I found fascinating! After finding these, I decided to start a blog and share them online. Since then, the website has expanded and now we have an amazing group of contributors from all over the world, which all have the love of swimming and wish to improve the swimming community! I swam my whole life, starting at the age of 4. I was lucky enough to receive a swimming scholarship to Purdue University. At Purdue, I started in Chemical Engineering, before switching to General Health Sciences. After swimming at Purdue, I coached shortly in North Carolina, before starting my Doctorate program at USC. At USC, I did some research on lung capacities and worked with many high level athletes. After graduating, I moved to Santa Clara, CA to be with my current wife (who is also a swim coach) and began doing dryland programming and physical therapy. I currently have my own physical therapy and sports performance center in Santa Clara, CA (www.trainingcor.com) and consult with numerous college and club swim teams.

fishgutzy

Personally, I have found that when my strokes/length count goes up my speed goes down.
I've finally recovered from my last China trip and now stay around 18/19 strokes per length in 25 yard pool. Sometimes I get it down to 17. Time is about 55 seconds per lap. 1:50 per 100. But by the end of 4 miles I sometime fall back a few seconds, but still better than 2:00 per 100.
No where near competitive speeds. But fast enough to get 4 miles in before work

AquaticQuests

fishgutzy wrote: »

Personally, I have found that when my strokes/length count goes up my speed goes down.
I've finally recovered from my last China trip and now stay around 18/19 strokes per length in 25 yard pool. Sometimes I get it down to 17. Time is about 55 seconds per lap. 1:50 per 100. But by the end of 4 miles I sometime fall back a few seconds, but still better than 2:00 per 100.
No where near competitive speeds. But fast enough to get 4 miles in before work

Yep that is often the case because an increase in stroke rate often results in a deterioration in form.
It has personally been a very challenging, difficult and exhausting process to up my stroke rate and regain form. I'm about 8 months into my switch and its only now really that I can consistently maintain the rate while working on lengthening my stroke to where it used to be.
This is a long term switch/process that is also very exhausting and not for everyone (over 55 mins I know take 800-1000 more strokes then I used to over the same distance).

That said, the eventual rewards are good too! My body can now handle a high tempo turnover for sustained periods which was impossible before. I am able to tap into speed as needed much more easily so long as I'm also ensuring long strokes as well.
I'm still not there yet as I still am not doing tumble turns which i could do at old stroke rate. But this is a good thing as it means faster times are still possible, with the aerobic adjustment that would enable me manage tumble turns throughout, and the drops in time that come with that!

My focus is now lengthening the stroke (distance per stroke) and revisiting the catch and body position, even as I wait to get strong enough to tumble turn again!

AquaticQuests

So I'm looking forward to a 5km swim later this month and possibly a 15km swim by year end.
I'm pretty sure I cannot realistically sustain 67.5 strokes per minute for the duration of those much longer swims.
So I'll try to find time to record a playlist at one or two slower stroke rates (eg one at 65 SPM and one at 62.5 SPM) and try to get a feel for which of those work for the longer distances. Hopefully with the strength built up, I may even be slightly faster at those slower rates.

emmab0902

My steady pace stroke rate is about 18-19 per 25m and I can happily keep that up for a pace of about 1.27 per 100m for 1km or so. But in the 100 free I probably take about 20 strokes per 25m for a 1.12 time. But I feel better with lower - always feel like a demented mess at a higher stroke rate lol.

AquaticQuests

Wow just revisiting this thread and I realize it's now been 2 years since I made the conscious decision to crank up the stroke rate.

Wasn't swimming consistently for the second half of last year, and back to it this year.
Safe to say, I'm now a default 67 strokes per minute swimmer. It's taken much of those two years to really feel natural at this rate, but I think it's safe to say this is now my natural stroke rate, and my efforts are largely concentrated on increasing stroke length while maintaining the higher stroke rate!

It's when I'm sitting outside the pool watching others swim that I realize just how different my stroke has become.

Anyway, just an update!

Montepulciano

So read through all this and find it interesting. I have found that as I returned to swimming my focus has been on getting the stroke technique right, to avoid injury and maximize efficiency. With time and conditioning, stroke rate will increase, or that is my theory and I am sticking to it...for now. Perhaps this is a distance swimmer mentality?

emmab0902

I think this is why I'm more suited for the 400 free - can keep my stroke lower and more relaxed - anything above about 63 per minute feels messy to me. I swim the 400m free in 5.32 with a stroke rate of about 55 per minute

rosebarnalice

Interesting. I definitely more suited to distance than speed, and have had a pretty solid 19 strokes per 25 yards for +-10 years.

fishgutzy

I could only increase my stroke rate by radically shortening my stroke. It will take a lot more strength for me to pull faster keeping my current stroke length.
But where my overall focus is long distance rather than speed, I haven't really given it much thought.
Being in China at the moment, I get to feel faster by virtue of the average being so much slower than my Y at home

fishgutzy

Last night I decided to get out of my own way. Again.
After a 20 lap warm up, I sped up my stroke pace while trying to keep the same stroke. Basically, swimming as if I'm 'racing' the guy in the next lane even though nobody was there. I don't have any sort of counter other than my basic lap counter. But if I had to guess, my normal cruising stroke count is probably between 50 and 55 SPM. That's based on a 55 to 57 second lap and 18 to 19 strokes per length.
Pushed enough to feel it more in the primary swimming muscles in the back and shoulders. That dull ache that tells you the muscles are working.
Kept this up to the 60 lap mark. Water sip break for 10 second, then pushed it for another 60. Final 21 laps at a warm down cruising pace with longer stroke.
It will tsake some time to get to a 60+ SPM rate.
I also know that I need to work on my kicking.

dwisehart

Here is a ramp test they did in Australia with a swimmer who, at the end, goes 50 m in 29 secs. He is keeping his stroke count almost consistent (31-34 per 50 m) through the test, but each time they increase the stroke rate (from 45 to 72).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=gB2On3Bi5BM

The results are pretty dramatic (first column is stroke rate):

• 45--44.4 sec
• 48--43.7 sec
• 51--41.1 sec
• 54--40.0 sec
• 57--37.9 sec
• 60--35.5 sec
• 63--34.1 sec
• 66--32.3 sec
• 69--31.6 sec
• 72--29.9 sec