Help with calories
FaylinaMeir
Posts: 661 Member
This is going to sound probably pretty dumb but here goes anyways:
I tried paleo for about 10 days a year or so ago. I broke my veganism for it basically and could not stomach eating that much meat. By the end of it just the thought of eating meat would make me gag and I couldn't keep eating. I don't know if it was because of being a vegan for so long or what. As such, I ended up not being able to eat enough calories. I was struggling to get 1400 calories a day and would eating a lot of almond meal pancakes and stuff just to get calories in. Who would have thought I'd have that issue HAHA!
Well skip to now, we're considering trying it again. I kinda enjoy meat more now but I still have the issue of if I eat lots of protein or fat I just can't get in the calories and I'd have to go for something like rice, potatoes, or bread to get in calories.
Does anyone else have an issue like this or any advice for me? my BMR is around 2200 (?) I'm 5'7 and 220lbs. I also question if my husband will get enough calories also because he can't eat as much when it's real fatty/protein rich foods. Is this something I should really worry about? Does primal follow the calorie=calorie theory, half of google agrees/disagrees.
If you check my diary, no I haven't started primal yet so you don't have to throw that at me
( I could make excuses but frankly I can't afford to throw away all the food I have in the house so It'll be a slow transition)
I tried paleo for about 10 days a year or so ago. I broke my veganism for it basically and could not stomach eating that much meat. By the end of it just the thought of eating meat would make me gag and I couldn't keep eating. I don't know if it was because of being a vegan for so long or what. As such, I ended up not being able to eat enough calories. I was struggling to get 1400 calories a day and would eating a lot of almond meal pancakes and stuff just to get calories in. Who would have thought I'd have that issue HAHA!
Well skip to now, we're considering trying it again. I kinda enjoy meat more now but I still have the issue of if I eat lots of protein or fat I just can't get in the calories and I'd have to go for something like rice, potatoes, or bread to get in calories.
Does anyone else have an issue like this or any advice for me? my BMR is around 2200 (?) I'm 5'7 and 220lbs. I also question if my husband will get enough calories also because he can't eat as much when it's real fatty/protein rich foods. Is this something I should really worry about? Does primal follow the calorie=calorie theory, half of google agrees/disagrees.
If you check my diary, no I haven't started primal yet so you don't have to throw that at me
( I could make excuses but frankly I can't afford to throw away all the food I have in the house so It'll be a slow transition)
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Replies
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I certainly don't have any issues eating meat
but if a lot of meat doesn't work for you then it doesn't work.don't force it
There are a lot of ways you can up your calories without upping your meat in take and as for protein..don't worry about protein intake being very high unless you want to start building some serious muscle/strength..if your eating:
nuts,eggs,seeds,beans,legumes etc you will be fine.just eat whatever meat you can handle/whatever amount of meat you enjoy and create dishes from the above foods and im sure you will be ok.best of luck to you0 -
Ironically, Paleo doesn't have to be that meat heavy, despite what a lot of people think. I know of a few people who joke that they eat more veggies now than when they were veg*n.
A couple of eggs, or a small serving of meat (2-3oz) can be sufficient for your meals, and you can get more calories in from sweet potatoes, avocado, squash, nuts, and maybe cheese (if you choose to include dairy). You can toss most of that in a salad, if you want, then add some dressing to add some more calories in, and you should be good to go.
Your body probably isn't used to eating much in the way of protein or fat and is probably used to a diet that's far heavier in carbs, so the transition to something more balanced or fat/protein leaning may take some time. Don't worry about it too much and do what works for you.0 -
This^^^ Good advice : )0
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Dragonwolf hit the nail right on the head. The only thing I could add would be to cook with and eat more good saturated fats like grass fed butter and coconut oil. Just eat a spoonful of coconut oil with a meal if you need to. It will help up your fat intake, feel more satiated and eat less carbs.0
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Re: vegetarian.
Here is something I posted for someone else awhile back. It might help in your case too.
Please, please read this: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-eat-meat-transitioning-away-from-vegetarianism/#axzz3RMDXjugK
Go slow.
Also, when possible within your budget, source all your animals. Find farms with high standards that raise their animals with the highest care. For example, we purchase a side of beef annually from a small farmer. He handles around 25-40 cattle a year for sale. His land has ample space for the heard and a fresh water stream that's part of a fresh water tributary. Ample grass to graze and he trains the cattle to how to go to an area and into the a mock up of where the slaughter will happen. He has an USDA/FDA approved travel slaughter truck that will come on the days of slaughter for one head. The animals goes happily, gets its usual treat of alfalfa in the truck and that's it. None of the other animals are around and have no clue. No stress, the farmer is with the animal from birth to end. I've been there for all of this and was quite taken by how calm the animal and everyone involved were, but our household takes an unusual amount of involvement in our food sources. We visit farms for all the food stuffs we purchase (animal/vegetable) and make sure they are up to an acceptable standard. Think biodynamic farming.
We also have farms for our chickens, ducks, lamb, pork, etc. We also visit the set ups of people who make various fermented foods for us. Like I said, we're involved.
If you cannot afford to purchase whole animals, visit farmers markets. Get to know the purveyors, what their practices are like and what items you can get from them. I tend to be less concerned about the organic label than most, and I'm more concerned with what a farms practices are. Besides, organic means less today than it did years ago.
One final note, just to help. The various food animals entered a covenant with humans. The deal was we'll feed you and you'll allow us to procreate and pass along our genes to future generation without going extinct. Another part of the deal was, we'll do this but you'll take care of us. Sadly, during the last hundred years we've broken this last part of the deal badly with CAFO farming. But, you can avoid this part by finding farmers that follow the original deal. Better yet, find farms that go beyond this deal. They're out there.
Best of luck.0 -
Calorie-v-Calorie
Here is the issue that everyone is having. Calories of foods stuff are determined by placing said food in a bomb calorimeter and combusting it, then recording the temperature rise in a measured amount of water. A little math and then you have the calories (special note: food calories are actually kilo-calories).
The problem with this is, we are not bomb calorimeters. We do not burn everything we consume. In fact, much of the foods stuff is needed for little things like fats for cell membranes, amino acids for proteins and both for the production of many secondary metabolites. After those pesky things required for cellular life are taken care of, then the rest can go towards energy. Out of all the things you eat, it's the simple sugars (fructose, glucose, sucrose, galactose, etc.) that are the calorie equates a calorie. You need to create a glycogen deficit for this in order to store it, or you need to actively burn it off right away. If you do not, this forces you into de novo lipogenesis and the conversion of said sugar into fat for storage.
Things then get a bit complicated. If your glycogen stores are met, then excess amino acids will be converted to sugars and then fat if you're not active enough to burn this off in real time. At that fat you're eating, if you're not burning off the excess you're storing it. Also, anytime you're converting sugars to fat for storage you are not burning fat sources at all. You see, excess sugar is toxic and your body will shut down all other avenues while it tries to et rid of it.
So, the paleo community does not follow CICO, but--and there is always a but-- You can still force yourself into a store fat all the time state by overeating. This is where people in the know will say, whoa, calories still matter... To a point.
tldr; protein and fat equal a fraction of a calorie up until cellular function and protein synthesis requirements are met and then the rest equals calories on your stomach and behind. Once glycogen requirements are met all those carbs go right to the rear and stomach.0 -
Terrific advice from Dragonwolf and Punchgut. Quality of meat is of utmost important. Amazingly, one can be Paleo on a budget. I keep track of all my spending. Since going Paleo I spend LESS on groceries than before (I was bingeing on junk, constant hunger/cravings, diabetic, morbidly obese, etc). Some of my items cost more, but overall I spend less because my body is getting the micro nutrients it needs from the high quality food I eat. (I could be even more frugal than I am and save more if I chose... that day is coming. lol)
I would suggest that choosing to eat the rest of the food that may be making you sick isn't really a savings after all. The sooner you start the healing, the better imo.
If you avoid the Paleo substitutes (almond flour etc) and eat cheaper cuts, including organs (eating nose to tail is very important) from grass fed, local animals and buy what's in season you will be amazed at the difference and savings. Being sick is pretty expensive.0 -
I began Paleo/primal in December after being vegan for over 9 years and low fat for 2 years. It took me until last week to be fully switched over. Now my macronutrients are about 50% fat 30% protein and 20% carbs. When I was vegan it was more like 10% fat, 10% protein and 80% carbs so I didn't want to shock my system and the thought of animal protein was gross to me at first. I decided to go from vegan to Paleo as I was have joint and tendon issues and injuries that wouldn't heal as well as non stp cravings that I was always fighting. It has taken 3 1/2 months but almost all joint pain is gone and craving are under control as long as I follow Paleo and the 50/30/20 macronutrient ratio.
I started transitioning by just adding a half a can of tuna to my lunch salad the first day. Then on the third day I did it again. On the 4th day I had chicken on my salad instead of tuna. I added avocado and nut butter as my fat at first because I had been brainwashed for so long that oil is bad so it took me a month or so before I listened to enough YouTube videos and read enough books and went to lectures to convince me fats and oils were actually good. It takes time to change something that has become so ingrained in your beliefs.
Now that I have this way of eating down I am focusing on losing those last 20lbs that I have been yo yoing with over these 9 years of being vegan. Hardest thing has been limiting my fruit as I have always been a sugar attack and had convinced myself was healthy. I was even a raw foodist for awhile and did a fruit based diet and lots of green smoothies. So switching over from burning glucose for energy to burning fat has taken awhile but I think I am just now there as I feel a calmness about my that wasn't there before. Also I am just now able to go more then a couple of hours without eating. When I was vegan I was always hungry. Now I can go up to 6 hours between meals before I really feel hungry.
You can do it but don't do it overnight. Listen to your body and go slow. It's a journey not an overnight fix.0 -
tshirtartist wrote: »I added avocado and nut butter as my fat at first because I had been brainwashed for so long that oil is bad so it took me a month or so before I listened to enough YouTube videos and read enough books and went to lectures to convince me fats and oils were actually good.
Vegetable and seed oils are bad.
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Yes I agree! Don't eat vegetable or seed oils. Stick with coconut oil mostly and sometimes use olive oil on salads, avocado oil to make mayo and occasionally grass fed butter to cook my fish. Also now I try to avoid nut butter as I tend to overeat it.0
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wow guys thanks! Very good advice.
The link for that mda article I'd already read, but I reread is just because.
@tshirtartist - you kinda sound like me. I slowly changed over 5 or so years from dabbling in vegetarianism, to vegan-ism, to raw foods, back to vegan, then went the mcdougall 80-10-10 way of super low fat and protein. As hard as it is to admit to being brainwashed I STILL sometimes have a fear of eating certain foods, although my brief 10 days of paleo a year ago got rid of the fat fears. It's weird to see how I've gone from being that *kitten* on YouTube videos harassing people to frying eggs with lard in the morning.
As for the eating old food, I know it's not ideal but I can only spend 200-250 a month for two people because of our extremely low income. I know most people would say oh well give up your cell phone or cable or whatever, but I don't have those luxuries. I'm okay though, I always think "it could be worse". I could be homeless, so there is that. (gotta stay positive) Most of what I have left over are things like rice and some beans which my husband will eat up. Even if I decided not to touch those things again (which I really don't eat much except rice and potatoes) he'd choose to eat them.
I also love the comment on buying from a farmer. We recently got a deep freezer (7cu sq ft) and we have probably a months worth of meat in it right now. If possible I never buy cafo because honestly it just doesn't taste good. We're trying to get someone to go in on a half cow with us and a half pig, all grass fed organic type meat. I live in Nebraska and we have one of the best co ops so I'm lucky in that regard. If you do the math it would be cheaper if you had to buy 2 freezer than it would be to buy from like whole foods. I can get that half cow for $4.46/lb after all is said and done and it's grass-fed from start to finish. I also agree nose to tail eating is important, we already do that. I figure why the heck not, it's wasteful. My husband thinks I'm the food nazi because I'm like. AMG don't those those scraps or bones away, I can make broth HAHA >.< totally guilty, but it's okay.
@punchgut - ty for explaining that calorie in vs out thing. You know i'd never really thought of it like that. I'd read an article from mark sisson about how we don't really use all the food we eat and I watched a documentary with my husband (the whole reason he's wanting to try this again) that said we only use like 30% of our food calories when it comes in the form of grains or something and that it blocks nutrients. Which would explain why I became anemic. In addition to the wonderful b12 deficiency I got from a vegan diet! >:-(
phew! I think I replied to everyone. I honestly thought I'd get like 1-2 responses. You're probably the most helpful group I've found on mfp!
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Yes faylina definitely went down the same path as you. Was following Esselstyn which is still super low fat like mcdougall but at least lighter on the grains. After watching forks over knives, I saw him speak and since he is a cardiologist he scared the *kitten* out of me that fat of any kind caused heart disease. I Took quite awhile to change my viewpoint but I finally have. Vegan doctors like Esselstyn, mcdougall and Fuhrman can be very convincing! I now realize studies can be manipulated and even know they mean well because they truly believe what they preach, at some point you have to go by how you feel and what works for you.0
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tshirtartist wrote: »Yes faylina definitely went down the same path as you. Was following Esselstyn which is still super low fat like mcdougall but at least lighter on the grains. After watching forks over knives, I saw him speak and since he is a cardiologist he scared the *kitten* out of me that fat of any kind caused heart disease. I Took quite awhile to change my viewpoint but I finally have. Vegan doctors like Esselstyn, mcdougall and Fuhrman can be very convincing! I now realize studies can be manipulated and even know they mean well because they truly believe what they preach, at some point you have to go by how you feel and what works for you.
Let me just say that I'd like to burn every copy of Forks Over Knives in existence.
Also, I cheered when I found a discussion between Fuhrman and Chris Masterjohn, and Masterjohn was not only being infinitely nicer/more professional, but was basically *kitten*-slapping Fuhrman at every turn in the process. On Fuhrman's own website, too.0 -
I will have to look for that discussion!0
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Ohh if you find that give me a link, I'd like to read that.
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Dragonwolf wrote: »tshirtartist wrote: »Yes faylina definitely went down the same path as you. Was following Esselstyn which is still super low fat like mcdougall but at least lighter on the grains. After watching forks over knives, I saw him speak and since he is a cardiologist he scared the *kitten* out of me that fat of any kind caused heart disease. I Took quite awhile to change my viewpoint but I finally have. Vegan doctors like Esselstyn, mcdougall and Fuhrman can be very convincing! I now realize studies can be manipulated and even know they mean well because they truly believe what they preach, at some point you have to go by how you feel and what works for you.
Let me just say that I'd like to burn every copy of Forks Over Knives in existence.
Also, I cheered when I found a discussion between Fuhrman and Chris Masterjohn, and Masterjohn was not only being infinitely nicer/more professional, but was basically *kitten*-slapping Fuhrman at every turn in the process. On Fuhrman's own website, too.
It's easier to be nice and professional when the science is on your side. Why be rude? It does no good. Sadly, in America it seems that people believe the loudest/rudest. Hopefully a swing towards knowledge and evidence will happen, but I'm not expecting it in my lifetime.0 -
tshirtartist wrote: »Also now I try to avoid nut butter as I tend to overeat it.
I think I could seriously eat an entire jar of almond butter or cashew butter in one sitting. It is so good!!
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FaylinaMeir wrote: »Ohh if you find that give me a link, I'd like to read that.
Found it! http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-are-the-inuit-healthy.html
Seems Fuhrman deleted Chris' responses in the Dietary Advice and Electrical Engineers post that Chris references, too.Dragonwolf wrote: »tshirtartist wrote: »Yes faylina definitely went down the same path as you. Was following Esselstyn which is still super low fat like mcdougall but at least lighter on the grains. After watching forks over knives, I saw him speak and since he is a cardiologist he scared the *kitten* out of me that fat of any kind caused heart disease. I Took quite awhile to change my viewpoint but I finally have. Vegan doctors like Esselstyn, mcdougall and Fuhrman can be very convincing! I now realize studies can be manipulated and even know they mean well because they truly believe what they preach, at some point you have to go by how you feel and what works for you.
Let me just say that I'd like to burn every copy of Forks Over Knives in existence.
Also, I cheered when I found a discussion between Fuhrman and Chris Masterjohn, and Masterjohn was not only being infinitely nicer/more professional, but was basically *kitten*-slapping Fuhrman at every turn in the process. On Fuhrman's own website, too.
It's easier to be nice and professional when the science is on your side. Why be rude? It does no good. Sadly, in America it seems that people believe the loudest/rudest. Hopefully a swing towards knowledge and evidence will happen, but I'm not expecting it in my lifetime.
I've determined that Fuhrman is an *kitten*. His posts in his "Debunking Myths - Low Carb/High Protein Diets" (the section name alone says it all, really) pretty much prove that.0 -
Holy crap, I started trying to read that. He is comparing TODAY's health problems with Inuit as proof that an animal based diet is unhealthy. Or saying that we can't know if they were healthy or not. Inuit survived for GENERATIONS in the harshest climate possible for humans to exist in. If there was anything substandard about their diet that would have been impossible. The only thing that was wrong with their food is that it wasn't always available when needed. Without a high fat diet (NOT high protein) living here was impossible. Few carbs were ever available. Some Inuit lived to a good old age, but many others died early due to starvation and ACCIDENTS. Of course, infant mortality was also very high. Hunting large animals and living on the land is very dangerous. When people dismiss the Inuit as some kind of weird exception (that probably weren't healthy even though the EVIDENCE proves the opposite- except for they breathed lots of smoke from burning oil in small spaces for much of the year), as if they aren't quite human, I see RED RED RED. OMG
I love how Chris stays so calm and shares very relevant, and true, information and the response is "this comment is utterly ridiculous"... Fuhrman is so ridiculous that it's very hard for me to even consider his view with any fairness. He doesn't make any logical sense to me; he's too married to his agenda.
Here's just one doozy quote from Fuhrman: "This comment is utterly ridiculous. There is no such thing as long-lived Eskimos. We don't want to emulate the diet of short-lived populations." This guy is an ignorant (on history, anthropology, biology, et al), racist, piece of crap. And yes, I will stoop to name-calling when someone like him has influence on so many others who are sick and desperately seeking help. People like this are contributing to keeping people sick and helping to prevent them from finding optimal health. I have ZERO compassion for people who hurt people.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Seems Fuhrman deleted Chris' responses in the Dietary Advice and Electrical Engineers post that Chris references, too.
You mean this comment thread?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080501213545/http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-electronic-engineers-and-dietary-advice.html
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omg that's hillarious! It's like watching an educated "smart" person who has done real research not on wikipedia trying to argue with the common internet troll going "BUT BUT I'M RIGHT" oh thanks, I needed a laugh this morning! :laugh:0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Seems Fuhrman deleted Chris' responses in the Dietary Advice and Electrical Engineers post that Chris references, too.
You mean this comment thread?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080501213545/http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-electronic-engineers-and-dietary-advice.html
Thank you, my Google-fu was failing me earlier. And wow, it seems he deleted a lot of responses for that one.
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »Seems Fuhrman deleted Chris' responses in the Dietary Advice and Electrical Engineers post that Chris references, too.
You mean this comment thread?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080501213545/http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-electronic-engineers-and-dietary-advice.html
Thank you, my Google-fu was failing me earlier. And wow, it seems he deleted a lot of responses for that one.
I'm always entertained by these old people that think they can just delete things from the internet and it will be gone.
This is always my reaction:
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »Seems Fuhrman deleted Chris' responses in the Dietary Advice and Electrical Engineers post that Chris references, too.
You mean this comment thread?
http://web.archive.org/web/20080501213545/http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-electronic-engineers-and-dietary-advice.html
Thank you, my Google-fu was failing me earlier. And wow, it seems he deleted a lot of responses for that one.
I'm always entertained by these old people that think they can just delete things from the internet and it will be gone.
This is always my reaction:
Haha, yes, indeed!
I found a spectacular gem from Masterjohn's post that I just had to share (emphasis mine):In fact I suspect that any success with low-fat diets such as you and Esselstyn and Ornish advocate comes from the reduction of polyunsaturated fat rather than saturated fat. Since the fat content is so low, lipids will be manufactured from carbohydrates or other substrates via the enzyme fatty acid synthase. The end product of this pathway is palmitate, a saturated fatty acid. The body cannot introduce double bonds between the omega-end and the omega-9 position, so only saturated and monounsaturated fats will be produced.
Is it bad that I just about cheered as I read this? This is exactly what always baffled me about the "(saturated) fat is bad!" crowd. Regardless of diet, about half of our fat stores are saturated (palmitate, of all types, which is supposedly one of the "worst" of the saturated fatty acids, according to these folks). What the hell do they think our bodies burn when losing weight?!0 -
Oooh...and this is an important thing to note for this group (emphasis his):As it turns out, the number one most saturated fat on the world market -- coconut oil -- actaully lowers total and LDL cholesterol, raises HDL cholesterol, and powerfully prevents the oxidation of LDL *** IF AND ONLY IF *** it is virgin coconut oil. Apparently, the active constituents of the oil are polyphenols.
This is good to know -- the polyphenols are what help cholesterol, not the fatty acids, and the polyphenols are what get destroyed in the refining process.0 -
I've had this conversation a few times:
Person: fats are bad, don't you know dummy.
Me: If fats are bad, why does your body store all back up energy as fat?
Person: It's doing that do remove fat from the blood because it's bad.
Me: Then why does your body convert all excess carbohydrates to fat and store that fat?
Person: Ummm.
Me: In fact, carbohydrates are so bad that your system has to remove them from the blood serum as fast as possible, and if your glycogen stores aren't able to use it your body has to rid itself of the carbohydrate. To do this, your body converts it to fat and stores it for future use. The body has a whole system to ensure low blood glucose levels, insulin, but no such complementary system for blood fat levels.
Person: Ummm.
Me: Biologically speaking, our bodies can only use so much protein and carbohydrate with the excess converted to fat for future use. So why would our bodies ever store it's future energy source in a form that is bad for it, and have no system to ensure minimal amounts or set levels throughout.
Person: FU
Internal monologue: Just lost that one at FU.
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I've had this conversation a few times:
Person: fats are bad, don't you know dummy.
Me: If fats are bad, why does your body store all back up energy as fat?
Person: It's doing that do remove fat from the blood because it's bad.
Me: Then why does your body convert all excess carbohydrates to fat and store that fat?
Person: Ummm.
Me: In fact, carbohydrates are so bad that your system has to remove them from the blood serum as fast as possible, and if your glycogen stores aren't able to use it your body has to rid itself of the carbohydrate. To do this, your body converts it to fat and stores it for future use. The body has a whole system to ensure low blood glucose levels, insulin, but no such complementary system for blood fat levels.
Person: Ummm.
Me: Biologically speaking, our bodies can only use so much protein and carbohydrate with the excess converted to fat for future use. So why would our bodies ever store it's future energy source in a form that is bad for it, and have no system to ensure minimal amounts or set levels throughout.
Person: FU
Internal monologue: Just lost that one at FU.
This is amazing.
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Just checked back on this thread and am so loving all the great info about fat...sometimes I want to shake people! It's always extra frustrating when I have to explain why I limit fruit (the key word is LIMIT not don't touch) but eat copious amounts of quality saturated fat...I think I'm just going to start linking people to the Real Food Liz site...0
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That used to be an issue for me until I realized that when I logged my food, I wasn't logging my cooking oils like coconut, olive, or macadamia nut oil. I have found that when I am running low on calories, I can make up a quick drink of full-fat coconut milk, 2 tbsp golden flaxseed meal, 2 tbsp hemp seed, and 1 cup of berries plus cinnamon or whatever. That usually does the trick! If I don't feel like going to the trouble, I'll just eat a couple big spoonfuls of almond butter and grapes or a banana.
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"I tried paleo for about 10 days a year or so ago. I broke my veganism for it basically and could not stomach eating that much meat. By the end of it just the thought of eating meat would make me gag and I couldn't keep eating. I don't know if it was because of being a vegan for so long or what. As such, I ended up not being able to eat enough calories. I was struggling to get 1400 calories a day and would eating a lot of almond meal pancakes and stuff just to get calories in. Who would have thought I'd have that issue HAHA! "
There is a new app called mypaleopal, instead of counting your calories your simply taking pics of your foods for the day. I'm still new to it so not ready to completely switch over, but it's still a good way to track and be accountable.
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This discussion has been closed.