Doesn't Counting Calories Count?
FIT_Goat
Posts: 4,224 Member
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Want to argue that counting is important? Go here and let me have it.
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One of the original goals, when we cleaned up the group, was to define the place of calories and calorie counting in regards to low-carb. Given that this is MFP, you'll find a lot of people stress counting calories. It's the nature of the beast. If you wish to count calories or believe that not counting will/does not work for you, then continue to count them. Certainly counting calories doesn't stop low-carb from working. When people ask for help setting their macros, even I ask what their calorie goals are.
With that said, I am going to go the path of "Low Carb Bigotry" and state that counting calories is not part of a low carb diet. You do not need to track anything except carbs. If you keep the carbs low, your calories will take care of themselves.
I openly discourage counting calories and tracking (except where tracking helps you discover the cumulative amount of carbs you're really eating). I tell new people this all the time. I know most ignore it and won't give it a couple months to see for themselves. But, I wish they would. What's the worst that will happen? You might not lose weight for those months? You might gain a little weight? How much will it really set you back? You can always go back to counting calories if it doesn't work for you. It's hard, once you have trained yourself to worry about the calories, to go the other way and start ignoring them.
Switching to low-carb is hard enough on your body without providing it with all the fuel it asks for. Trust your body. Let it adapt before you try and put another stress (calorie restriction) on it. Chances are that it will automatically reduce your calories when it is ready, because you have so much excess stored in body fat.
I find that, for many people, counting calories works as a gris-gris. They may not even care so much about the end number. But, they believe that not counting them will lead to some type of disaster and/or that counting them will prevent bad things from happening. If you find that you need that structure, you can count to your heart's content.
First, here's a very good video:
http://youtu.be/e5ewexMZ1-o
You'll note, he stresses that calories do count. He even says you could gain weight on a high-fat, no carb diet (drinking 10k calories of liquid butter a day). Although, no one would ever do that. And, really that's the whole point. You're not going to want to eat more than your body is able to use. Low Carb is not a denial of the existence of calories. They're there and you'll need to burn off the excess ones you have stored to lose fat.
I have ranted on this several times in the past:
There are several books you can read:
Off the top of my head, this is all I've got. I may add more later. Eventually, I intend to link to this from the launchpad... unless the other group leaders adamantly refuse to allow such heresy to be part of that.
Want to argue that counting is important? Go here and let me have it.
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One of the original goals, when we cleaned up the group, was to define the place of calories and calorie counting in regards to low-carb. Given that this is MFP, you'll find a lot of people stress counting calories. It's the nature of the beast. If you wish to count calories or believe that not counting will/does not work for you, then continue to count them. Certainly counting calories doesn't stop low-carb from working. When people ask for help setting their macros, even I ask what their calorie goals are.
With that said, I am going to go the path of "Low Carb Bigotry" and state that counting calories is not part of a low carb diet. You do not need to track anything except carbs. If you keep the carbs low, your calories will take care of themselves.
I openly discourage counting calories and tracking (except where tracking helps you discover the cumulative amount of carbs you're really eating). I tell new people this all the time. I know most ignore it and won't give it a couple months to see for themselves. But, I wish they would. What's the worst that will happen? You might not lose weight for those months? You might gain a little weight? How much will it really set you back? You can always go back to counting calories if it doesn't work for you. It's hard, once you have trained yourself to worry about the calories, to go the other way and start ignoring them.
Switching to low-carb is hard enough on your body without providing it with all the fuel it asks for. Trust your body. Let it adapt before you try and put another stress (calorie restriction) on it. Chances are that it will automatically reduce your calories when it is ready, because you have so much excess stored in body fat.
I find that, for many people, counting calories works as a gris-gris. They may not even care so much about the end number. But, they believe that not counting them will lead to some type of disaster and/or that counting them will prevent bad things from happening. If you find that you need that structure, you can count to your heart's content.
First, here's a very good video:
http://youtu.be/e5ewexMZ1-oYou'll note, he stresses that calories do count. He even says you could gain weight on a high-fat, no carb diet (drinking 10k calories of liquid butter a day). Although, no one would ever do that. And, really that's the whole point. You're not going to want to eat more than your body is able to use. Low Carb is not a denial of the existence of calories. They're there and you'll need to burn off the excess ones you have stored to lose fat.
I have ranted on this several times in the past:
Calories matter, but you don't [shouldn't] need to count or restrict calories. Hydration also matters, but you don't need to count or restrict water intake. Your body, when operating correctly, will take care of caloric balance without conscious intervention on your own part. Are there possible complicating factors which may prevent your body from operating correctly? Sure. You already found one of them. In the presence of carbs, many people's hormones and metabolic signals get messed up and your body fails to operate correctly. Some medications, medical conditions, and other factors could also hinder proper functioning.
If you eat more calories than your body needs, your body will deal with those calories in some way. They will be stored as fat or burned off (there are many ways they can be used up). You don't really get to choose which one happens. You can decide to exercise more, but if you don't it won't prevent your body from burning them in other ways.
Frankly, I ignore all calorie calculations and advice. I've tracked them all, and found the resultant data to be so full of error as to be useless. Years ago, when I lost weight by restricting, I weighed more and was younger. I was also working out. By all accounts, I should have had a higher TDEE (daily calorie burn). But, if I ate 1,700-1,800 calories a day, I would gain weight. It drove me crazy. These days, I am lighter and older than I was. I rarely work out. I have the same job as before. By all accounts, I should have a lower TDEE. All the calculations say my current TDEE should be about 350 calories a day fewer than before. Instead, I am eating ~2,400-2,500 calories a day and still losing weight.
That's right. I have a lower [estimated] TDEE... I am eating ~700 calories more... by all accounts, if the numbers made sense, I should be gaining more than two pounds a week now or I should have been losing more than two pounds a week then.
Truth is, before I had deprived myself to the point where my body metabolically adapted to the amount I had been eating and it had adapted to the exercise level I was doing. Now, it's almost the opposite.
Anyway, long story short... calories matter, but a lot of things you don't need to control matter. We could say that weight loss was simply a matter of carbon balance. If you lose more carbon each day than you take in, you will lose weight (this is true, btw... the fat you burn becomes carbon-dioxide and water). Good luck trying to count the carbon molecules you consume through food and compare them to the amount you lose through the many ways it leaves your body. Calories are the same basic thing. You may have one easy way they come in, but there are many possible things that can happen to them after that and not all of those are under your conscious control.
I found a large component of low carb was retraining myself to eat the correct amount. I actually had minimum calorie goals, that I would hit, and no maximum calorie goals. Before I hit maintenance, I would eat at least 1,900 calories a day (on average). Below that was only acceptable if the day before had been well over and I truly wasn't hungry. Usually, I would hit a little more than that.
Will you see some weight fluctuations right at the start? I did. You'll have to give your body time to settle and trust that it will.
For me, calories matter much less than carbs. When I add nuts, tons of veggies (particularly non-green ones), fruit, most dairy, sugar-alcohols, artificial sweeteners, etc. I find my calories rise. I can avoid that by tracking every item I eat, which is just not how I choose to live. The other option, for me, is to just avoid them on a general basis. It may be similar for you, except that you want to include a certain amount of calories that aren't filling to get you up to the range you need to eat to stop losing weight.
There are several books you can read:
- "Good Calories Bad Calories" By Taubes
- "Why We Get Fat" By Taubes
- "The Calorie Myth" By Bailor
Off the top of my head, this is all I've got. I may add more later. Eventually, I intend to link to this from the launchpad... unless the other group leaders adamantly refuse to allow such heresy to be part of that.
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The idea of not counting calories scares me and yet my goal is to get to a place where I don't need to. It would certainly make things easier to just count carbs. I'd like to say I'll start tomorrow but somehow I think I'll count anyway lol.1
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LOL, don't worry. I've no judgement. It was a hard thing for me to do when I gave up counting. I had to do it in baby steps myself. I stopped weighing and measuring. I just eyeballed. Then I just recorded what I ate, not the amount. Then I just recorded it if it had carbs. Like I said, it took a while.
Worst case scenario, you keep counting calories. Low carb will work anyway. It's just not required for it to work.2 -
Ok I'm going to track carby foods only tomorrow, Monday, until Friday AM because that is my weigh in. I should mention I can easily go all weekend and not count anything lol. Or I used to at least.0
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Horray FitGoat… what happens to ANYONE outside a LC discussion is they get blasted, and reviled if they mention not looking at just calories.
Example: I explained I didn't lose weight for 12 months on a dietitian designed 1400 (many carbs) diet 1) because of severe Sleep Apnea, and 2) After SA treatment I STILL ate too many damn carbs to lose! ( I cited several National & Pubmed studies on obesity and apnea..didn't matter. ) I now am losing with Keto HF..and enjoying every day.
A strict CICO Fascist will rigidly insist it's always CICO.
CICO is a thermodynamics measure of fuel formula..but we aren't machines!
My new motto: "Honor Nutritional Diversity"… we are so PC on everything else human, but insist we all MUST lose weight exactly the same..nonsense! Go Me!5 -
Yes keto..gurl. I was just reading a thread on the community page and they were tearing apart a girl because of her 60 carb a day max. I am glad i didn't post anything over there. Because i stay even lower
And fitgoat.. Thanks for the reminder. Its so hard not to count calories. But Im trying.2 -
I don't count calories, I track solely for carb count. Some days I eat 1500 calories, some days I eat 3000. Depends how hungry I am. For the record: I am very heavy, almost 50, female, not very active and peri-menopausal. Last I checked I lost 14kgs (30lbs) in 13 weeks.5
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I don't count calories, I track solely for carb count. Some days I eat 1500 calories, some days I eat 3000. Depends how hungry I am. For the record: I am very heavy, almost 50, female, not very active and peri-menopausal. Last I checked I lost 14kgs (30lbs) in 13 weeks.
That's a pretty amazing weight loss! I've also have periods where my intake was all over the place. I would have a day where I was way high like 3000 and then maybe a couple days down around 1500-1600. Over a week or two, I found that I was naturally averaging 1900-2000 calories automatically. Coincidentally, that was right around my "goal" that I had been trying for before. Once I realized that, I started to really trust my body more and gave up even more control over what I was tracking.0 -
I try to post in the low carb threads in the main forums. Partly because I want to defend the low Carber and partly because the arrogance of the CICO people just gets me every time. Plus it's fun to poke the tiger once in awhile and I was brought up by a family of debaters.
Santana - great job on the loss.1 -
I track calories to make sure I'm eating enough.
When I first started LC (I use the protein power plan) I found my stomach shrank and I was full with only about 1000 calories a day. and that is just too low.1 -
I try to post in the low carb threads in the main forums. Partly because I want to defend the low Carber and partly because the arrogance of the CICO people just gets me every time. Plus it's fun to poke the tiger once in awhile and I was brought up by a family of debaters.
Santana - great job on the loss.
I do it mainly to fight their disinformation, like the lifter who tries to play the "no carb" card when she pops into a thread, so it has to be explained like talking to a 2 year old that low and no are two different words.0 -
I don't count calories, I track solely for carb count. Some days I eat 1500 calories, some days I eat 3000. Depends how hungry I am. For the record: I am very heavy, almost 50, female, not very active and peri-menopausal. Last I checked I lost 14kgs (30lbs) in 13 weeks.
May ask how low you keep your carb macro? I am still trying to find what works for me.
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I try to post in the low carb threads in the main forums. Partly because I want to defend the low Carber and partly because the arrogance of the CICO people just gets me every time. Plus it's fun to poke the tiger once in awhile and I was brought up by a family of debaters.
Santana - great job on the loss.
I do it mainly to fight their disinformation, like the lifter who tries to play the "no carb" card when she pops into a thread, so it has to be explained like talking to a 2 year old that low and no are two different words.
Or the guy who knows everything and everyone else is an idiot for even questioning something he may do.0 -
I am not a closed system. I interact with my environment through a number of pores and orifices, and I do not care to track my output in order to calculate the necessary input required according to the laws of thermodynamics. Living in a bomb caloriimeter would seriously cramp my style.2
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i am relatively new to the low carb way of life, so please forgive if i sound ignorant or confused. I started working with a nutritionist in January who has been helping me to a gentle adjustment -- in fact, I just went into ketosis about a week ago. (i dont have to tell you guys how amazing it is to watch the weight just falling off, all the while feeling healthier and more energetic than ever).
so, i continue to count calories, as well sodium. my weight was so high, when i started, and my eating patterns so unhealthy, that i want all of the information i can obtain about the changes i am making. i count time, too -- how long between meals, for example, and minutes of exercise. plus my weight, and my measurements.
so, my question is: isn't all information useful, including the number of calories i am eating?0 -
cathy120861 wrote: »i am relatively new to the low carb way of life, so please forgive if i sound ignorant or confused. I started working with a nutritionist in January who has been helping me to a gentle adjustment -- in fact, I just went into ketosis about a week ago. (i dont have to tell you guys how amazing it is to watch the weight just falling off, all the while feeling healthier and more energetic than ever).
so, i continue to count calories, as well sodium. my weight was so high, when i started, and my eating patterns so unhealthy, that i want all of the information i can obtain about the changes i am making. i count time, too -- how long between meals, for example, and minutes of exercise. plus my weight, and my measurements.
so, my question is: isn't all information useful, including the number of calories i am eating?
It is useful, as long as you keep it in perspective and don't let it rule your life.
If you peruse the main forums, you'll find a number of people getting so hung up on calories that they nearly have a panic attack if they're 50 calories over one day, or they feel like they have to eat only 1200 (total) per day, even though they're exercising 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, and feel like death warmed overs. There are even people who will come to the board, asking for help, because they're eating 1000 or 1200 calories and still not losing weight, and 95% of the responses are "you're eating too much." Wait....what?
Then, when low carb enters the picture at all, and someone says that they've found more success with it, there are a dozen or so people who will immediately jump to "but it was really CICO. Low carb just helped you stay within your calories. You claim you're eating the same amount of food, but you were probably eating more than you think before." (Translation -- "you're lying in one or more place").1 -
cathy120861 wrote: »[. . .]i want all of the information i can obtain about the changes i am making. i count time, too -- how long between meals, for example, and minutes of exercise. plus my weight, and my measurements.
so, my question is: isn't all information useful, including the number of calories i am eating?
You're talking to the king of information. I had autogenerated charts comparing my [rolling average] calories against my rate of weight loss. I tracked macros, ketogenic ratio, estimated calories from my FitBit, and I tracked all of these against my rate of weight loss to see what had the greatest effect. The end result, there was no strong relationship between any of them. Sure, when I ate fewer calories I lost a little faster. When I ate more, I lost a little faster. But, the effect was not as strongly tied to the results as the CICO crowd would want you to believe.
The end result, track to your hearts content, but don't believe the numbers tell you much of anything meaningful. I wouldn't even waste time aiming for certain numbers. Track them, sure, but don't aspire to any certain number or range of numbers. Eat until you're satisfied. Move as much as you feel like. Eat when you're hungry. And, learn to trust your body to do what's right.
Information is cool. It's interesting. It can be useful to look for trends in past results. It is decidedly not useful when you're using it to determine goals, dietary intake, etc. The body you are in today is not the body you were in yesterday. The body you're in a month from now will vary from this current body in many ways. But, the real problem is that you're significantly worse at knowing what your body needs and what your body will do with what you eat than your body ever will be. Feed it right, remove the stuff that's making it work poorly, and the rest will take care of itself.3 -
Brilliant FIT_Goat. Thanks for a clear and relevant explanation of how to utilize this WOE. I do feel like I am a test rat in my own science experiment, but that's OK!
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I think for a lot of people (younger, male, significantly overweight...), not counting calories will work on LCHF. For me it hasn't so I'm tracking and limiting, although targeting the correct macros within calories. I don't believe in CICO per se, but I'm over 50, menopausal, and victim of many diets. I don't have a lot to lose, about 25 pounds. I too keep an extensive spreadsheet of everything and analyze the heck out of it. I gave LCHF with no focus on calories 6+weeks, with only initial 3 pound water weight loss. Love the WOE and limiting calories is not a problem for me, I get plenty, am not hungry. The scale is just barely starting to move after 2 weeks of 1375-1600 calorie targets.3
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thanks for the video, i bought the book. Calorie counting and carb level and veggies and fruit have all been on my mind.0
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IamUndrCnstruction wrote: »I don't count calories, I track solely for carb count. Some days I eat 1500 calories, some days I eat 3000. Depends how hungry I am. For the record: I am very heavy, almost 50, female, not very active and peri-menopausal. Last I checked I lost 14kgs (30lbs) in 13 weeks.
May ask how low you keep your carb macro? I am still trying to find what works for me.
My carb count is all over the place. My aim is under 20g. I might do that for 4-5 days and then have 30g. At least once a week I have 40g. About once a month I've had a 100g but I'm not doing that anymore because I felt physically ill for a couple of days after having a pizza and garlic bread dinner. Under 100g is still considered low carb. marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/#axzz3KaeLoOoM
I eat when I'm hungry. That might consist of snacking all day or it might be 2 meals a day. Some days I eat early in the day, some days it's midday before I'm hungry. I'm more interested in tuning in to my body. It knows when it's hungry. My only definite routine is that I like to wake up with a cup of coffee and a big dollop of cream with one sugar. Because I like it with one sugar and I work it into my macros.
My philosophy:
This is life. It has to be sustainable for the rest of it. If I want to have a piece of battered fish once a week, I'm going to have a piece of fish. Because I like it and want it to be part of my life. Some things (like chips) I can give up and it doesn't bother me.
My time frame for being in being shape is 7 years. I've lost weight fast and that's great. I don't know if that's sustainable. If it is, great, if not, so be it. I'm not in any hurry. I'll get there eventually.
My weight also fluctuates. It can go up and down 3 kgs (7 lbs) a day. So I don't weigh myself very often. Whenever I think about it. My clothes are much looser and that's mostly good enough for me.
I'll adjust this plan as I go along. It might need some tweaking. As I get lighter, I know I'll want to do more activity so I'll do that. I might not be as hungry when I'm lighter. Then again, I might not. There are no absolutes in life apart from death and change.
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@Sajyana I positively love your outlook! Mine is much the same. I haven't encountered any foods I couldn't live without yet, but I've only been doing this about 40 days. 0
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@Sajyana Thank you. Such a wonderful way of looking at life, and one people should learn from.
This whole thread has given me so much to think about. The video too. Thanks!!!1 -
No one can ever tell me again that a calorie is a calorie. When I did CICO a couple years ago, it took me 3 1/2-4 months to lose 35 lbs and I was actually exercising more and eating 100-200 less calories a day and this time on keto I've kept my net carbs under 25 from the start (now under 22) and the first couple weeks ate around 1900 cals, recently between 13-1800 depending on the day and what I feel like eating. I've lost 37 lbs now in 2 months, so pretty much twice as much as I was losing with CICO. It's just freakin flying off. It's like my body knows where it's supposed to be and is racing to get there. I LOVE it and I LOVE keto. 3
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This is all so new to me, I'm learning a lot from you all and this is extremely interesting and inspiring. Right now I'm just lowering the total carbs - 120 max (which is likely a lot for those on LCHF, but I've cut out all bread, rice, pasta, potatoes and highly processed foods). I'm trying to regain a sense of portion control (so the calories for me are a guide line - I don't sweat if I go over or under, just so I have a feeling of fullness and am losing weight.) I lost 5 pounds doing this in about 2 weeks along with exercise, but likely the pounds won't come off so quickly now...My goal is to be healthy. I plan on seeking out a nutritionist with low carb credentials and I'll have several weeks of MFP records to show to see what I need to change in the future.
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Goat this is the best thread ever! It should be put at the very top of the Launch Pad! I've been trying to wrap my head around the calorie conundrum ever since joining MyFitnessPal. Up until this point I hadn't been paying attention to calories and still lost a significant amount of weight but I couldn't really articulate why. I just watched the video from start to finish and it was simply fantastic! Heading to the library tomorrow to check out The Calorie Myth to learn more.
Favorite Points Covered:- If you focus on the quality of what you eat, the quantity will take care of itself
- It is truly impossible to accurately track calories in and even harder to track calories out
- Changing the quality of what you eat will cause you to burn more calories than any exercise ever will
- Sugar is more addictive than cocaine
- Calorie counting only works for 4.6% of the population
- Exercise is also about quality not quantity
- Eating fat doesn't make you fat, it makes you full
- You burn more calories in the process of burning protein vs carbohydrates
- Become Fat Adapted vs Sugar Adapted
- Sometimes the pursuit of health can become unhealthy. If you just stick to eating non-starchy vegetables, nutrient dense protein, whole fat, and low fructose fruits, in that order, you will be fine.
The one thing I'm not totally sold on (and I know you're not either) is the idea of eating 10 - 12 servings of vegetables a day. I can't see myself eating that much food, but he does say if you've found a lifestyle that works for you, even if it is calorie counting, then by all means keep it up!2 -
Lowcarbheart, hippygirl, et al. you have no idea how happy I am that this thread helped you. LowCarbHeart those points are really some of the key ones from that video. My rants are not nearly as eloquent as he is, but I pasted them anyway because I know some people won't watch an hour long video.
My opinion on vegetables is "controversial" to say the least. LOL. Frankly, if vegetables help someone with being low-carb (and I think for a lot of people they provide at least a mental shield for coping with the high fat content of this way of eating), then eat as many low-carb vegetables as you desire. Obviously some are better than others, especially in regards to carb count, but even some of the worst ones (not counting those that are pure starches like potatoes) are hard to really get fat with. Have you ever heard of someone getting obese from eating carrots?
Regardless, just because I don't agree with every point he makes doesn't mean I don't think the core of his message is right and beneficial for people to hear. Quality of food first and quantity takes care of itself. I just refer to it as watching the carbs first, and the calories take care of themselves.
I'm just glad that this thread helps some people. In the end, if someone reads this and wants to count calories, that's really not the end of the world. Or, if someone reads this and tries it, but finds they need to count or they overeat, that's fine too. I believe there may be underlying hormonal, medical, behavioral, or other underlying issues that prevent some people from relying on their body even when restricting carbs. I believe that many of these issues resolve with the retraining eating this way brings, so it may not be permanent, but they may exist for some people.3 -
Brilliant FIT_Goat. Thanks for a clear and relevant explanation of how to utilize this WOE. I do feel like I am a test rat in my own science experiment, but that's OK!
The cool geeky term is "biohacker" in an "n=1" experiment!
I too track cals still, mostly just to keep myself motivated. I have a fear that if I don't track on MFP everyday, I will eventually slip back into carbland and gain it all back again. So this keeps me accountable. Lately, I have been less strict, and going over on my day's calorie allotment doesn't bother me... At least it won't until the jeans start to fit tight!
kcko!
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I can't say that I won't continue to count...at least for awhile, but this thread has made me think. Today, I weighed myself. The scale had not budged from last week. Now, in the past I wouldhave freaked out. I would have immediately dropped my calorie intake. Today, I just stepped off, thought about the fact that I am eating good food, I feel good, I have energy to work out....and the pants I put on are too big. So, to borrow a phrase I have heard here, keep calm and keto on.1
This discussion has been closed.