Help me reconcile CICO and sugar alcohols
Sabine_Stroehm
Posts: 19,263 Member
I see time and again where LCHF folks say the weight loss stalled when they added snacks and foods with sugar alcohols. In particular people say they don't lose weight when eating atkins bars, quest bars etc. All other things the same...
Help me understand how this happens. And, help me understand it in the context of CICO. (and carbs in!) I'm dense sometimes.
Help me understand how this happens. And, help me understand it in the context of CICO. (and carbs in!) I'm dense sometimes.
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I'm interested in the answer too. The man ate a couple of boxes of atkins bars and his losses stopped, not all at once obviously but...... Not sure if this is a factor or if he just hit a wall after losing 30 pounds.0
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There's not really any studies showing the mechanisms, but the hypothesis is that the sweet sensation triggers an insulin response, anyway, despite no actual glucose being added to the body. Keeping the insulin levels elevated hinders stored fatty acid mobility, and if they're elevated enough can stop it entirely in some people. It seems that not everyone reacts this way (or, not everyone reacts significantly enough), so it's been difficult to pin down for purposes of studying.0
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Modern obesity research focuses on the "reward value" of foods.
http://time.com/3746047/diet-soda-bad-belly-fat/
Artificial sweeteners, however, confuse our bodies and weaken the link in our brains between sweetness and calories. That, Hazuda says, can lead to weight gain and cravings for sweeter and sweeter treats.
There may be something else at work. A recent study in mice showed that artificial sweeteners actually changed the gut bacteria of mice in ways that made them vulnerable to insulin resistance and glucose intolerance — both of which can lead to weight gain. And other mice research suggests that artificial sweeteners are associated with a drop in the appetite-regulating hormone leptin, Hazuda says. Leptin is the hormone that inhibits hunger.
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This is all helpful... and that it could trigger an insulin response could explain why CICO "fails". Interesting.
I don't eat them often any more, but am going on an extended work trip and always have to bring some bars (I don't get to decide when to eat, or what is offered sometimes...) so i'm trying to decide which approach to use.0 -
Does the artifical sweetener list include stevia? I use stevia, and am jumping up and down the same two pounds for three weeks now. But, like a big baby, I have a hard time getting enough water in if it isn't sweetened with some lemon juice.0
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I thought stevia was natural, from a plant?0
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Stevia is natural, but if you're talking about insulin response, my guess would be that it works the same way.0
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bluefish86 wrote: »Stevia is natural, but if you're talking about insulin response, my guess would be that it works the same way.
Dangit.0 -
If you believe that sweetness matters, stevia is 300 times sweeter than sugar. Brain effects matter. Gut effects matter. Hormone effects matter. It's not all about carbs.0
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bluefish86 wrote: »Stevia is natural, but if you're talking about insulin response, my guess would be that it works the same way.
Yeah. I use less of it though for the amount of sweetness.0 -
I avoid them all-- the sugar alcohols tear up my gut, and after avoiding sugar for awhile traditionally sweet foods taste overly sweet to me. I prefer the sweetness of berries and vegetables now. Even 90% dark chocolate tastes sweet now.0
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I think it also depends on the individual. If I use sucralose, then it seems to still trigger that sweet response for me, and make me want more. But Truvia and Erythritol, I seem to have no issues with.
And don't even put me near Maltitol, which is used in most sugar free candy, or my stomach will explode. Horrid stuff.0 -
For Valentine's my wife gave me a box of chocolates made with sugar alcohols. I tried one & then tried to pawn them off on my grandchildren. They had one each and then said, "No thank you." If that bunch rejected it, it can't be candy.
For Father's Day youngest granddaughter (age 4) helped Grandma make breakfast. She suggested adding blueberries to the scrambled eggs like they did with the pancakes. A lot of people said "EEW" but add some cream cheese and I think she's on to something.0 -
Here is a Dr. Fung post about insulin causing insulin resistance, might help or might confuse
He says about halfway down:
" I’ve also said that insulin causes obesity. If this were true, you could expect that as we increase the dose of insulin from zero to 100 units/day over 6 months, that the patients would gain weight. True to form, that is exactly what happened. Patients gained 8.7 kg (19 lbs) over 6 months.
But look closely at their caloric intake. They were eating 300 less calories than at the beginning of the study. If you believe the Caloric Reduction as Primary (CRaP) theory – that it is all about reducing calories – you would be scratching you head wondering how you could reduce 300 calories per day and still gain almost 20 pounds."
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-causes-insulin-resistance-hormonal-obesity-x/0 -
I am about 90% Stevia, 10% erythritol, that said, I really only use it in my tea, so a very small amount. But.... I do drink wine, but I am losing slow (5-6 pounds a month) I need to see this as forever, so I am living and the weight is still coming off...0
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This is really interesting. I've been losing and gaining the same damned 4 pounds for the past few weeks - getting nowhere FAST - on a 1200 (or less) calorie diet, with less than 20g total carbs (often much less than that). This doesnt make sense to me as i have been really strict and i even started light exercising every day this week (for the 1st time in over 2 years), but im losing NOTHING. In fact, im a pound heavier today than this time last week.
If you had asked me if i was consuming anything that could be stalling my weightloss i would have said an irritated "absolutely not! - im not putting in all this effort to be cheating or overeating", BUT, i do chew a LOT of sugarfree fruit flavored gum (in an attempt to refrain from putting food in my mouth). But i do not just have 1 stick every now and then - i will chain chew 2 sticks at a time until the whole pack has gone... and then i'll probably start on another pack. So 1-2 packs a day. Once i get that sweet fruity taste i cant leave it alone until my jaw aches.
Another thing i consume a fair amount of is liquid Sucralose. Before going keto i used the powdered Splenda, but when i discovered it contained Maltodextrin as a filler, i switched to the liquid pure sucralose as i heard it had no effect on blood sugar. I have 5 drops in each mug of coffee, and i drink about 8 mugs coffee a day! (I actually have one of those huge pint coffee mugs, of which i drink 4 a day which includes my BPC of a morning, and each pint mug contains 10 drops sucralose liquid!.)
I always had a sweet tooth prior to keto. I thought i had it under control now as i dont crave anything with real sugar, but im seriously starting to wonder if all this fake sweetener is screwing up my hard work. I would HATE to give up sweetener altogether. I could never drink black coffee without it (urrrggghhhh! It was bad enough giving up milk in my coffee - and to give up coffee altogether is unthinkable. I've given up so much lately. I can only eat very small portions of food to stay within my calories so im constantly hungry and feeling rather denied as it is - I'll be asked to stop breathing so much air because its putting weight on soon! Argghhhhh!)
Can anyone comment on this? What do you think? Honestly?
And are there any sweeteners that DONT contain carbs or effect blood sugar?
I tried Stevia drops (Sweetleaf brand) and, urgh, what a disgusting bitter aftertaste! And that's coming from an artificial sweetener pro - i can stomach the taste of pretty much any other sweetener but Sweetleaf Stevia rendered my coffee undrinkable.
Ive got Erythritol crystals, which ive used for very, very occasional keto desserts that call for powdered sweetener, but when i logged it on MFP it threw up a HUGE number of carbs, so i didnt dare use it again. Ive tried Googling it but the info out there is contradictory. Some say Erythritol has NO effect on bloodsugar and no loggable carbs, whilst others say that is incorrect. What's the truth here?0 -
I was quite a Coke Zero drinker for a while there before getting serious about getting healthy. My mom drinks it, too, and we live close together so I see her quite a bit.
I chewed sugar free gum on occasion, too, but I've not paid much attention to what it was sweetened with. I haven't had any kind of low carb bar in years, because my GI track very clearly doesn't like them.
The idea of artificial sweeteners doesn't sit well with me, and I had read about that theory that they fool the body into releasing insulin anyway.
When I started this WOE, I avoided all sweeteners, artificial or otherwise. Then one day I had a headache and decided to get a Coke Zero, hoping the caffeine would help. I was curious about the effect on my body, too. Sure enough, I started craving sweets and even went over on calories that day.
I won't say I'll never eat or drink anything sweet again, but it's going to be a rare exception for me. On the positive side, I notice the naturally occurring sugar in everything now. Tomatoes, cucumbers, unsweetened whole milk yogurt... It's kind of fun. I tried an apple slice the other day and it tasted like candy, maybe even sweeter than my memory of candy. I enjoyed the one slice and wasn't tempted to have more, like it fulfilled whatever baseline craving I have for sweetness.
My weight loss has definitely slowed anyway.0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »If you had asked me if i was consuming anything that could be stalling my weightloss i would have said an irritated "absolutely not! - im not putting in all this effort to be cheating or overeating", BUT, i do chew a LOT of sugarfree fruit flavored gum (in an attempt to refrain from putting food in my mouth). But i do not just have 1 stick every now and then - i will chain chew 2 sticks at a time until the whole pack has gone... and then i'll probably start on another pack. So 1-2 packs a day. Once i get that sweet fruity taste i cant leave it alone until my jaw aches.
I have done that binge thing on gum, too. The only advice I have on that is to get away from the yummy fruit flavors. I personally love Sour Patch Gum and would eat the whole thing - 3 packs, stacking different flavors together. So, what I've done to stop that is get a gum you can barely tolerate (for me, Trident, original flavor). It still has that sweet burst of sugar alcohol, but rarely does it trigger the binge craving (it has done it once in 3 months), and it leaves this weird cinnamon/minty combo taste that keeps me from wanting anything else for a while.
I have also binged through a bag of Trident Strawberry Lime Splash and Ice Breakers Cool Lemon whatever, both with disastrously exploding bowel results. The sugar alcohol in the regular trident doesn't do that to me.mlinton_mesapark wrote: »When I started this WOE, I avoided all sweeteners, artificial or otherwise. Then one day I had a headache and decided to get a Coke Zero, hoping the caffeine would help. I was curious about the effect on my body, too. Sure enough, I started craving sweets and even went over on calories that day.
I found this to be true for me as well, as I liked the Diet Cherry Vanilla Dr. Pepper, but the combo of the red dye (my intestines' mortal enemy) and the Splenda or whatever were enough to trigger major headaches and cravings and all manner of travesty. I haven't had one in months, but if I choose to, I'll go for the diet flavor I like and do it in small doses. I wish my stores carried the Zevia sodas...0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »
Can anyone comment on this? What do you think? Honestly?
I'm thinking that is a lot of sweetener. I'm definitely not an expert and I'm still learning a lot, but I remember reading in Westman, Volek, and Phinney's new Atkins book that they should be used sparingly, especially when you are in the phase where you are sticking to 20g /day carbs. I think it said if you are using more than 3 packets a day and not losing then cut back to 3, or if you are drinking a lot of other drinks with artificial sweeteners to cut those out.
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@CoconuttyMummy, I think you can do two things right now which may push you out of your "Stall" (I use the quotes as I think true stalls are something like 4-6 weeks, so if you're only 1-2 weeks in...)...
1st UP your calories...I know this seems counter productive, but 1200 is the bare minimum and unless you are very petite and very inactive, your body needs more food. I hate that whole starvation nonsense, but if you are not eating enough and also stressing about what you can eat, then you're releasing hormones which are counterproductive to your weight loss goals. Up a little at a time and see if that helps.
2nd CUT the sugar and sugar substitutes completely. For a week, give it a go. The first few days are soo tough, but those first few days on any food restriction is tough. You say you have already cut so much, so what's one more? and really, isn't this the beast we are all trying slay?
I feel the same as you in that I cannot give up coffee, and HATED the idea of drinking it black...but it's not that bad.
As far as the discussion about sugar substitutes and insulin spikes and weight stalls...I have no idea. Wish I was that smart. But I try to eat nothing too sweet, because like so many others, when I do, I crave more and feel hungrier. I LOVE not being controlled by my appetite so much more then anything sweet. If I really, really crave something sweet, I have a couple of sips of a diet soda and that helps soo much.
Best of luck0 -
Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!! 0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
Water taste can be altered. I'm making at go at salting my water (which I've always hated before), but it is getting easier. Some people us a slice of lemon or lime in their water, or even cucumber. I personally don't like that, but after years of forcing myself to switch to water (and hating it too, at first), I find that now, I love the taste of water. The have dye and barely sweetened MIO type flavor things now, but you still need plain water, too...biologically.
I tell people, if you wouldn't wash your clothes in coffee and expect them to be clean, why would you "wash" the insides of your body (removing toxins and cellular debris, etc.) in coffee and expect it to get "clean." Sometimes, it is worth chugging bottled water (the local stuff here is AWFUL) now and again, forcibly, just to get more water in...
I pretty much drink water and tea... That's it really.0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
fwiw: I add a passion tea bag to cold water. It steeps, albeit slowly, and makes the water taste great!0 -
Oh, and you know there is caffeinated water, too, right? The main brand I've heard of is Water Joe...and you can order it online.0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
Water taste can be altered. I'm making at go at salting my water (which I've always hated before), but it is getting easier. Some people us a slice of lemon or lime in their water, or even cucumber. I personally don't like that, but after years of forcing myself to switch to water (and hating it too, at first), I find that now, I love the taste of water. The have dye and barely sweetened MIO type flavor things now, but you still need plain water, too...biologically.
I tell people, if you wouldn't wash your clothes in coffee and expect them to be clean, why would you "wash" the insides of your body (removing toxins and cellular debris, etc.) in coffee and expect it to get "clean." Sometimes, it is worth chugging bottled water (the local stuff here is AWFUL) now and again, forcibly, just to get more water in...
I pretty much drink water and tea... That's it really.
What could possibly taste worse than water?... SALT WATER! My gawd, Knit, you're hardcore! I know we need to keep our sodium up but the only result id get from attempting to drink salted water would be projectile vomiting! Ugh! I feel nauseous just thinking about it. *shudders*.
What are MIO type things? Never heard of them.
What about those little tiny squeezy tubes of super concentrated fruit squash to flavor water? I wonder if they would work out less carby than regular fruit squash or just the same?
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
For lunch I get a 32 ounce unsweetened iced tea with ice and drink that all afternoon.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
fwiw: I add a passion tea bag to cold water. It steeps, albeit slowly, and makes the water taste great!
Hmm, fruity tea-bags are a possibility. Mind you, you know what fruit teas need dont you? - bl@@dy sweetener! lol
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
fwiw: I add a passion tea bag to cold water. It steeps, albeit slowly, and makes the water taste great!
Hmm, fruity tea-bags are a possibility. Mind you, you know what fruit teas need dont you? - bl@@dy sweetener! lol
You really do get used to it without. And eventually, you don't notice at all.0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
fwiw: I add a passion tea bag to cold water. It steeps, albeit slowly, and makes the water taste great!
Hmm, fruity tea-bags are a possibility. Mind you, you know what fruit teas need dont you? - bl@@dy sweetener! lol
If you go slow and savor it, the fragrance alone tricks your taste buds to the sweet bit.0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Thankyou guys *hugs*, really appreciate your inputs.
So the gum is out, period. Gone. See ya!
The drinks will be harder. Im going to consciously reduce my intake and see if this helps. I want to cut them out completely (well, i dont want to, but need to it seems), but i honestly dont know what id drink instead. I know this sounds so lame but i genuinely hate the taste of water. If i have to drink water only i become very dehydrated b/c i just cant bring myself to drink more than a diddy sip at a time. Ive always hated water. What could i switch the sweetened coffees and diet soda's for?
What do you guys drink on a day-to-day basis? And please dont all say WATER!!!!
Water taste can be altered. I'm making at go at salting my water (which I've always hated before), but it is getting easier. Some people us a slice of lemon or lime in their water, or even cucumber. I personally don't like that, but after years of forcing myself to switch to water (and hating it too, at first), I find that now, I love the taste of water. The have dye and barely sweetened MIO type flavor things now, but you still need plain water, too...biologically.
I tell people, if you wouldn't wash your clothes in coffee and expect them to be clean, why would you "wash" the insides of your body (removing toxins and cellular debris, etc.) in coffee and expect it to get "clean." Sometimes, it is worth chugging bottled water (the local stuff here is AWFUL) now and again, forcibly, just to get more water in...
I pretty much drink water and tea... That's it really.
What could possibly taste worse than water?... SALT WATER! My gawd, Knit, you're hardcore! I know we need to keep our sodium up but the only result id get from attempting to drink salted water would be projectile vomiting! Ugh! I feel nauseous just thinking about it. *shudders*.
What are MIO type things? Never heard of them.
What about those little tiny squeezy tubes of super concentrated fruit squash to flavor water? I wonder if they would work out less carby than regular fruit squash or just the same?
Yeah, Mio is the brand here in the US. I forget what my fiance called the UK version... but yeah, liquid squeeze pod. squishing fruit into your water will have less carbs as long as you stay to the non-sweet fruits. You're looking for flavor, not sweetness.
I find that temperature matters, too, on water.
The salt water thing doesn't taste salty at all. It's hard to explain. I have pink himalayan salt I put in my grinder. I add like 4 of those "grains" into a 17 oz water bottle. It changes water from acid to alkaline (which can also help with heartburn/GERD/etc.), but it doesn't taste salty. Of course, with my thyroid being low, lots of salt makes me feel like superwoman on Ritalin anyway (the iodine, mainly, I think), so I can take salt plain. not too much or I get the tossing reaction, too... I'd much rather eat crystals between each bottle.0
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