General Q and A thread for May.
Replies
-
This is where the magic of MFP comes into play when used as a planning tool rather than simply a logging tool. Every time I go to the grocery store I know what my dinners are going to be for the next week, and can plug them into MFP in advance. This will tell me ahead of time what my lunch should look like... heavy on protein because dinner is light, easy on calories because dinner is large, etc. I can usually have figured out days ahead of time what my calories and protein outlooks are for any given day.
Of course, any given day can be subject to change, sometimes on the spot if my wife suddenly decides she wants to eat out, or one of the kids gets sick and this dinner was his/her favorite so we're going to postpone it for another day, etc. There are days when I don't meet my goals, but as long as those days are isolated and not a pattern I don't mind (much).0 -
So tonight after I had eaten supper and I was satiated and content, I found that I was under calories by a fair amount and had not met my protein goals for the day. I ate a Greek yogurt which put me pretty close, but it got me thinking about why did I eat this? I have been reading a little on homeostatic and hedonic eating. Growing up mostly obese in my lifetime, I have evidently given over more to hedonic eating and was wondering if by trying to change my "behavior" to that of homestatic eating, that it would help correct future eating patterns or at least, create more of a balance.
Thoughts?
https://youtu.be/GAW1WNHSKG40 -
This question really resonates with me, and I appreciate the vid reply Patrick. I agree with your thoughts on trying to become more in-tune with your own hunger cues and not rely too heavily on the numbers. This is particularly true for people who are typically 'all or nothing' thinkers, like myself.
This is yet another reason that 'clean eating' or 'bro spec' diet is so successful for many people. By removing the temptation of the calorie dense foods your reward becomes satiation, not gratification (flavour).
Of course I think there is a more reasonable compromise to be had, and that there is still a place for most foods. Personally, it has taken me years and I'm still working through how this best works for me long term.
Learning to balance nutrition with enjoyment; listening to your body vs the output of a spreadsheet; over analysing vs living - I'm sure these are things we've all struggled with at times0 -
This question really resonates with me, and I appreciate the vid reply Patrick. I agree with your thoughts on trying to become more in-tune with your own hunger cues and not rely too heavily on the numbers. This is particularly true for people who are typically 'all or nothing' thinkers, like myself.
This is yet another reason that 'clean eating' or 'bro spec' diet is so successful for many people. By removing the temptation of the calorie dense foods your reward becomes satiation, not gratification (flavour).
Of course I think there is a more reasonable compromise to be had, and that there is still a place for most foods. Personally, it has taken me years and I'm still working through how this best works for me long term.
Learning to balance nutrition with enjoyment; listening to your body vs the output of a spreadsheet; over analysing vs living - I'm sure these are things we've all struggled with at times
Yup, I agree with all of this.0 -
I'm wondering how many times per week I should be doing strength training and if something like dragon boat paddling or boxing training counts as strength training? I have lost over 25kg and still have around 35kg to go. I thought it was time I incorporated strength training. I used kettle bells for the first time and liked the idea that they help with functional strength. Am I understanding kettle bells correctly or are dumb bells just as good? Your help is much appreciated.0
-
HelenWater wrote: »I'm wondering how many times per week I should be doing strength training and if something like dragon boat paddling or boxing training counts as strength training? I have lost over 25kg and still have around 35kg to go. I thought it was time I incorporated strength training. I used kettle bells for the first time and liked the idea that they help with functional strength. Am I understanding kettle bells correctly or are dumb bells just as good? Your help is much appreciated.
A lot of this depends on your goals and your training experience.
What are your goals?0 -
I would like some help to make sure I covered the basics before I pursue seeing a doctor. My weight has yo-yo for about 4 yrs since a thyroid/lymph nodes infection. Follow-up showed no signs of long-term issues (#’s were good/biopsy was negative…no other signs). I totally take the blame for the yoyo, bottom line - lack of consistency. Since Jan when I hit 131, I’ve been trying to lose weight but finding it more difficult than previous years (using 1200 cals with 30 min of HIIT 6x). My scale weight has consistently increased from Jan 18 (131) to April 18 (137). April 20 up’d my deficit from 10% to 15% and began checking my weight on a weekly basis. April 24 (136), May 1 (135.5), May 8 (135.5), May 15 (135.5). It’s now been three consecutive weeks with no change. I’ve cleaned up intake as much as humanly possible…measuring and logging more consistently but other than the 1.5 lost, there has been no change.
Stats: Female, 52 yrs old, 1350 cals, 135g c/45g f/101g p
Goal: Small frame, carry weight/fat between waist and knees…so add muscle to upper body, lose lower body fat
Exercise: Started SL in March (last week a lot going on…death in family/other family related commitments so did quick cardio dvds when time allowed (3x), starting SL back tonight)
My first question is, I’m wondering if my TDEE is still too high, is there a way to determine my TDEE using my food diary, so as not to rely on the calculators? Or should I just drop to a 20% deficit? Is it possible that I have stubborn fat and not solely rely on a calorie deficit, should I consider adding cardio since it worked in the past?
I initially wanted to give the 15% deficit a chance until the end of May then pursue seeing a doctor. I don’t believe there’s been a thyroid flare up, but it’s difficult to know if it is premenopausal or thyroid related, since some of the symptoms are similar.
Hope this makes sense. Is there anything else I can do or try, any input would be greatly appreciated!0 -
so sorry, i'm losing it...didn't mean to include may 15, that's my next checkin. and wanted to mention that my measurements also increased. A total of 1 inch in the stomach (belly button) are, and one inch in thigh area (i've only been tracking my trouble areas)...thanks again. since health/fitness is not my forte, want to make sure i've covered all areas...0
-
so sorry, i'm losing it...didn't mean to include may 15, that's my next checkin. and wanted to mention that my measurements also increased. A total of 1 inch in the stomach (belly button) are, and one inch in thigh area (i've only been tracking my trouble areas)...thanks again. since health/fitness is not my forte, want to make sure i've covered all areas...
I'll try to reply to this today if possible. I did go over your information and I have some thoughts.0 -
My goals are to strengthen all of my body so that I don't get injured while increasing exercise. I walk most days, dragon boat 1-3 days per week, some cycling, some rowing, and some hiking. In recent years I've had plantar fasciitis which is now fairly well healed, and I have had greater trochanteric pain syndrome for six months which still feels a bit painful. I'm 48 and have been losing weight since January 2014. I would like to have a body that functions well, for example being able to carry and lift a row boat above my head. Both injuries have happened when I increased the intensity of exercise, and I want to ensure that I don't continue to injure myself every time I try to increase my exercise.0
-
@Sidesteel Follow-up question to your video of a few days ago. You talk about how life-long logging is probably not necessary/in the best interest of most once maintaining at goal and once you readjust to satiety cues. I agree with that. The corollary question is do you think long-term measuring for portion control is valuable whether you log it or not?0
-
@Sidesteel Follow-up question to your video of a few days ago. You talk about how life-long logging is probably not necessary/in the best interest of most once maintaining at goal and once you readjust to satiety cues. I agree with that. The corollary question is do you think long-term measuring for portion control is valuable whether you log it or not?
Initially I'd say no, but I'm saying that because hopefully you will have acquired the habits necessary to roughly maintain body-weight without needing to measure things.0 -
HelenWater wrote: »I'm wondering how many times per week I should be doing strength training and if something like dragon boat paddling or boxing training counts as strength training? I have lost over 25kg and still have around 35kg to go. I thought it was time I incorporated strength training. I used kettle bells for the first time and liked the idea that they help with functional strength. Am I understanding kettle bells correctly or are dumb bells just as good? Your help is much appreciated.
Regarding injury I would consider getting a physical therapist to take a look at your femur issue in case it's a contraindication to certain exercises.
Excluding that, if your goal is an overall improvement in strength then boxing and paddling probably won't cut it although paddling will get you better at paddling. You would probably benefit from doing some sort of resistance training program -- whether you use dumbbells or barbells or KB's really depends, you could design a good program with any of those tools.
0 -
Thanks.
0 -
Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?0
-
Have you ever watched the gymnastics at the Olympics? Those athletes get their bodies primarily from bodyweight exercises, and nobody can call them out of shape!
As for getting a personal trainer, if you're scared, a personal trainer can go a long way to making you feel comfortable, even if you only get a few sessions rather than an ongoing arrangement.0 -
abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?0 -
abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?
I'm having a hard time determining my goals, because I'm not sure which would get me the results I'm looking for. To be completely honest, I want a muscular body that will allow me to rock a bikini. If that means building muscle or losing weight, I'm all in.
I'm currently doing 15 mins cardio warmup, 1 min regular plank, 1 min side plank (each side), 30 crunches, 30 reverse crunches, 30 around the world (crunch with rotating the ball around thighs), 15 leg lifts, 15 kettle bell squats, 3x15 regular squats, 2x15 arm press with 10lb weights (palms facing, then thumbs facing)
These exercises have been manageable and so far I've been self motivated to do them on my own and at home. I only visited with the trainer once because it was included with my gym membership an these were the recommended exercises. I would need to sign up for sessions and pay if I wanted to meet with him regularly.
0 -
Has anyone heard of Promina Whey Isolate?0
-
How about protein powder made from crickets!
http://dailyburn.com/life/health/cricket-flour-protein-powder/
0 -
How about protein powder made from crickets!
http://dailyburn.com/life/health/cricket-flour-protein-powder/
You know on a bad day I ingest several gnats while I run. I have joked that they are protein. Perhaps this would a better insect protein0 -
Popped my hamstring in rugby. I'm focusing on upper body at gym but is there any leg exercise I can do?0
-
abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?
I'm having a hard time determining my goals, because I'm not sure which would get me the results I'm looking for. To be completely honest, I want a muscular body that will allow me to rock a bikini. If that means building muscle or losing weight, I'm all in.
I'm currently doing 15 mins cardio warmup, 1 min regular plank, 1 min side plank (each side), 30 crunches, 30 reverse crunches, 30 around the world (crunch with rotating the ball around thighs), 15 leg lifts, 15 kettle bell squats, 3x15 regular squats, 2x15 arm press with 10lb weights (palms facing, then thumbs facing)
These exercises have been manageable and so far I've been self motivated to do them on my own and at home. I only visited with the trainer once because it was included with my gym membership an these were the recommended exercises. I would need to sign up for sessions and pay if I wanted to meet with him regularly.
If you want to build/maintain muscle as well as lose fat, you will need a routine that incorporates progressive loading into it and has the appropriate amount of weight and volume. Calisthenics type workouts are ok at first, but will not get you very far as far as muscle goes after the initial impact of new stimulus goes away.
You can always combine - for example, do a 3 day a week full body routine, adding some 'sweaty stuff' at the end - as well as tack a session onto the end of your week. I would leave a rest day between that and your lifting though. So, for example, T, Th, Sat - lift. Sun, sweaty stuff.
How comfortable would you feel trying out lifts on your own (with video and instructional resources)?.0 -
How about protein powder made from crickets!
http://dailyburn.com/life/health/cricket-flour-protein-powder/
I bought some bee pollen powder once just to see.....gag....threw it away.
0 -
abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?
I'm having a hard time determining my goals, because I'm not sure which would get me the results I'm looking for. To be completely honest, I want a muscular body that will allow me to rock a bikini. If that means building muscle or losing weight, I'm all in.
I'm currently doing 15 mins cardio warmup, 1 min regular plank, 1 min side plank (each side), 30 crunches, 30 reverse crunches, 30 around the world (crunch with rotating the ball around thighs), 15 leg lifts, 15 kettle bell squats, 3x15 regular squats, 2x15 arm press with 10lb weights (palms facing, then thumbs facing)
These exercises have been manageable and so far I've been self motivated to do them on my own and at home. I only visited with the trainer once because it was included with my gym membership an these were the recommended exercises. I would need to sign up for sessions and pay if I wanted to meet with him regularly.
If you want to build/maintain muscle as well as lose fat, you will need a routine that incorporates progressive loading into it and has the appropriate amount of weight and volume. Calisthenics type workouts are ok at first, but will not get you very far as far as muscle goes after the initial impact of new stimulus goes away.
You can always combine - for example, do a 3 day a week full body routine, adding some 'sweaty stuff' at the end - as well as tack a session onto the end of your week. I would leave a rest day between that and your lifting though. So, for example, T, Th, Sat - lift. Sun, sweaty stuff.
How comfortable would you feel trying out lifts on your own (with video and instructional resources)?.
Thanks for the confirmation. I love your example of lifting T, Th, Sat. I will use this schedule. Now, if only I can find a routine.
Yes, if I had video and resources I would totally try it on my own. Do you have any reccomendations? I recently bought a cheap weight bench off craigslist. It's a basic bench with a 3lb bar and weights that total 100lbs. Hopefully that will get me going for a little while.
BTW- I really appreciate you following up and being so kind and patient with me. BIG THANK YOU for taking time to educate me and others.0 -
abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?
I'm having a hard time determining my goals, because I'm not sure which would get me the results I'm looking for. To be completely honest, I want a muscular body that will allow me to rock a bikini. If that means building muscle or losing weight, I'm all in.
I'm currently doing 15 mins cardio warmup, 1 min regular plank, 1 min side plank (each side), 30 crunches, 30 reverse crunches, 30 around the world (crunch with rotating the ball around thighs), 15 leg lifts, 15 kettle bell squats, 3x15 regular squats, 2x15 arm press with 10lb weights (palms facing, then thumbs facing)
These exercises have been manageable and so far I've been self motivated to do them on my own and at home. I only visited with the trainer once because it was included with my gym membership an these were the recommended exercises. I would need to sign up for sessions and pay if I wanted to meet with him regularly.
If you want to build/maintain muscle as well as lose fat, you will need a routine that incorporates progressive loading into it and has the appropriate amount of weight and volume. Calisthenics type workouts are ok at first, but will not get you very far as far as muscle goes after the initial impact of new stimulus goes away.
You can always combine - for example, do a 3 day a week full body routine, adding some 'sweaty stuff' at the end - as well as tack a session onto the end of your week. I would leave a rest day between that and your lifting though. So, for example, T, Th, Sat - lift. Sun, sweaty stuff.
How comfortable would you feel trying out lifts on your own (with video and instructional resources)?.
Thanks for the confirmation. I love your example of lifting T, Th, Sat. I will use this schedule. Now, if only I can find a routine.
Yes, if I had video and resources I would totally try it on my own. Do you have any reccomendations? I recently bought a cheap weight bench off craigslist. It's a basic bench with a 3lb bar and weights that total 100lbs. Hopefully that will get me going for a little while.
BTW- I really appreciate you following up and being so kind and patient with me. BIG THANK YOU for taking time to educate me and others.
You are very welcome.
Would you be comfortable going to the gym to do some of your training? It will be easier/safer with a power cage if you are going to do a routine with squats. Do you have someone at home that can spot you?0 -
abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »abigail659 wrote: »Hello There! I consider myself a newbie, although I've been on MFP for almost a year now. I've lost around 24lbs and haven't been completely satisfied with my results. (I’m 30 yrs old, 5’4, CW: 132, SW: 156.) My weight loss was mainly eating at a deficit and being slightly more active. I'm beginning to realize I may need to start lifting or building muscles. I joined a gym and met with a personal trainer and he showed me some exercises, but I'm not 100% sure they will get me where I want to be and they are not particularly what I would consider "lifting". They are more like calisthenics – various kettle ball squats, planks, pushups, leg lifts etc. I’ve been doing these recommended exercises 2-3 times per week (at home) along with a little cardio for the last month. I’m finding that I’m continuing to lose weight, which is good, because I do need to lose fat, but I’m wondering if doing a plan like this will get me anywhere or if I should drop this plan and go with strictly lifting? Also, for a total noob like me, is it recommended I get a personal trainer since weight lifting scares the daylights out of me?
What are your goals in order of preference? Lose weight, get stronger? Gain muscle?
Do you enjoy this type of exercising?
Is it something that would motivate you to do on your own?
Are you seeing the trainer regularly?
What exercise routines have you been doing and what others are you doing now?
I'm having a hard time determining my goals, because I'm not sure which would get me the results I'm looking for. To be completely honest, I want a muscular body that will allow me to rock a bikini. If that means building muscle or losing weight, I'm all in.
I'm currently doing 15 mins cardio warmup, 1 min regular plank, 1 min side plank (each side), 30 crunches, 30 reverse crunches, 30 around the world (crunch with rotating the ball around thighs), 15 leg lifts, 15 kettle bell squats, 3x15 regular squats, 2x15 arm press with 10lb weights (palms facing, then thumbs facing)
These exercises have been manageable and so far I've been self motivated to do them on my own and at home. I only visited with the trainer once because it was included with my gym membership an these were the recommended exercises. I would need to sign up for sessions and pay if I wanted to meet with him regularly.
If you want to build/maintain muscle as well as lose fat, you will need a routine that incorporates progressive loading into it and has the appropriate amount of weight and volume. Calisthenics type workouts are ok at first, but will not get you very far as far as muscle goes after the initial impact of new stimulus goes away.
You can always combine - for example, do a 3 day a week full body routine, adding some 'sweaty stuff' at the end - as well as tack a session onto the end of your week. I would leave a rest day between that and your lifting though. So, for example, T, Th, Sat - lift. Sun, sweaty stuff.
How comfortable would you feel trying out lifts on your own (with video and instructional resources)?.
Thanks for the confirmation. I love your example of lifting T, Th, Sat. I will use this schedule. Now, if only I can find a routine.
Yes, if I had video and resources I would totally try it on my own. Do you have any reccomendations? I recently bought a cheap weight bench off craigslist. It's a basic bench with a 3lb bar and weights that total 100lbs. Hopefully that will get me going for a little while.
BTW- I really appreciate you following up and being so kind and patient with me. BIG THANK YOU for taking time to educate me and others.
You are very welcome.
Would you be comfortable going to the gym to do some of your training? It will be easier/safer with a power cage if you are going to do a routine with squats. Do you have someone at home that can spot you?
Yes, I can go to the gym to use the power cage. At this point, I'm willing to do whatever is necessary and will need to get out of my comfort zone to make it work. At home, I can use my husband to spot me.0
This discussion has been closed.