I spoke too soon...
Replies
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »I'm struggling again
I thought i had this all worked out, but today was baad. (...)
So, i figured id try the same again today. FAIL! I managed until about 2pm without eating (so i managed a 19 hr water fast, not bad), but then hunger hit harrrrd. (...)
I was ravenous. (...)
I was so upset and frustrated with myself. My main goal is a serious body recomp
(...)
First off. Calm down. Take several deep breaths and exhale SLOWLY count to 4-6, hold breath, count to 4-6, inhale count again. Do this a couple of cycles. This is a breathing technique that switches on para sympatethic nervous system. Use it whenever you feel stressed out.
Second. In your case you're all over the place. You're trying too many things at the same time, lasting a day or two. Then you let your feelings run you, which stress you out even more, right ? So, my advice is: Pick ONE PRIMARY GOAL. If that is to cut or recomp, the methods will differ. If you try to recomp, you may be eating too little according to your training schedule. Find balance. Whenever you try something new, try it at least for 2-3 weeks. Assess if any effect, adjust or discard. Write in your diary how you felt or whatever happened, accept that is part of your experiment. This is not about failure or success.
You said somewhere, maybe in another thread, that you didn't wanna commit to anything unless you knew it would "pay off". Well, since we're all different. Experimenting is part of the journey. Detach yourself from a possible outcome. Overfocusing on outcomes, gives feelings of failure more often than focusing on the experiment/variables. For example. Top athletes who overfocus on getting the medals, often get performance anxiety on race day. Which can often make them too jumpy. We tend to make "bad decisions" when our sympathetic system is too turned on. Fight or flight response.
Being in tune with yourself, accepting what happens without judging. Living in the PRESENT MOMENT is what heals your mind from scatterbrain. Balance is a stream of constant adjusting. Analyze your situation, break it down into very small, manageable bites. Any real effects from all your specific questions, you have to test it. No one on the internet can "know" this for your body. What really helped me, was to think of experimenting as a learning experience. When I make mistakes, it's now more like: "Oh, bummer. That happened. Now I know what to avoid or try not repeat". Sometimes I repeat the mistake, to test if there really was a link or if it was a spurious effect. Same goes for success too. Test everything! I use reading about other people's experiences, watching vids as only an inspiration of things I can test out. What applies in some study or for someone else, might not apply for ME.
Third. IF'ing is easier with gradual phasing in. Doing back to back is not recommended as first experience. Patience. I'm sorry for stating the obvious, but when you have done almost 2 days of short eating windows, your body is still not yet accustomed to this. Feelings of hunger is natural in the context you described above and is nothing to worry about. IME, the zen, total lack of hunger feeling takes more time to develop...with fasting consistently over a couple of weeks. It also depends on how addicted the individual is to the act of eating. Whether you ween off by gradually decreasing daily eating window or other method, that's up to you.
I hope that helps. Wish you well, sweetie
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Hmm. Personally, I have had great results with a full body workout 3x a week, then active rest days in between. I tend to be more hungry the day after lifting, so I eat a bit more that day, and then a bit less on the other days.
I know you want results like yesterday, but trying all of these conflicting strategies all at once might not be the best way to do that?
I've been doing 2 exercises per muscle, 5 sets of 12 reps each. I find this easier to fit in when doing a split routine, i think. Im not very fast or efficient when im training yet, my split W/Os take me 1 hr, so i feel like a full body workout would take me 'til midnight to complete!
Which strategies do you think im doing that are conflicting? Do you mean fasting and weight-lifting? I didnt realise you werent meant to do exercise when IFing?
A full body workout is one where you are doing exercises which work the whole body, like squats, deadlifts, etc. Not that you are doing 3 isolated exercises for each body part on each workout. I am doing a program from Nia Shanks called K.I.S.S. Total Body. My workouts take about 30 minutes.
For example:
Day 1: Squats, Standing Overhead Press, Barbell Rows
Day 2: Reverse Lunges, Pushups, Dumbell Rows
Day 3: Deadlifts, Bench Press, Barbell Rows Palms up
For the first 5 weeks the reps and sets are 2x5 and 2x10. Then the next 5 weeks are 3x3 and 2 x 12. On the sets with lower reps, you increase the weight because you can handle a higher weight for less reps. Each workout you try to add more weight from the last week when you are able (but sometimes you can't, for me it is harder to increase weight on overhead press and bench because as an older woman my arms by themselves are weaker). For 4 weeks you attempt to add weight and the 5th week is a deload week where you reduce the weights before going into the next phase and increasing again.
A program like Stronglifts is a 5 x 5 program. There are other programs out there too.
To sum it all up: Working out more and harder is not necessarily smarter or more effective. And I agree with others, you need to fuel this activity.
Also, working out causes your muscles to retain water for repair. Increases on the scale result. You can't go by the scale when doing a recomp. Often, you see increase on the scale but are leaner. You could be 1 or 2 sizes smaller, but 10 or 20 pounds heavier after a recomp. So do not be married to that number on the scale.
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I forgot about this to illustrate what I meant on possibly being heavier but smaller. Have you read the article about Staci on Nerd Fitness?
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2011/07/21/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/
If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down to near the bottom of the article where it says "STACI NOW" and look at the comparison pics where she is heavier after but has less fat.0 -
CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Nearing training time, should i just eat a ~600 calorie dinner, 1.5hrs prior to working out, and save my protein shake with HWC for after my train? That would be a lot less energy to need to digest in a short space of time, and i wouldnt feel so ridiculously full whilst i lift, but would i have enough energy to fuel my workout?
And if i saved my protein shake until after training (9-10pm at night) would i still be able to add the 2 tbsp HWC or would it be a bad idea to consume that much fat after weight-lifting and just before going to bed?
Oh and one more question for anyone who can answer......
Is there a maximum amount of protein your body can utilise in one sitting? I read that your body can only absorb so much protein in one go, and any surplus will be wasted and/or turn to fat. Is this true? If so, how much is the maximum protein usable by the body, in what period of time?
Obviously whilst IFing we have a small window to eat, Is 85-90g protein in a 1 to 5 hour eating window going to be fully utilised by the body in one go, for muscle growth and repair? Or for this purpose would it be optimum to eat your protein allotment in 2-3 smaller portions, such as 30g protein 3x a day?
You're over thinking it. Take a step back. Drop the IFing for now. Eat when you're hungry and stop when you're satiated. If that's two 600 calorie meals, cool. If that's 3 400 calorie meals, that's cool too. Doing one giant meal right before a workout obviously doesn't work for you, so do what has worked - a smaller meal before your workout and your protein treat after.
No one here can tell you whether the dessert right before bed is a good idea for you. You need to try it and see how you react. Did it interfere with your sleep? How did you feel at bed time after having it? How did you feel the next morning? That's what matters most.CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Hmm. Personally, I have had great results with a full body workout 3x a week, then active rest days in between. I tend to be more hungry the day after lifting, so I eat a bit more that day, and then a bit less on the other days.
I know you want results like yesterday, but trying all of these conflicting strategies all at once might not be the best way to do that?
I've been doing 2 exercises per muscle, 5 sets of 12 reps each. I find this easier to fit in when doing a split routine, i think. Im not very fast or efficient when im training yet, my split W/Os take me 1 hr, so i feel like a full body workout would take me 'til midnight to complete!
Which strategies do you think im doing that are conflicting? Do you mean fasting and weight-lifting? I didnt realise you werent meant to do exercise when IFing?
Why are you doing 5x12? That's a lot of volume. Increase the weight and do 5x5 or 3x5 routines and do compound lifts -- squat, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, snatches, etc. It will take far less time and get you the results you're looking for.
Doing what you're doing is clearly not working for you, so drop the IFing and focus on getting a weight routine that gets you the results without long hours in the gym.0 -
@dragonwolf. - I
U!! Excellent posts. Thanks for the links too. 0 -
Dragonwolf, lots of great info!!
This thread delivers0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »Coconut
I will share a bit more about me personally
I had a general practitioner and an internal medicine Dr helping me reverse diabetes. I also talked to the practice nutritionist
I think Wab will or others versed in Keto dieting will need to chime in.
I eat a gram of protein per pound basically. I have about 168 pounds of muscle mass on average thru the week average.
I get into a Keto state by burning out my blood sugar. I do eat less fat than you do and a bit more carbs. More like 60 a day from vegetables.
I have a very specific workout routine. Two days of eating 2200 or so calories, those days are lifting days. I have 1 scoop of protein a half hour before and then after working out. Many believe that is the window to feed a muscle. That fed muscle repairs as you sleep and are not calorie deprived. It isn't that complicated.
The cardio workout days are like today. 1600 or so calories, lots of meat and some fat, coconut oil, then exercise kind of long and fairl hard on an empty stomach. Cardio level work. I will have a protein shake to repair my legs after that work
Day off.
That is it, a 2 day cycle.
Do the two day cycle again.
Weekend Ride long 30 mile plus day fasted. Eat back a good many calories but still in deficit . Day off!
Repeat cycle.
I do the two day cycle twice and one long ride day with two days off.
I only am dieting 4 days.
I think you are very excited to lose weight! And I am very happy to cheer you on and share the joy of every pound you lose! You are a very sweet person and I enjoy your comments.
I do think you could maybe ease up on the aggressive goals you have. Overtraining is a vicious cycle. You lose muscle and get exercise flu. So for that month you may lose nothing!! If you settle in on just losing a pound a week or 3 pounds a month... You will get there and you will fee better.
You have to remember you are not me. I'm an ex Navy Amphibious Warfare guy. I ran the obstacle course a couple times a week. Swam a mile fully dressed with a gun. You gotta be Coconut and enjoy that. Please don't hurt yourself trying too hard.
Ride from today. 20 miles. Calorie burn for fat adaption.
Aww, Pro, I really appreciated your post.
Im going to have to sit down and give this some thought. I know you said I should ease up on the aggressive goals a bit but I'm psyched about the possibility I could be something OTHER than Coconut, at least on the outside (well, on the inside too actually). I've proved in my life so far that not putting much effort in reaps no rewards, so I want to see how far I can go if I DO put the genuine effort in. And I'm under no illusion that my muscle accumulation goals realistically demand a lot of effort, particularly as im of the female variety0 -
Foamroller wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »I'm struggling again
I thought i had this all worked out, but today was baad. (...)
So, i figured id try the same again today. FAIL! I managed until about 2pm without eating (so i managed a 19 hr water fast, not bad), but then hunger hit harrrrd. (...)
I was ravenous. (...)
I was so upset and frustrated with myself. My main goal is a serious body recomp
(...)
First off. Calm down. Take several deep breaths and exhale SLOWLY count to 4-6, hold breath, count to 4-6, inhale count again. Do this a couple of cycles. This is a breathing technique that switches on para sympatethic nervous system. Use it whenever you feel stressed out.
Second. In your case you're all over the place. You're trying too many things at the same time, lasting a day or two. Then you let your feelings run you, which stress you out even more, right ? So, my advice is: Pick ONE PRIMARY GOAL. If that is to cut or recomp, the methods will differ. If you try to recomp, you may be eating too little according to your training schedule. Find balance. Whenever you try something new, try it at least for 2-3 weeks. Assess if any effect, adjust or discard. Write in your diary how you felt or whatever happened, accept that is part of your experiment. This is not about failure or success.
You said somewhere, maybe in another thread, that you didn't wanna commit to anything unless you knew it would "pay off". Well, since we're all different. Experimenting is part of the journey. Detach yourself from a possible outcome. Overfocusing on outcomes, gives feelings of failure more often than focusing on the experiment/variables. For example. Top athletes who overfocus on getting the medals, often get performance anxiety on race day. Which can often make them too jumpy. We tend to make "bad decisions" when our sympathetic system is too turned on. Fight or flight response.
Being in tune with yourself, accepting what happens without judging. Living in the PRESENT MOMENT is what heals your mind from scatterbrain. Balance is a stream of constant adjusting. Analyze your situation, break it down into very small, manageable bites. Any real effects from all your specific questions, you have to test it. No one on the internet can "know" this for your body. What really helped me, was to think of experimenting as a learning experience. When I make mistakes, it's now more like: "Oh, bummer. That happened. Now I know what to avoid or try not repeat". Sometimes I repeat the mistake, to test if there really was a link or if it was a spurious effect. Same goes for success too. Test everything! I use reading about other people's experiences, watching vids as only an inspiration of things I can test out. What applies in some study or for someone else, might not apply for ME.
Third. IF'ing is easier with gradual phasing in. Doing back to back is not recommended as first experience. Patience. I'm sorry for stating the obvious, but when you have done almost 2 days of short eating windows, your body is still not yet accustomed to this. Feelings of hunger is natural in the context you described above and is nothing to worry about. IME, the zen, total lack of hunger feeling takes more time to develop...with fasting consistently over a couple of weeks. It also depends on how addicted the individual is to the act of eating. Whether you ween off by gradually decreasing daily eating window or other method, that's up to you.
I hope that helps. Wish you well, sweetie
This was an inspirational post @Foamroller . Thanks for your candid thoughts. Lots of food for thought and on the money. X
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Hmm. Personally, I have had great results with a full body workout 3x a week, then active rest days in between. I tend to be more hungry the day after lifting, so I eat a bit more that day, and then a bit less on the other days.
I know you want results like yesterday, but trying all of these conflicting strategies all at once might not be the best way to do that?
I've been doing 2 exercises per muscle, 5 sets of 12 reps each. I find this easier to fit in when doing a split routine, i think. Im not very fast or efficient when im training yet, my split W/Os take me 1 hr, so i feel like a full body workout would take me 'til midnight to complete!
Which strategies do you think im doing that are conflicting? Do you mean fasting and weight-lifting? I didnt realise you werent meant to do exercise when IFing?
A full body workout is one where you are doing exercises which work the whole body, like squats, deadlifts, etc. Not that you are doing 3 isolated exercises for each body part on each workout. I am doing a program from Nia Shanks called K.I.S.S. Total Body. My workouts take about 30 minutes.
For example:
Day 1: Squats, Standing Overhead Press, Barbell Rows
Day 2: Reverse Lunges, Pushups, Dumbell Rows
Day 3: Deadlifts, Bench Press, Barbell Rows Palms up
For the first 5 weeks the reps and sets are 2x5 and 2x10. Then the next 5 weeks are 3x3 and 2 x 12. On the sets with lower reps, you increase the weight because you can handle a higher weight for less reps. Each workout you try to add more weight from the last week when you are able (but sometimes you can't, for me it is harder to increase weight on overhead press and bench because as an older woman my arms by themselves are weaker). For 4 weeks you attempt to add weight and the 5th week is a deload week where you reduce the weights before going into the next phase and increasing again.
A program like Stronglifts is a 5 x 5 program. There are other programs out there too.
To sum it all up: Working out more and harder is not necessarily smarter or more effective. And I agree with others, you need to fuel this activity.
Also, working out causes your muscles to retain water for repair. Increases on the scale result. You can't go by the scale when doing a recomp. Often, you see increase on the scale but are leaner. You could be 1 or 2 sizes smaller, but 10 or 20 pounds heavier after a recomp. So do not be married to that number on the scale.
This was a great read. I think I need to start looking into proper set lifting programs to follow, now I'm eased in to the habit and enjoyment of training.
Your program looks great and would be something I'd consider, but honestly I'm still drawn more to a split body routine with both compound and isolation moves - I love my bicep curls, concentration curls, flies, lateral raises etc and I'd miss those kind of exercises if I was to only do compound moves.
I'd agree that I've been all over the place - flitting from one method to another, often trying several things at once, and then changing it up again after just a couple days. I'm so eager to hit my sweet spot I'm spinning too many plates at once. I'm going to take everyone's advice and concentrate on my primary goal and give every experiment at least 2 weeks before I gauge its efficacy in my rotation.
Time to neaten my methods up.
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Dragonwolf wrote: »CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Nearing training time, should i just eat a ~600 calorie dinner, 1.5hrs prior to working out, and save my protein shake with HWC for after my train? That would be a lot less energy to need to digest in a short space of time, and i wouldnt feel so ridiculously full whilst i lift, but would i have enough energy to fuel my workout?
And if i saved my protein shake until after training (9-10pm at night) would i still be able to add the 2 tbsp HWC or would it be a bad idea to consume that much fat after weight-lifting and just before going to bed?
Oh and one more question for anyone who can answer......
Is there a maximum amount of protein your body can utilise in one sitting? I read that your body can only absorb so much protein in one go, and any surplus will be wasted and/or turn to fat. Is this true? If so, how much is the maximum protein usable by the body, in what period of time?
Obviously whilst IFing we have a small window to eat, Is 85-90g protein in a 1 to 5 hour eating window going to be fully utilised by the body in one go, for muscle growth and repair? Or for this purpose would it be optimum to eat your protein allotment in 2-3 smaller portions, such as 30g protein 3x a day?
You're over thinking it. Take a step back. Drop the IFing for now. Eat when you're hungry and stop when you're satiated. If that's two 600 calorie meals, cool. If that's 3 400 calorie meals, that's cool too. Doing one giant meal right before a workout obviously doesn't work for you, so do what has worked - a smaller meal before your workout and your protein treat after.
No one here can tell you whether the dessert right before bed is a good idea for you. You need to try it and see how you react. Did it interfere with your sleep? How did you feel at bed time after having it? How did you feel the next morning? That's what matters most.CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Hmm. Personally, I have had great results with a full body workout 3x a week, then active rest days in between. I tend to be more hungry the day after lifting, so I eat a bit more that day, and then a bit less on the other days.
I know you want results like yesterday, but trying all of these conflicting strategies all at once might not be the best way to do that?
I've been doing 2 exercises per muscle, 5 sets of 12 reps each. I find this easier to fit in when doing a split routine, i think. Im not very fast or efficient when im training yet, my split W/Os take me 1 hr, so i feel like a full body workout would take me 'til midnight to complete!
Which strategies do you think im doing that are conflicting? Do you mean fasting and weight-lifting? I didnt realise you werent meant to do exercise when IFing?
Why are you doing 5x12? That's a lot of volume. Increase the weight and do 5x5 or 3x5 routines and do compound lifts -- squat, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, snatches, etc. It will take far less time and get you the results you're looking for.
Doing what you're doing is clearly not working for you, so drop the IFing and focus on getting a weight routine that gets you the results without long hours in the gym.
Actually, speaking too soon seems to be a bad habit of mine... I woke up this morning to my lowest weight yet! Same muscle mass % (highest yet) and lowest body fat %. Yay!0 -
Oh my DAYS @Dragonwolf , I just wrote you a super long reply above and it's all disappeared. Grrrr! It's late now so I'll have to try to rewrite it tomorrow. Pfft, sorry, sweetie. X0
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CoconuttyMummy wrote: »Ditch the potassium. IF doesn't cause swollen stomachs. Celery is almost the lowest carb food you can eat. Has celery ever upset your stomach previously? Sounds like you had an allergic reaction to something you ate. And forget working out on days you fast. That's my recommendations.
Dan the Man from Michigan
Really, ditch the potassium? But everyone warns you when you keto that you need to increase potassium (and sodium/magnesium) to keep your electrolytes up? TMI, but im constantly peeing still, often every 20-30 mins!, so i thought it was sensible that maybe i was low. I think i did overdo the dosage though. It said on the pack 1/8th tsp was ~350mg potassium. I took a whole tsp. - that's around 2.8g potassium in one dose. Is that silly high? oops
I do agree with you, though, Dan, it does seem to have been the potassium-stock drink that upset my stomach and made me sick and bloated. I thought it 'could' be the fasting upsetting my tummy, but if you say that is not likely, then the obvious culprit would be taking too much potassium on an empty-ish stomach.
Are you sure about ditching the potassium completely though? Surely ketoers need to continue supplementing a little bit to ensure we meet our needs?
I get enough potassium for the small amount of lite-salt I use occasionally. I wouldn't take that much (2.8g). That's probably what did it.
I have figured it out when fasting the sodium is more important to me. On my fasting days, I lick season salt in the afternoon. If I forget and then start feeling like crap, I eat about 1/2 teaspoon of salt, (wetting the tip of my finger then eating ~ takes about 30 minutes to eat it all). Then I feel better in a couple hours.
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
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