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Lowish carb, but not keto
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Thanks. I appreciate your input, and I hang out here because of the low-key vibe. Despite appearances to the contrary, I'm not fighting anybody, and I'm not-so-secretly looking for a compelling reason to get off the fence.
FWIW, I was starting to get the impression that you were looking for someone to validate your negative feelings about keto or reasons to not go keto. Or something to that regard, almost like you're feeling pressured to do it, and you're reacting accordingly.BTW, I assume everybody knows Peter Attia, an MD who blogs and talks keto. I like the way his diet has evolved. Looks a bit more like Jonathan Bailor's approach these days:
http://eatingacademy.com/personal/actually-eat-part-iii-circa-q1-2014
A ton of veggies. I could do that. Maybe.
There are a couple of things to keep in mind about Dr. Attia's lifestyle with regard to the way he eats:
1. All the veggies are non-starchy (except the carrots) and low sugar.
2. He works out more/at higher intensity in a day than most people do in a week, thereby using any extra carbs he's eating. (see also: http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist )
3. He's no longer overweight (which can change how the body reacts to ketogenesis).
He may not be in ketosis anymore on a regular basis, but given that he eats on average 3,300 calories, and sometimes upwards of 5,000 calories, and his vegetables are nearly all low calorie, non-starchy ones, I'd be surprised if he wasn't pretty damn close or even went in and out on a regular basis.wabmester, almost all reports of electrolyte issues come during the adaptation phase (hence the "after two weeks of hard-core keto" part of the experience you quoted). During that phase, you should almost certainly supplement salt, potassium, and magnesium. As someone becomes adapted, their body is no longer losing excessive amounts of water weight, and it becomes better at regulating the needed electrolytes and stops shedding excessive amounts. At that point, you no longer need the supplements. It's more a matter of helping your body during the adjustment phase.
I haven't taken any supplements of any sort for almost a year, except maybe salting my food, and my recently tested blood levels of sodium and potassium are right in the normal ranges. You can't get any more ketogenic than my diet.
Anyway, my point isn't that supplementation is never necessary. It's just that it's probably not necessary for life. If someone was to stop supplementing and start experiencing signs of low potassium or magnesium (or have blood tests which signal low levels), then I would say they need to start supplementing again.
There is plenty of potassium, magnesium, and sodium (even without added salt) in the food we eat to maintain healthy serum levels once a person has fully adapted to the ketogenic diet. There's also little need to supplement anything else. If someone was concerned about phytonutrients or fiber, they should be able to easily reach their desired levels by including some leafy green veggies.
Edit: If my recent blood tests included a test of magnesium levels, I failed to notice it. Nothing on my test was out of the expected range. I just can't confirm they tested the Mg.
This was mine, too. I've never supplemented potassium, and I'm horrible about eating potassium-rich foods. I'm also not a big salt fan, and so I don't generally add much, if any, salt to my food. Both my potassium and my sodium levels were spot on. Magnesium wasn't tested.
I don't supplement anything related to keto. I don't even bother with a mutlivitamin. What I do supplement are for specific purposes -- hyaluronic acid for my degenerative spinal discs, Inositol for insulin control for PCOS, probiotics due to recent rounds of antifungals and antibiotics, and Vitamin D for tested deficiency (most likely due to the test having been run in January, and I'm in an area that doesn't get a lot of sun, especially in winter).0 -
The Attia experience appeals to me because he's obviously reaping the benefits of a ketogenic diet, but perhaps improved his carb tolerance and can now enjoy his veggies.
To me, that's more of a sustainable lifestyle. In that framework, ketosis is just the Atkins "induction phase," but a bit longer.
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Also, I know most keto people continue to supplement potassium and magnesium after adaptation, just in case. I am not completely supportive of this. Heck, who are we kidding? I am anti-supplements 99% of the time. I just worry about too much potassium. That is possible and the effects are just as dangerous as those of too little. Granted, it shouldn't be a problem even with excessive supplementation (because the excess will just be excreted by the kidneys--assuming no kidney problems). I still don't like supplementing without concrete evidence of a need.
This. When I say I've never had keto flu, I don't mean I use supplements. My RD set out clear guidelines of things to include in my diet to keep those levels up automatically. I do keep them on hand, as you mention, because my meds can cause those levels to dip once in a while even when I am being strict about including them in what I eat and drink.
@JPW1990 I'd love to know which items to include in your diet specifically to keep the levels up. I hate taking supplements I don't need, but I can tell so far that I'm not getting everything I need... So, please share, if you will. TIA!0 -
@wabmester, if you have decided this diet isn't for you, then i am not sure why you are wanting to be persuaded "into" trying it. In a group of people that admittedly like it. I think i speak for all of us when i say we support the level of carbs that work for you-but going into it expecting it not to be sustainable is a good way to make it not work long term. if you have done the research, which it seems you have, and have decided a sweet tooth is natural and keto flu is your body rebelling against the diet, i am not sure our experiences can help. Perhaps i am misunderstanding. And i know staying away from sweets is hard. Trust me! I'm definitely an addict to sweets.0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Also, I know most keto people continue to supplement potassium and magnesium after adaptation, just in case. I am not completely supportive of this. Heck, who are we kidding? I am anti-supplements 99% of the time. I just worry about too much potassium. That is possible and the effects are just as dangerous as those of too little. Granted, it shouldn't be a problem even with excessive supplementation (because the excess will just be excreted by the kidneys--assuming no kidney problems). I still don't like supplementing without concrete evidence of a need.
This. When I say I've never had keto flu, I don't mean I use supplements. My RD set out clear guidelines of things to include in my diet to keep those levels up automatically. I do keep them on hand, as you mention, because my meds can cause those levels to dip once in a while even when I am being strict about including them in what I eat and drink.
@JPW1990 I'd love to know which items to include in your diet specifically to keep the levels up. I hate taking supplements I don't need, but I can tell so far that I'm not getting everything I need... So, please share, if you will. TIA!
My big one is avocado, that's almost every day, and I use it for everything from a side dish to a mayo substitute. Spinach and fish, too. Those cover potassium and magnesium. Mushrooms and celery add more potassium, flax and nuts (I usually do pecans and peanut butter) add more magnesium. Now, with that said, since the advent of water flavorings, I don't have to be as careful as I used to. It's good because I eat flax, but I don't really like it much, so the less I have to, the better. Most of the water drops have one or the other or both, potassium and magnesium. Before those came along, I also used salt substitute for similar reasons.
My meals have been weird lately, since I'm still getting over being sick, but normally, avocado, mushroom and spinach are daily, tuna several times a week, with pecans chopped in the tuna salad. Celery and pb often get thrown in as a snack or light dinner.
The thing I have to be the most careful of is sodium, but that's because I have to walk the line between having enough for keto, while not having so much that I make my circulation issues worse. I do 99% of my cooking at home because of an allergy issue, so that makes it a lot easier for me to control it.0 -
@wabmester, if you have decided this diet isn't for you, then i am not sure why you are wanting to be persuaded "into" trying it. In a group of people that admittedly like it. I think i speak for all of us when i say we support the level of carbs that work for you-but going into it expecting it not to be sustainable is a good way to make it not work long term. if you have done the research, which it seems you have, and have decided a sweet tooth is natural and keto flu is your body rebelling against the diet, i am not sure our experiences can help. Perhaps i am misunderstanding. And i know staying away from sweets is hard. Trust me! I'm definitely an addict to sweets.
Mmm, candy. But no, my <100g/d carbs doesn't have a large candy component. Wait, is dark chocolate considered candy? Uh oh.
I'm keto-curious. I'm surprised that here in the LC forum (as opposed to the keto forum), it appears to be keto-dominated. So consider this thread an expression of surprise and a shout-out to all moderate carb consumers. Come on in, the water is fine!
I'm certainly not anti-keto. It does seem like a less sustainable level of carb intake for me, and given the high failure rates of ALL diets, sustainability seems like a key to success.
So I'm trying to reconcile the benefits with the costs. Thinking out loud via this thread.
And most of the input has been very helpful. Thanks to all!
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GaleHawkins wrote: »To date I have not found a compelling reason to tempt myself with carbs again in part because I am having too much fun with Fats.
I'm just starting out on Atkins 20 and finding this to be very true right now. I'm quite enjoying experimenting with all this "forbidden" stuff. It's rather nice. I have flavor exploding everywhere again. It's nifty.
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I'm keto-curious. I'm surprised that here in the LC forum (as opposed to the keto forum), it appears to be keto-dominated. So consider this thread an expression of surprise and a shout-out to all moderate carb consumers. Come on in, the water is fine!
That's probably my fault. Sorry. I am a pretty prolific poster and I tend to the ultra-low carb side. There's definitely a place for all levels of low-carb here. Heck, my initial foray into low-carb was just to be under 100g a day (after watching "Fat Head"). There are more moderate folks here. I'm not sure why they don't post more often.
Also... "keto-curious"... I love this. LOL0 -
Also, I know most keto people continue to supplement potassium and magnesium after adaptation, just in case. I am not completely supportive of this. Heck, who are we kidding? I am anti-supplements 99% of the time. I just worry about too much potassium. That is possible and the effects are just as dangerous as those of too little. Granted, it shouldn't be a problem even with excessive supplementation (because the excess will just be excreted by the kidneys--assuming no kidney problems). I still don't like supplementing without concrete evidence of a need.
So without knowing what exactly this supplement has in it, I would say most potassium supplements are low enough to render themselves useless! A daily requirement is like 3500, and supplements are like 80mg. So I take Nusalt and balance to my need. BUT I log my food first to see what is actually lacking! I have had a documented blood deficiency so this and eating high potassium foods is how I manage it.
I also didn't want to take calcium supplements until I came back with low blood calcium...I do the same for that... Log and see how much more I need from supplements
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@wabmester, if you have decided this diet isn't for you, then i am not sure why you are wanting to be persuaded "into" trying it. In a group of people that admittedly like it. I think i speak for all of us when i say we support the level of carbs that work for you-but going into it expecting it not to be sustainable is a good way to make it not work long term. if you have done the research, which it seems you have, and have decided a sweet tooth is natural and keto flu is your body rebelling against the diet, i am not sure our experiences can help. Perhaps i am misunderstanding. And i know staying away from sweets is hard. Trust me! I'm definitely an addict to sweets.
Mmm, candy. But no, my <100g/d carbs doesn't have a large candy component. Wait, is dark chocolate considered candy? Uh oh.
I'm keto-curious. I'm surprised that here in the LC forum (as opposed to the keto forum), it appears to be keto-dominated. So consider this thread an expression of surprise and a shout-out to all moderate carb consumers. Come on in, the water is fine!
I'm certainly not anti-keto. It does seem like a less sustainable level of carb intake for me, and given the high failure rates of ALL diets, sustainability seems like a key to success.
So I'm trying to reconcile the benefits with the costs. Thinking out loud via this thread.
And most of the input has been very helpful. Thanks to all!
I am nit keto I am low carb Paleo. I eat 50g-75g. net a day. Nobody here is really that militant, even the strong keto people are tolerant of others.0 -
I hope you're logging somewhere other than MFP, if you're logging to track micronutrients. MFP is notoriously bad at accuracy for them. In a recent thread about this I pointed out how MFP under-reported my potassium intake by a factor of 17 times. I was over 4,200 mg and MFP said 252 mg for the same food. That 4,200 mg was simply from food and coffee. Not even food with high sources of potassium.0
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I hope you're logging somewhere other than MFP, if you're logging to track micronutrients. MFP is notoriously bad at accuracy for them. In a recent thread about this I pointed out how MFP under-reported my potassium intake by a factor of 17 times. I was over 4,200 mg and MFP said 252 mg for the same food. That 4,200 mg was simply from food and coffee. Not even food with high sources of potassium.
Definitely this. I have been dual tracking here and SP since January, because MFP doesn't even recognize most of the things I need to count, and what it does recognize is usually 1000 or more lower than the number I get on SP.
Frankly, I need to decide soon if the convenience of the net carb script is worth the trade off of having to track everything twice, when that's the only thing I can't do easily on SP.0 -
What's SP?
Oh, and when it comes to trying for accuracy on Net Carbs, MFP can be bad about that as well. It'll round up on carbs; so I dual log here and on My Fat Secret as it goes into decimal points to give me a more accurate measure. It can be harder to input things on MFS, but I prefer the accuracy.0 -
SparkPeople. Their food entries have every macro and micronutrient you can think of. Not all the user entries fill in all the blanks, but the USDA ones have it, and you can always enter as much of it as you can find when you enter your own. Sounds like MFS uses the same system. One of the things that irritated me most when I came here was how MFP rounds everything to whole numbers. I don't mind it so much if I'm dealing with a partial serving being rounded up, but not when I'm entering a whole new food.0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Also, I know most keto people continue to supplement potassium and magnesium after adaptation, just in case. I am not completely supportive of this. Heck, who are we kidding? I am anti-supplements 99% of the time. I just worry about too much potassium. That is possible and the effects are just as dangerous as those of too little. Granted, it shouldn't be a problem even with excessive supplementation (because the excess will just be excreted by the kidneys--assuming no kidney problems). I still don't like supplementing without concrete evidence of a need.
This. When I say I've never had keto flu, I don't mean I use supplements. My RD set out clear guidelines of things to include in my diet to keep those levels up automatically. I do keep them on hand, as you mention, because my meds can cause those levels to dip once in a while even when I am being strict about including them in what I eat and drink.
@JPW1990 I'd love to know which items to include in your diet specifically to keep the levels up. I hate taking supplements I don't need, but I can tell so far that I'm not getting everything I need... So, please share, if you will. TIA!
My big one is avocado, that's almost every day, and I use it for everything from a side dish to a mayo substitute. Spinach and fish, too. Those cover potassium and magnesium. Mushrooms and celery add more potassium, flax and nuts (I usually do pecans and peanut butter) add more magnesium. Now, with that said, since the advent of water flavorings, I don't have to be as careful as I used to. It's good because I eat flax, but I don't really like it much, so the less I have to, the better. Most of the water drops have one or the other or both, potassium and magnesium. Before those came along, I also used salt substitute for similar reasons.
My meals have been weird lately, since I'm still getting over being sick, but normally, avocado, mushroom and spinach are daily, tuna several times a week, with pecans chopped in the tuna salad. Celery and pb often get thrown in as a snack or light dinner.
The thing I have to be the most careful of is sodium, but that's because I have to walk the line between having enough for keto, while not having so much that I make my circulation issues worse. I do 99% of my cooking at home because of an allergy issue, so that makes it a lot easier for me to control it.
No concerns about spinach toxicity, @JPW1990? When I was researching smoothies (a little while back), all research showed to switch up your greens each week so as not to build up to toxic levels on certain things. Spinach was one of the worst offenders. I don't remember which vitamin/mineral it was, just that having spinach every day isn't considered to be healthy...0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »No concerns about spinach toxicity, @JPW1990? When I was researching smoothies (a little while back), all research showed to switch up your greens each week so as not to build up to toxic levels on certain things. Spinach was one of the worst offenders. I don't remember which vitamin/mineral it was, just that having spinach every day isn't considered to be healthy...
Uh-oh. I have a bit of spinach every morning in my eggs. That's not good??0 -
@Mami1976D I don't think "a bit" in your eggs each morning is a problem. This was for people doing smoothies and such using "handfuls" every day. Also, I don't know how much of an issue it is on this WOE. And if you have any other greens you like, kale, mixed greens, collard greens, etc. that you can alternate every other day with if you wanted to mix it up, you might try that... Our whole way of absorbing and using vitamins and minerals has changed eating this way, so I honestly don't even know if it is an issue.
P.S. I've heard that shredded cabbage in eggs looks like hell and tastes like golden bowls of awesomeness, if you are adventurous.0 -
Just joined this group yesterday through a posted link on a post that went argumentatively array lol... (LC vs CiCO)
How low is considered Keto? I believe I am considered LC since I have Fat 30%, Protein 45% and Carbs 25%0 -
The 'green leaf issue' is that plants have the urge to remain alive so the leaves apparently have a tiny, tiny amount of toxins in them. This is called alkaloid buildup. This is to ensure that animals don't come along and eat, and thereby kill, the entire plant. So it's recommended that we change what kind of green leaf we are eating from time to time. So if you're loving spinach for a couple of weeks then change it for a while to cos (romaine) lettuce for a while, then kale... I believe that you don't need a huge break before you can come back again to the one you prefer.
There are good details here saying that it actually isn't an issue unless you get some symptoms simplegreensmoothies.com/rotate-your-greens0 -
Keto is considered 5% or less for carbs, 75% - 80% fat and the rest protein. I follow 5/75/200
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Just joined this group yesterday through a posted link on a post that went argumentatively array lol... (LC vs CiCO)
How low is considered Keto? I believe I am considered LC since I have Fat 30%, Protein 45% and Carbs 25%
Welcome! I shoot for around 20% carbs. No ketosis, but currently feeling great. May try lower in a couple months after seeing my next lipid panel.
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@jazzine1 Welcome. I think you've arrived 'home' safely now
My understanding of keto is below 25g carbs per day. I aim for 15g or below and I measure total carbs, not net.0 -
GrannyMayOz wrote: »@jazzine1 Welcome. I think you've arrived 'home' safely now
Thank you!!! I have an awesome feeling I have
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My dietitian practically scolded me to up my carbs when I had them lower than 25% saying I needed at least 75g a day for brain function.
I'm not sure how true is this. I really would rather have them lower than 25% maybe around 15-20%. I lost a lot of weight when in my 20s following Atkins so I know it works. 0 -
I see a lot of high-functioning brains in this group. 0
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@Jazzine1 I am not 100% sure about that - maybe if your fat isn't high enough.
I am sure others will chime in, but the idea of a keto diet is for your body to stop burning carbs for energy-- and brain functions -- and start burning fat.
My brain seems to work better on fat. 0 -
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This is interesting. You'll be dumber for a few days:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rosspomeroy/2013/11/12/do-low-carbohydrate-diets-make-you-dumber/0 -
My dietitian practically scolded me to up my carbs when I had them lower than 25% saying I needed at least 75g a day for brain function. I'm not sure how true is this. I really would rather have them lower than 25% maybe around 15-20%. I lost a lot of weight when in my 20s following Atkins so I know it works.
I could go on all day about dietitians and nutritionists but I'll just say that mine wanted me on a lower (but no where near "low" for around here) carb, low fat, 1500 calories a day diet. I tried for a long time to follow it and failed miserably. I've upped the fat and seriously lowered the carbs and I feel amazing. I can't tell with the scale yet but other areas have improved in leaps and bounds. They mean well, I truly think so, but they all give the same line we've all been given all our lives. A lot of people go much lower than 75 g a day and function fine. I, personally, have not gotten it quite that low but I plan to get it lower.0 -
My dietitian practically scolded me to up my carbs when I had them lower than 25% saying I needed at least 75g a day for brain function. I'm not sure how true is this. I really would rather have them lower than 25% maybe around 15-20%. I lost a lot of weight when in my 20s following Atkins so I know it works.
Ugh, I hate this myth, in part because it's half-true (half-truths are the worst kind).
It is true that the brain uses about 75-100g of glucose (or glucose-equivalent) to function.
However, that need not be a) 100% glucose, nor b) entirely from diet. In fact, there's evidence that the brain works better on a mix of glucose and ketones.
How does that work? Well, for starters, the brain can run on ketones, so when you're in ketosis, the brain can get part of its fuel from the ketones. The exact amount is not entirely known, but IIRC, the estimates are around 50-75% of its glucose needs (reducing the brain's actual glucose need to 25-50g).
What about the rest of the glucose the brain needs? This can come from a few different places. First and foremost, if you're eating any amount of carbs above 0, then the brain gets first dibs on those carbs when the body is in a ketogenic state (this is known as physiological insulin resistance, which just means that the muscles won't take in the sugar in the blood until the brain has its fill; it's really basically just the sugar version of fat and protein utilization -- if something needs to use it, then it won't go into storage). If that's still not enough, then the body will make glucose out of other substrates (usually proteins) in a process called gluconeogenesis (pretty literally "new glucose creation"). (Side note - you don't have to eat the low levels of carbs recommended to stay in ketosis in order to make and use ketones; the body will make and burn some any time you fast or eat a fat-heavy meal, it's not at high enough levels to be considered a "ketogenic diet." Any diet that promotes fat adaption and using fat as a primary fuel source will produce some level of ketones.)
Oh, also, ketosis is not a dangerous state to be in, which your dietitian may also try to tell you. Many people get ketosis confused with ketoacidosis. The similarity stops at the fact that the body makes ketones in both situations. Ketoacidosis is the dysfunctional state where there's not enough insulin in the body, so the body doesn't shuttle glucose out of the blood (and may even continue to make more), and make ketone bodies. This only happens in people with nearly non-existent insulin production (ie - Type 1 Diabetics and late-stage Type 2 Diabetics), and isn't caused by eating low carb (even in those at risk for ketoacidosis, necessarily). In people with a functioning pancreas, blood sugar and ketone bodies are generally inversely proportional to each other -- when ketones are high, sugar is low, and vice versa. Also, "high" in a functional ketogenic state is still a fraction of the numbers seen in a dysfunctional ketoacidosis state. In nutritional ketosis, you're looking at maybe 3mmol/L (usually 1-2), while in ketoacidosis, you're talking 15 or more (in addition to a glucose reading of hundreds).0
This discussion has been closed.