Legs dont seem to recover....

prattiger65

I am not looking for specific advice, just general conversation....

49yo male, 5'11" 180lbs. I am midway through Stronglifts and I am also running, probably 20 miles per week. I average @ 100g protein per day and I am netting @ 2100 calories per day. In the last couple of weeks, my legs just don't seem to recovery. I haven't failed at the squat yet, but I will soon. Is this normal? I am obviously not hitting the protein goal, could this be the issue or part of it? I am still cutting and I suppose I just haven't committed to the protein goal during my weight loss. Just curious to what the group thoughts are. SS and Sara, chime in for sure if you want, but im not really asking for hard info from you guys, you are both busy enough. TIA.

SideSteel

I wouldn't be surprised if your protein intake played a role. If I were you I'd consider getting that closer to the 160g mark and objectively observe whether or not you see a difference.

What rate are you losing weight at weekly?

prattiger65

@ 1 pound per week

jacksonpt

FWIW... I was having similar experiences and started this thread.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10083430/proteins-role-in-recovery


Also, following along.

xcalygrl

I have to agree with SS on this one.

I am 5'8, 175-180 pounds, run 20+ miles a week, and don't have a problem with legs recovering, but I'm also eating 140+ grams of protein a day. I eat about 1800 calories a day for my TDEE, which gives me about a 0.5 pound per week loss. I'm also currently squatting almost my body weight without many failures under my belt. (I've deloaded three times: once to fix my form and twice because of sickness (sinus infection and the flu).)

prattiger65

jacksonpt wrote: »

FWIW... I was having similar experiences and started this thread.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10083430/proteins-role-in-recovery


Also, following along.

I have reading to do tonight.....thanks!

DopeItUp

When you say that you aren't recovering, can you explain exactly what you mean?

The suggestions of more protein are good but honestly, I doubt it's going to be a magic bullet (but will certainly help).

Having said that, I saw that you are running 20 miles a week and you're running SL which is heavy squatting 3x a week. And you're in a deficit (which limits recovery). And you're not reaching your protein goal. And you're 49 (sorry, probably not gonna help). I'll bet your legs feel like they're gonna fall off in the near future?

My main suggestion (outside of the previously mentioned "more protein") would be to choose a lifting program that's more suited to be run in conjunction with running and/or a calorie deficit. Squatting heavy 3x a week can be rough enough, adding in the running and the calorie deficit is basically suicide. Think of your muscle recovery as a fuel tank. Every activity drains it, and rest/food refills it. Too much work with too little rest/calories will run that tank dry. Some kind of compromise is most likely going to have to be struck I'm guessing.

That's all just speculation based on what I'm assuming your answer to my first question is going to be.

dearannna

I am by no means an expert so can only speak for my own experience. There are many more experienced lifters and trainers who read and post here. I was following stronglifts with some additional cardio (although not 20 miles of running), dieting, and really struggling with muscle soreness and recovery. I found the following helped:

*making sure that I met my targets in both protein and carbs, I found that increasing my carbs had more of an effect that protein but it may be because I was getting enough protein anyway and my carbs were a little low.

*making sure I was really well hydrated. I thought I drank enough already but upped my water anyway and it helped.

*sleep - this made the biggest difference for me. At least 7 hours a night, more if possible.

*rest days - I need two days completely off a week, I do 6 workouts a week but do better doubling up on lifting and cardio one day rather than exercising 6 days a week. I guess everyone will be different but it might be something to play around with.

Ultimately though squatting three times a week whilst in a long term fairly aggressive calorie deficit was just unsustainable for me. I needed to make adjustments to my weight loss or workout performance expectations. So for example I reduced my deficit for the last few months of last year as strength gains were my priority (and actually changed my program as well because I think I'd reached my ceiling of stronglifts anyway). Since the new year I've increased my calorie deficit again and accept that I'll only get decent legs workouts in twice a week. Any more than that and I'm hobbling round like an old lady all week.

I hope you get it sorted, it drove me stir crazy for a while.

prattiger65

Basically, my legs ache, not "pain" if that makes sense. My upper body get sore, I get the jello shakes, but then the upper recovers and doesn't ache. My legs just feel sore and fatigued.

heybales

How intense and duration for the running?

Same as lifting, the intensity, duration, and frequency all play a part in what that cardio does to you. Is it an intense workout on it's own, or was it more of a recovery workout supporting the lifting?

Short and intense could be just as bad as easy and long duration. Both could be impairing recovery from a good lifting routine.
Then again 3 x weekly of active recovery HR zone (current fad name is fat-burning zone) jogging could help recovery, if not too long.

Then again, what starts to happen many times is you start going into the lifts with slightly tired muscles, you don't actually lift as heavy as your muscles really could do, and therefore it ends up not really being that good of a session, compared to what it could have been.
Then the recovery isn't needed as bad.

And since recovery is impaired in a diet anyway, well, that's the state you could reach.

So be thankful you haven't gotten to the place where it doesn't ache, but you don't make progress in either workout.
But you could be heading in that direction.

What's the ultimate goal for the running, support the lifting, or races at PR's?

prattiger65

I have been ramping up the running recently. My recent weeks look like this, SL M-W-F, run T-TH-SA, 3mi. 4mi. 6mi. Respectively. I just realized I'm not running as many miles as I said in the OP. I have been adding one mile to the Saturday long run each week.

heybales

So running is the focus then if increasing the Sat run, don't even pretend to get the most of the W and F SL sessions, they are just interfering with getting a good run, and you likely aren't getting a good lower body workout anyway compared to not running.

What you could do is limit the damage to one day to truly give a recovery the next day.
Put a hard 3 mile run on Mon right after the SL session with whatever strength you got left.
That allows Wed to still be good session.
Put a hard 4 mile run after the Wed session.
So those runs being hard are not going to be training your aerobic system worth anything for endurance, if that is goal with increasing Sat's distance.
Then Fri do another strong SL session, walk afterwards.
Then Sat or Sun, see if you can do the run 36 hrs after lifting, but still allowing about 36 hours until Monday lifting. So if am lifting, pm run. If pm lifting, Sun am run.
Do the run in bottom of aerobic HR zone to indeed improve the aerobic system for endurance, and hopefully not mess up the recovery to a good Fri session. Nor tire out for a good Mon session.

Those rest days between, just walk.

That's the closest I could get to attempting to do both at the same time in a deficit and still make progress with both.

jo_marnes

I have found similar with stronglifts. Yes I'm different in that I'm female and I don't run so much. But my protein intake is 130 - 160g per day, cals 2200. I do combat as my cardio 2 x per week. My issue with squats is inflexibility and a current inability to perform the squat correctly. My hip flexors and glutes are so tight that it inhibits decent form. I have found this out the hard way - I've torn my glute. Which is a real pain in the *kitten*. Literally. I didn't do this squatting (I did it with jumping lunges) but squatting incorrectly 3 x per week sure hasn't helped.

I would strongly advise you to look into your form and flexibility if you are analysing what the issues are. Overly tight muscles can lead to real problems later down the track. You might find a decent stretching routine will help your legs recover.

sijomial

I also have cardio (cycling) and lifting goals and ultimately you do have to find a compromise or prioritise one over the other. It's part of the reason I don't follow a set lifting program - need the flexibility to allow for recovery.
My priorities change according to the season or if an event is coming up.

Overall it's important to focus on quality of training and not just volume - fatigue/recovery are big parts of that. An intense hill climbing session one day isn't going to allow me to do a useful heavy leg day in the gym the next day and vice versa.

When I trained for my biggest cycling event last year the intensity and sheer volume dictated I had to switch to a "Johnny Bravo" lifting routine for a few weeks. Interestingly it didn't impact my lifts at all when I resumed normal weight training but that may be different for a runner.

prattiger65

Wow, I really appreciate all the feedback. I am a little surprised at how little I know about what I am trying to do. Since this post has morphed a little, let me throw this out there. in 2013 through June of 2014 I lost 60 lbs and was pretty close to my goal weight and had plans to begin bulking to build some muscle. It just so happen that I began a bucket list item and began learning to fly at the end of June and just became consumed with that, got completely off track and gained 25 pounds back. Before when I was cutting, I did SL and liked how I felt and looked. Towards the tail end of that, I was running quite a bit and ran a half marathon last March. Anyway, I have been trying to replicate that, I just don't remember my legs feeling like this last time. I have lost about 7 already but still have 15-20 to go. So, I say all that to say, I don't really have "goals" per se. I lift to keep what I have and I run because I enjoy it and it allows me to eat a little more. I have been avoiding combining lifting and running the same day, perhaps I should rethink that and build in more recovery time as well as focusing in on my nutrition. Again, thank you all! I greatly appreciate you giving me your time and knowledge.

KelicoFit

Believe it or not, your protein intake COULD BE the "magic bullet". Every time you lift, you are breaking down your muscles. When you run long distances, your body actually will begin to fuel itself WITH your muscles. Thus, if you're not eating enough protein, your poor muscles have nothing to rebuild with! And, frankly, that makes them hurt :-)

Keep in mind, as long as you are cutting, you are inhibiting muscle growth. I'm not saying it's impossible to gain muscle strength/stamina, because you certainly can. After reading your post, however, it sounds like a textbook case of "You need to eat more (especially protein)"! This could be why you feel like you may max out on your strength with squats soon. I think you have the right idea - focus on your nutrition, and REST!

Also, if you want to be able to eat more (as you reference above, your motivation for running), try incorporating HIIT into your lifting. You will increase your metabolic rate, WHILE gaining strength and cutting fat.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-the-pro-trainer-possible-to-build-muscle-while-burning-fat.html

bostonwolf

When I was doing a stronglifts type full body workout I found that on occassion one day of rest was not enough for my muscles to recover. I just took it as a sign of old age and rested an extra day before hitting the next workout.

The OP is a wee bit older than me. Might just need to rest a bit more from a really heavy workout.

mulsas

I was running into a similar problem with cycling. As spring would role around and I was getting back on the bike again, the two were leaving my legs just dead. What ended up working for me was a little was breaking up squats to heavy and light days, and going lighter around the days when I rode.

prattiger65

Update, I have increased my protein intake and I have cut back a little on the mileage. I am gonna give this a couple of weeks and see. The idea of a heavy/light squat schedule may have some merit too. I could add another day of rest if necessary, but I don't really want to because.....food.....you know?

SideSteel

KelicoFit wrote: »

Believe it or not, your protein intake COULD BE the "magic bullet". Every time you lift, you are breaking down your muscles. When you run long distances, your body actually will begin to fuel itself WITH your muscles. Thus, if you're not eating enough protein, your poor muscles have nothing to rebuild with! And, frankly, that makes them hurt :-)

Keep in mind, as long as you are cutting, you are inhibiting muscle growth. I'm not saying it's impossible to gain muscle strength/stamina, because you certainly can. After reading your post, however, it sounds like a textbook case of "You need to eat more (especially protein)"! This could be why you feel like you may max out on your strength with squats soon. I think you have the right idea - focus on your nutrition, and REST!

Also, if you want to be able to eat more (as you reference above, your motivation for running), try incorporating HIIT into your lifting. You will increase your metabolic rate, WHILE gaining strength and cutting fat.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-the-pro-trainer-possible-to-build-muscle-while-burning-fat.html

Adding HIIT in a context where someone is already experiencing issues with recovery in their legs is really not a good idea at all.

HIIT will impair recovery, not help it.