RE: Online Dating....don't you hate it when.................
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I am going to say, though, that a majority of women are hugely responsible for their own problems with their passive approach to dating (which translates in mostly "waiting for it to happen" either on or offline).
As both a woman and an introvert, I'd really like for you to expand on this in concrete terms. Yes, I'm on dating sites and yes I go about my life, do things I enjoy, am out and about in public, meet up with friends, etc. (the typical advice one gets when single...). I don't consider myself 'waiting for it to happen', but I also would be interested in a guy's opinion as to what else I should be 'doing'.
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Don't take it personally - as you might very well put yourself out there just fine. What I wrote was what seems to be the general trend to me, though.
As both a woman and an introvert, I'd really like for you to expand on this in concrete terms. Yes, I'm on dating sites and yes I go about my life, do things I enjoy, am out and about in public, meet up with friends, etc. (the typical advice one gets when single...). I don't consider myself 'waiting for it to happen', but I also would be interested in a guy's opinion as to what else I should be 'doing'.I am going to say, though, that a majority of women are hugely responsible for their own problems with their passive approach to dating (which translates in mostly "waiting for it to happen" either on or offline).
What I mean is that - traditionally - women expect men to do the approach/doing the talking/taking charge/planning dates/paying dates, etc. Or in other words: dating is handled by men. And that's it.
Now the problem this causes is that women's potential pool of partner is limited to the men who approach them personally (which then must moreover match their own specific set of criteria!).
This is further exacerbated online as there is just a very large number of men vs women, which means that statistically men will have to compete harder for women's attention (making women even more the "choosy sex" than they already are - for more on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_choice ), and that statistically women will have to produce even less efforts to get at least some basic male attention.
So my gripe when I go online is that I keep reading a lot of stuff like "looking for Mr Right", "any decent men on this website?", "looking for X, Y and Z" but aside from that mostly empty (or uninteresting: "I like shopping, shoes lol") profiles beneath a couple of decent pictures.
To be clear: lots of demands but little effort seem to be put in achieving that goal - and some people then act surprised.
I too want to be "swept of my feet" but I just don't believe the woman of my dream (who will also happen to be a millionaire if possible - thanks) will just suddenly decide to contact me on a whim for no reason. You've got to not only put yourself out there, but also reach out to the people who seem like they could be good matches (as well as make some efforts to attract whoever you want to attract - you don't catch flies with vinegar... and by effort, I also mean general presentation, weight, conversation, etc.).
As for specific advice, the usual stuff really (valid for both sexes):
- learn to smile and be approachable,
- learn to engage with strangers of the opposite sex,
- learn to "sexualize" the more interesting interactions (keep some attraction going),
- learn to express interest/send signals/be obvious if need be.
I don't know if this is you - but I'd say the problem I see with women who tend to have a lot of male friends is that they often fail to produce "attraction/sexual vibe" and will only present themselves as "friends" (instead of "mysterious/arousing individuals") and will end up friendzoned each time.
I won't lie to you, it isn't easy to find suitable people though, but it's easy to make it harder for yourself too (and I know this all too well myself!).0 -
Flim -- I didn't take any of that personally. I've seen you post here enough to know you had more to say behind that originally statement and I was curious.
I get exactly what you are saying and agree with almost all of it. However, I do take some exception to making the first approach in regard to dating. My personal experience, and from that of friends, is that anytime a woman makes the first move, things never end well. And perhaps I'm jaded here... But, from an evolutionary standpoint, a man needs that instant initial attraction and makes up his mind immediately, while a woman's attraction can grow over time. I guess what I'm saying is that if he doesn't make that first move there IS a reason and I'm not one to argue with the biology of attraction. So, yes, I will write a guy online first or chat him up somewhere, and I am more than willing to plan or pay for dates, but I do need him to take that one step.
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My roommate and I were discussing this very thing this morning. She is online dating right now; I am taking a break (with no end in sight).
I have an analogy for the whole experience that should work for all genders (though it was prepared from my straight female perspective, so I don't know): Online dating is like trying to pick up a really nice rock in a field full of rocks. There are all kinds of rocks to look at, and a seemingly endless supply of them. Some are big and shiny, some are drab and unassuming but may be beautiful upon closer examination. Many refuse to budge when you try to lift them up, so you move on to other, friendlier rocks. And still others, a shocking large percentage, in fact, are not rocks at all, but active landmines waiting for some poor soul to try and pick them up.
You eventually learn the easiest, most obvious signs of 'landminehood,' but some are very cleverly disguised and you don't know what they truly are until you've picked them up and suffered the consequences. You get a little jaded, a little overprotective, as a result. You learn to steer clear of most of the landmines, but do wind up steering clear of a lot of very lovely rocks as well.
Still, there may be a great rock out there for you, so you return to the field periodically. Then leave again, empty handed, wondering if you really need a rock after all.
Great analogy...kinda lays it out there.Who among us hasn't seen greener grass somewhere other than where we were standing.0 -
Thanks @flimflamfloz for your thoughts; I found your tips to be quite axiomatic (something for me to remember):flimflamfloz wrote: »...
- learn to smile and be approachable,
- learn to engage with strangers of the opposite sex,
- learn to "sexualize" the more interesting interactions (keep some attraction going),
- learn to express interest/send signals/be obvious if need be.
...
And, @pa_jorg , I'd like to offer a short additional thought on this bit taken from your post:
This fear of "ending badly" is universal -- Many/most dating relationships do not end well (after all, if things were great and perfect for both parties, then these relationships would have little cause to end, right?).... that anytime a woman makes the first move, things never end well. ...
I'm thinking that the "ending-discomfort level" is more related to the intrinsic mismatch between the two people than which gender 'initiated' anything. In fact, I'd venture the assertion that the "ending-discomfort level" is one of the major factors that actually put people off initiating relationships in the first place. If we all begin a relationship (or choose not to begin one) looking only at how it might end, then... why bother at all?
People in relationships can be said to be mismatched (or incompatible) on any number of criteria; most of which are completely impossible to judge by all-too-brief pre-relationship encounters. Really, when you first find yourself attracted to someone, how could you accurately determine compatibility for life-goals, personal values, preexisting baggage (to include concurrent relationships), child-count/goals, smoking preference, toilet-paper roll feed (over/under), or the other half-billion tangible/intangible items that might make this person non-viable...??
I think to approach someone (to initiate a relationship), we should all consider that it may end for any yet undiscovered reason, but assure ourselves that some relationships do work, and at the very least we will learn something and possibly find joy along the way. if you're not willing to initiate anything, then accept that you're not interested enough in the person pr the situation and do not fault the ending of a relationship that has not yet begun.
The last of @flimflamfloz 's bullets (above) kinda 'speaks' to that point "express interest/send signals/be obvious". If you want a relationship, or could be interested in a relationship,we must cause that relationship to happen.
If nothing else, the end of a relationship is a (*kitten*) learning opportunity on how to select something/someone better next time around. Perhaps a little less fear, and a little more recognition of causality.
TLDR & summary:
Long-winded (sorry, but it's my trademark) yes, but IMHO, a relationship worth having is worth initiating. Most relationships will end for a reason; we all can learn from that, and perhaps learn to be better shoppers next time.0 -
@standenvernet - Yes, I understand what you're saying. I think my 'doesn't end well' was a bit more flip
meaning in the moment than a prolonged dating scenario. At the same time, it is (slightly) reassuring to know that men have some of the same fears because often times you all seem so aloof. Lol0 -
@standenvernet - Yes, I understand what you're saying. I think my 'doesn't end well' was a bit more flip
meaning in the moment than a prolonged dating scenario. At the same time, it is (slightly) reassuring to know that men have some of the same fears because often times you all seem so aloof. Lol
Yeah, really though, I'm confident that you and I feel the same fear and trepidation about these things -- But there are always a few that do not worry about the emotional trauma they will cause (or endure), and IMHO, those seem to be the people that date more frequently, damaging those that are otherwise unsuspecting...
"Aloof"? like in the context of cornered prey? ( I know, NOT! Interesting again, as I kinda get that impression from the ladies now and then -- y'know, when they can't run-away, or take a moment to look back...) Perhaps the 'aloof' is an evolutionary defense mechanism we've developed to help allay actual emotional involvement? Ya gotta admit that appearing 'aloof' is far better than looking like 'deer in the headlights' 
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Idk a lot of guys seem to say that it's ok for a girl to approach a guy, but when it comes down to it, many of them really don't like it. I've had so many men tell me that if a guy is interested, he'll say something.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally if I find a guy attractive, I'll engage him in conversation. It generally becomes obvious pretty quickly if the interest is mutual or not.0 -
Idk a lot of guys seem to say that it's ok for a girl to approach a guy, but when it comes down to it, many of them really don't like it. I've had so many men tell me that if a guy is interested, he'll say something.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally if I find a guy attractive, I'll engage him in conversation. It generally becomes obvious pretty quickly if the interest is mutual or not.
This! So many of them say it's ok, but deep down most (not all) don't really like it IMO.0 -
Anyone from NY here ? Lol0
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You're right, I've heard this too from guys.Idk a lot of guys seem to say that it's ok for a girl to approach a guy, but when it comes down to it, many of them really don't like it. I've had so many men tell me that if a guy is interested, he'll say something.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but generally if I find a guy attractive, I'll engage him in conversation. It generally becomes obvious pretty quickly if the interest is mutual or not.
This! So many of them say it's ok, but deep down most (not all) don't really like it IMO.
I think some of the more confident/traditional men can be a bit stuck up too, and so they might take it poorly (emasculation?), but if a man is more relaxed/chilled out he should be fine about it.
I find the idea of being irritated by this a bit ridiculous personally - what's the harm? Maybe I'm the exception, but I know many men who think as I do (approach, and get approached). But you are correct, I've heard what you are saying too.0 -
I actually saw an outline of a proof that argued that it is better to be the one asking others for dates than it is to be in the role of being asked. The general argument is that if you do the asking you make your way down the list from best perceived (or most desired) potential mate to least desired potential mate. When a potential mate accepts your invitation you know with certainty that no better choice is interested in you.
If you are in the position of being asked, your choices are limited to those who made it down their list until they got to you. You also do not know if you wait that someone better may come along.
Of course the real world is much more complex than the modeling framework being used for the analysis.
I'm guessing that part of the experiences that women have from asking guys out is that they just lack experience in doing it and the presentation is awkward. I've been asked out by 3 women that I can think of in my entire lifetime. One time I said yes because she seemed interesting and it wasn't awkward. On the other two occasions, both the ladies seemed overly desperate and it felt as if I was being asked out because I was the last man on earth.
Some guys will turn you down because they don't like assertive women. Some will turn you down because they are not interested in you. Some may turn you down because they are not used to being in the position of being asked and it caught them off guard. In any of those cases, I'm guessing you'd be better off asking than not.
I guess it comes down to do you want to be with the type of guy who would be turned off by being assertive enough to ask him out?0 -
I'm not afraid to ask a guy out, and I have on a number of occasions. Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. Unfortunately, in my experience, I've found that the guys who have to wait for me to take the lead end up expecting me to take the lead in everything and end up not being particularly ambitious. Granted, this is entirely anecdotal evidence, but I have found it to be true in my own situation.
I think another thing we need to mention is that just because a girl is not asking a guy out, it doesn't necessarily follow that she is passively waiting for a guy to notice her and then deciding if she likes him. When I go to a party and I feel like meeting someone, I pick three guys I like and spend the evening chatting with all of them, never for too long, and always making sure they each see me being social with everyone. I pretty much always end up with a number by the end of the evening. Granted, most of them go nowhere, but the point is these guys are asking because they sense I am interested and they find me interesting enough to get my contact info and give me theirs.
If I am not feeling confident or good about myself, I meet nobody. As far as how people get beyond a few dates and stay together? No clue. I could use some help with that
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with whether or not I am asking someone out, however. 0 -
Also I totally feel as though I described myself as a PUA0
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...But, from an evolutionary standpoint, a man needs that instant initial attraction and makes up his mind immediately, while a woman's attraction can grow over time. I guess what I'm saying is that if he doesn't make that first move there IS a reason and I'm not one to argue with the biology of attraction...
I'm just going to quickly chime in one this. There are lots of reasons guys don't make first moves. I'm a bit of an introvert myself, and I will almost never start a conversation with a stranger. I see people that I find interesting and attractive every day, but navigating the social standards of when it is ok to spark something up is nerve wracking and overwhelming.
I think it's totally fine for a female to make the first move and can't understand why guys would feel different. I've never heard any guy complain about something like this, either. At least saying hello and chatting about whatever mutual thing is going on around you, in the appropriate situation of course.
Anyway, good luck! Meeting people sucks! 0 -
How about we all just agree to go for it if we find we like someone? Maybe I'm in a different mindset; I am an opera singer, so I'm in a career that is basically just one rejection after another until you get a few maybes and one yes. Rejection doesn't scare me, and like I said above, I'm not afraid to tell a guy how I feel.
Seriously though, women are told not to make the first move by every dating advice guru out there. We hear constantly if a man wants us, he'll chase us, and even then we still have to play games to make him think we're not too interested. It's easy to just say on a forum that all us single women need to just step up and ask the dude out, but it's not really that easy.
We also, frankly, have a completely ridiculous set of rules to follow in order to make us attractive to the opposite sex (I mean both genders), and I think it over-complicates things. Women are supposed to be a size two, while men are supposed to have bulging muscles, women need to have a job that isn't embarrassing, but not so good that she shows up her man, while men better be pulling in over a $100 grand if they want someone truly worth their time. It's just ridiculous. I think dating has become incredibly shallow, and if we want to truly be happy with someone, we have to know going into it what we're looking for.
As a side note: I've seen the doods PJ talks to, and dayum! This girl's got it going on0 -
Kat, well said! 0
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After not getting any interest on one dating site I tried my luck with the dreaded Tinder since its free. I had a co-worker that just found her boyfriend on there.
Anyway, I received my first message today from one of the about 10 men I've matched with so far. He messaged me to say that I didn't look my stated age of 29 and that I look 49. When I said that I am 29, I got an "lol, yeah right", and then the suggestion of changing all my profile pictures if I ever wanted to get a date. I told him bye and unmatched him so he can't message me anymore.
I don't know why I bother. I want a boyfriend and eventually a husband, but any time I've tried to get involved with someone it has left a bad taste in my mouth. Today I got more or less verbally berated and in the real world I got lead on and left hanging by a co-worker that said he liked me, and that honestly I was head over heels for.
I will be the first to say that I am one of those girls that "just wait for it to happen". To me, if a guy really likes you and wants you, he'll say something - if he doesn't there's probably a reason why he isn't. Maybe that's why I've never had a boyfriend at 29 years old - but guys tend to go after what they want.0 -
All these "rules" have a biological foundation though (strong/protective man, fertile/fragile woman).We also, frankly, have a completely ridiculous set of rules to follow in order to make us attractive to the opposite sex (I mean both genders), and I think it over-complicates things. Women are supposed to be a size two, while men are supposed to have bulging muscles, women need to have a job that isn't embarrassing, but not so good that she shows up her man, while men better be pulling in over a $100 grand if they want someone truly worth their time. It's just ridiculous. I think dating has become incredibly shallow, and if we want to truly be happy with someone, we have to know going into it what we're looking for.
Yes, "online dating" is incredibly shallow - more so than "offline dating" is. Which is scary when you think it was probably initially meant to help the people who had difficulties meeting others (lack of confidence, not best looking, ...).
Judging by your profile picture here, you could really use a smile (and maybe a different angle). Also maybe get more fashionable frames for your glasses that compliment your facial features/shape better? (we can't see too well so I don't know...)the suggestion of changing all my profile pictures if I ever wanted to get a date
I think smiling is a huge part of looking approachable. It's not always possible or easy (I know!) but not doing it makes you look much more intimidating than you would want to.
I generally hate pictures of myself though, and I don't think I've seen a good one in months if not years.0 -
Flimflamfloz-- you're right. I'm totally idealistic in hoping that perhaps as a society we have gotten to the point of looking past evolutionary expectations of gender roles
I was thinking about this yesterday, and I wanted to follow up by saying that I think the most important aspect of dating is how you feel about yourself. You may not be super hot or rich, but there is something that you have to offer. It's important to know this about yourself in order to show it off to potential dates (hopefully mates!) I think this helps with boosting confidence.
Another thing I do to help myself is find areas that I want to improve about myself. Obviously fitness is a big part of that, and I have gotten to the point where going to the gym every day is one of the highlights of my day! I also work on my singing and generally have a few other projects going to keep myself busy and my mind off the fact that I am single again. It still hurts sometimes, but staying busy helps immensely.
Hope at least some of this helps 0
