race fuel
Options
Replies
-
Well, I take part of that back. Very few absolutes in the world I guess...maybe the mental boost improves performance in placebo way. And if it's hot / humid sports drink can help both physically and mentally.0
-
grimmeanor wrote: »OK. I get the concept then of training your body to store more glycogen by not refueling as often (or at all) on long runs. I just have never really seen any guidance on how best to do that. I guess from all I have read it seemed like it was something that might start happening as you run more. Now though, I'm not so sure.
I have never heard of this and I have been doing long distance races (Ironman) for years. This goes against everything I have read and experienced myself.0 -
Pfitzinger and Matt Fitzgerald discuss this a lot in their books. You can also look into "train low, race high" for more information on increasing energy efficiency in the body during training / glycogen storage and fat utilization. Greg mcmillan (from the mcmillan calculator fame lol) coached me last season and he recommended 5 of my 10 long long runs and all medium longs be done in a fasted type state to increase my body's ability to burn fat and force more energy storage. When I get home I can post the articles he provided on this, but I think they are on his website, too.0
-
I am curious to see this, as it doesn't make sense to me. I want to know what the actual mechanism is that causes this fat-adaptation. But then again I am coming from a background of Ironman training and a "long training day" for me can easily be 6+ hours.
I will say that the only time I ever "fuel" during training is on my long rides or long runs. Everything else I do is under 90 minutes at a time. Even on double workout days where I'll have two one-hour workouts I always separate those with an 8-hour workday and obviously eating during that time.0 -
Like I said earlier though, I have never looked into this as it relates to ultras/ironmans/etc. Fitzgerald does address triathlons in his books though. I would assume you would still benefit from this type of training and it seems like you are already doing it---not taking in energy all the time. My longest runs without gels/sports drink last training cycle were 18 miles.0
-
Ahh perhaps I already do kinda do this in a sense. I don't really subscribe to the "LETS ALL EAT KALE!" thing that many newer triathletes get into. I have been around long enough to know that I just need calories. A lot of them. I eat bacon almost every day
But I also don't restrict carbs, or really even think about my macro balance. I just eat food.
As for long training without fuel - I'll go up to 14 miles without anything, but past that usually only 1 or 2 gels.0 -
I'm looking forward to any info too. I have tried searching for some info, and found a couple things on Runner's Connect. Both of those are similar to that advice you received about splitting your long runs so half are done in a fasted state, and the others in a fueled state.
http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/cience-of-bonking-and-glycogen-depletion/
http://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/marathon-long-runs-on-an-empty-stomach-or-fully-fueled/
I'm not going to start that now though...heck, I'm in a taper. But after that...well....I'll have two weeks of training then another taper. So...AFTER THAT FOR SURE!!!
0 -
Carrieendar wrote: ». Greg mcmillan (from the mcmillan calculator fame lol) coached me last season and he recommended 5 of my 10 long long runs and all medium longs be done in a fasted type state to increase my body's ability to burn fat and force more energy storage.
We are in agreement on taking on fuel during training runs but I continue to disagree with you IRT fueling during a half marathon.
0 -
DavidMartinez2 wrote: »Carrieendar wrote: ». Greg mcmillan (from the mcmillan calculator fame lol) coached me last season and he recommended 5 of my 10 long long runs and all medium longs be done in a fasted type state to increase my body's ability to burn fat and force more energy storage.
We are in agreement on taking on fuel during training runs but I continue to disagree with you IRT fueling during a half marathon.
Under any normal circumstance I would bring a gel with me for any half marathon and take it around mile 6-7 regardless of whether or not I felt like I needed it.
However at my last half, I made a small error and left my gels in the car and didn't realize until the gun went off. Despite the lack of fuel, despite having completely destroyed legs from two FULL days of training (70 bike miles, 15 run miles and a bunch of pool time) right before, I still ran a strong negative split for a 1:35 PR (7:36/mi for the first half, 7:06 for the second half and I closed the last 5k in 20:32).
(This half was part of a triathlon training camp, so it was considered a "C-race")
0 -
Is it that you don't believe the body stores enough for 90-120 or that the stuff you ingest is somehow utilized better than the stuff already there?0
-
This is a figure from one of my physiology textbooks. It plots the plasma concentration of glucose and glucagon over time during endurance exercise lasting 240 minutes. As you can see, the body easily handles the exercise up until about the 90 -120 min mark here before glucagon levels increase rapidly .0 -
ugh, sorry about the size. not sure how to fix that...
It is adapted from a Feling and Wahren study that took blood samples from runners as well as muscle biopsies over a period of training and racing.0 -
I'd never even heard of gels till I started training for a full marathon, so have never used them during a half. I tend to agree with Carrie on the (lack of) need, but would add that I can open and consume a gel no problem at marathon pace, but half marathon pace feels a lot faster and I think it would disrupt my stride. I certainly couldn't imagine eating anything at 10k pace or faster either! I don't drink water in short races (half marathon or less) either unless it is very hot. Which it usually isn't because I live in Scotland.0
-
Carrieendar wrote: »This is a figure from one of my physiology textbooks. It plots the plasma concentration of glucose and glucagon over time during endurance exercise lasting 240 minutes. As you can see, the body easily handles the exercise up until about the 90 -120 min mark here before glucagon levels increase rapidly .
I'm assuming this study was done with well trained athletes? For recreational runners, does this still hold or do they tend to run out of fuel earlier?0 -
I can pull it up and see. But iirc they were running 240 minutes- so they had to be trained I would think. They did a whole series of these , even with short durations. The text just used this one I think to make the point about that extreme changeover after the 2 hour mark.
Edit: no, I'm wrong. Most only ran 160-180 min and the lines where plotted out from there with only 2 data points at 240.0 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »Carrieendar wrote: »This is a figure from one of my physiology textbooks. It plots the plasma concentration of glucose and glucagon over time during endurance exercise lasting 240 minutes. As you can see, the body easily handles the exercise up until about the 90 -120 min mark here before glucagon levels increase rapidly .
I'm assuming this study was done with well trained athletes? For recreational runners, does this still hold or do they tend to run out of fuel earlier?
Again, I think the point is there is a built-in time limit to the glycogen stores and how efficiently you utilize the energy. Someone like me, who is going to run a half-marathon in two hours or so, is just not going to need it. Someone who runs the half-marathon in three hours, maybe or even probably needs some supplemental fuel. But it isn't such a simple relationship as time or training.
My HRM program gives an estimate of calories burned and what percentage comes from fat along with custom heart rate zones. As I have progressed, my lactic acid threshold heart rate has increased from 168 bpm to over 178 bpm. But the other thing that has occurred (in part because of the way I've trained with slower runs for greater volume) is that in each of the last three half marathons, I have gotten progressively faster, my average heart rate has gotten progressively slower and the estimated calories from fat as a percentage of total expenditure has increased. But its only an estimate. The fact that I tend to run moderately long distances (up to HM) fasted and without supplemental fuel is probably a help (according to Fitzgerald) and not a hinderance.
In each, I have taken a single gel about 15 minutes before the race start to "top of the tanks" so to speak. But my carb loading plan for the half marathon is really no different than the full. In the last race, which was half-marathon just a few weeks before the full, I added a gel about midway while running at my HM pace, more to see if there were any problems associated with taking in fuel at that high energy output rate. Other than staying completely in control of my running pace because I viewed that race as the last long "high-speed" training run, I can't say I felt any different from the races where I didn't take in anything except water during the race.
0 -
Honey stingers are amazing! I love the pomegranate passion fruit and orange flavor.0
-
Also I don't fuel much up to 13 miles. Maybe I fill my water bottle with some sports drink and I do carry something in case I need it but I focus of fueling myself really well before so I need minimal intake during the race. Longer than a half I will fuel though. It's taken years of racing for me to truly find what works for me and now it's just second nature.0
-
Carrieendar wrote: »
Edit: no, I'm wrong. Most only ran 160-180 min and the lines where plotted out from there with only 2 data points at 240.
I think I'm reasonably well-trained but if I had to run for 240 minutes I think I'd want a break for a sit-down and a nice cup of tea.
0 -
There is a significant difference between "running" and "racing". When I see elite's stop fueling during their half marathons I'll consider it.0
