I Have a "Gut" Feeling...
DittoDan
Posts: 1,850 Member
I have had a theory (for over two and half years now) that it's our gut microbes/flora/probiotics/pathogens/bacteria that have screwed up our health and is the "root cause" for the insulin resistance, carb intolerance.
In other words, the LCHF Keto diet is only a tool to combat the effects of the gut microbes being screwed up. I am hoping that my gut flora can be repaired, so that I can eat a normal amount of carbs once I reach my goal weight ~ and not gain weight.
What prompted the thoughts below, is a Chinese doctor I corresponded with a couple years ago. He had a peer reviewed study where they changed the gut microbes in some obese diabetic lab rats and they lost the weight without medicine, ended their diabetes and lived happily thereafter.
So my theory goes like this, antibiotics, chlorine, high sugars (all types), fluorides, (insert your favorite chemical here) etc, that has caused a shift in the flora in our (fat, insulin resistant people's) stomach. The "bad" pathogens have taken over, and cause all the trouble. Whether they excrete enzymes or do other bad things, IDK.
There are whole societies that eat high carb diets, and don't get fat or unhealthy (India, Asia). But, in those societies, there ARE random FAT people. Some possible observations:
- you should find two people, that eat almost exactly the same thing, or that both eats a high carb diet ~ but one person gets morbidly obese and one doesn't
- The bad gut microbe is "passed down" through the parents, (the whole family could be fat) (my family!)
- That the "tool" LCHF diet, will only help the person lose the weight, but he will have to maintain that diet in order to stay at goal. In other words, the diet doesn't attack the root cause, and therefore is not a long term solution.
- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then? I personally think its the antibiotics with excess sugar/hi-glycemic carbs/grains. To a MUCH lesser degree, chlorinated water, fluoride, and other chemicals. Of course, without those things, the whole society would of gotten all those plagues that beset mankind forever, (just look up all the diseases we DON'T have now, that were the biggest killers of people at that time.) Also, they didn't have refrigeration, ate "differently" preserved foods (salt, fermentation).
This is a theory, and I know researchers are looking into it. IF there was a set of "Probiotics" in a pill form that you could take ~ to correct the gut microbes, then that company/inventor/pharmicist WOULD BE $$$TRILLIONAIRES$$$!
Anyway, I was thinking about starting a regimen of "fermented foods". Kombucha, Kefir, ??? (give me some ideas)
I also heard that bitter herbs could do it. The Chinese doctor I corresponded with, fed them to the rats, but he would not tell me which ones. So IDK. If you google bitter herbs ~ you'll find people selling them, all claim they are cure-alls.
Anyway, hopefully the scientists figure this out.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ACP/32295
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
Current weight: 197.9, 116 pounds down, 19 to go. 13.5 months on diet
In other words, the LCHF Keto diet is only a tool to combat the effects of the gut microbes being screwed up. I am hoping that my gut flora can be repaired, so that I can eat a normal amount of carbs once I reach my goal weight ~ and not gain weight.
What prompted the thoughts below, is a Chinese doctor I corresponded with a couple years ago. He had a peer reviewed study where they changed the gut microbes in some obese diabetic lab rats and they lost the weight without medicine, ended their diabetes and lived happily thereafter.
So my theory goes like this, antibiotics, chlorine, high sugars (all types), fluorides, (insert your favorite chemical here) etc, that has caused a shift in the flora in our (fat, insulin resistant people's) stomach. The "bad" pathogens have taken over, and cause all the trouble. Whether they excrete enzymes or do other bad things, IDK.
There are whole societies that eat high carb diets, and don't get fat or unhealthy (India, Asia). But, in those societies, there ARE random FAT people. Some possible observations:
- you should find two people, that eat almost exactly the same thing, or that both eats a high carb diet ~ but one person gets morbidly obese and one doesn't
- The bad gut microbe is "passed down" through the parents, (the whole family could be fat) (my family!)
- That the "tool" LCHF diet, will only help the person lose the weight, but he will have to maintain that diet in order to stay at goal. In other words, the diet doesn't attack the root cause, and therefore is not a long term solution.
- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then? I personally think its the antibiotics with excess sugar/hi-glycemic carbs/grains. To a MUCH lesser degree, chlorinated water, fluoride, and other chemicals. Of course, without those things, the whole society would of gotten all those plagues that beset mankind forever, (just look up all the diseases we DON'T have now, that were the biggest killers of people at that time.) Also, they didn't have refrigeration, ate "differently" preserved foods (salt, fermentation).
This is a theory, and I know researchers are looking into it. IF there was a set of "Probiotics" in a pill form that you could take ~ to correct the gut microbes, then that company/inventor/pharmicist WOULD BE $$$TRILLIONAIRES$$$!
Anyway, I was thinking about starting a regimen of "fermented foods". Kombucha, Kefir, ??? (give me some ideas)
I also heard that bitter herbs could do it. The Chinese doctor I corresponded with, fed them to the rats, but he would not tell me which ones. So IDK. If you google bitter herbs ~ you'll find people selling them, all claim they are cure-alls.
Anyway, hopefully the scientists figure this out.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ACP/32295
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
Current weight: 197.9, 116 pounds down, 19 to go. 13.5 months on diet
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K thx lemme know0
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I don't eat any fermented foods at the moment because I'm fighting acid reflux/acid balance and they make me burp like a cow. I do use an animal probiotic in my yogurt when I have it. It seems to help the goats, lots of active culture.0
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A couple books have been written on the subject.
Brain Maker
Gut
In the Gut book, he tells us the "gut instinct" is literally due to the neurons in your gut.
There's also a microbiome project that is collecting samples from a bunch of people to determine correlates with various disorders. So far, I think they've just determined that the microbiome is pretty diverse, but I don't think they've pinned much down yet.0 -
- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then?
I would say that people didn't sit around all day then. You had to walk everywhere, you had to work pretty hard just to keep warm and fed, there were no electronics to sit in front of for entertainment, etc etc.
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- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then?
I would say that people didn't sit around all day then. You had to walk everywhere, you had to work pretty hard just to keep warm and fed, there were no electronics to sit in front of for entertainment, etc etc.
I agree, but exercise is not a primary mover for weight loss. Its what we eat that is more important...
Dan0 -
Ty Bollinger in his new 9 part series on world wide cancer treatment protocols refers to the gut as the second brain. I guess this is where the term "gut feeling" comes from perhaps.
While I have no longing to go back on carbs ever at my age I to think after curing a leaking gut we may have new options in what we eat down the road.0 -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-raphael-kellman/the-microbiome-diet-evolv_2_b_6436122.html
I'm not sure how I feel about this doctor but it seems he generally agrees with what you are thinking...definitely interested to see more studies.0 -
Go for it, maybe you will like some of the new food ideas.
I tried a few weeks of high probiotics. Kombucha, kimchee, sauerkraut, Kefir, yogurts, miso soup, florastor, I ended up tossing most of it out.
I hope you have better luck with it. I just don't like the vinegar type flavors.
FYI - Go easy on the Kombucha. I drank too much too soon and it did not agree with my gi tract in that amount. I think there's a thread about moderate portions here.
Interesting hypothesis tho.
Personally, I'm guessing I can't entirely blame my gut flora as contributing to my weight gain. I WAS drinking and eating out - big meals w lots of carbs- almost every night. It really was excess calories in my case and no exercise and also stress didn't help. I don't think any gut microbes healthy or unhealthy could reasonably handle two white Russian cocktails a night or a bottle of wine every eve. (but that's just me. LOL)
I agree that - - high sugars (all types) and alcohol in my case, caused a shift (probably complete elimination) in the flora in my stomach. The "bad" pathogens may have taken over, ( but I doubt even the bad pathogens could survive in that toxicity and the cause of my weight gains. At least not entirely.
This would be interesting to experiment-to find two people, that eat almost exactly the same thing, or that both eats a high carb diet ~ but one person gets morbidly obese and one doesn't ---given the same height and physical activity.
Agree with the excess sugar/hi-glycemic carbs/grains. What's changed since the 1800's, early 1900's? I think physical activity has a lot to do with it, AND the current availability of pre-processed pre-packaged foods. Canned soda and bags of chips weren't a plenty for the noshing.
I supposed if one were on a heavy regime of antibiotics it might justify taking additional probiotics. I think supplemental probiotics help the bacterial pH Levels in the gut, but there are specific strains of probiotics, doses and duration of treatment that need consideration to combat specific bacteria.
Throwing a probiotic cocktail into the drain, without knowing more about what exactly I was doing, did not work for me. I learned enough to know I don't know enough.0 -
OK, I know you're too lazy busy to read books, so here's Brain Maker in a nutshell:
1) Probiotics. Basically anything fermented.
2) Low-carb. You know how to do this.
3) Wine, Tea, Coffee, and Chocolate.
4) Prebiotics. Fiber from chicory, artichoke, garlic, onion, leeks, jicama.
5) Drink filtered water.
6) Fast. 24-72 hours. 4+ times a year.0 -
OK, I know you're too lazy busy to read books, so here's Brain Maker in a nutshell:
1) Probiotics. Basically anything fermented.
2) Low-carb. You know how to do this.
3) Wine, Tea, Coffee, and Chocolate.
4) Prebiotics. Fiber from chicory, artichoke, garlic, onion, leeks, jicama.
5) Drink filtered water.
6) Fast. 24-72 hours. 4+ times a year.
Sounds good. I actually drink distilled water, but only on my fasts. But one gallon is only .97 cents and could last me two days.
I'll google the book too. When I travel by plane, I could read it....
Thank you Wab!
Dan0 -
Considering that I can pinpoint some of my biggest signs of Insulin Resistance back to childhood (I can think of stuff from about 8-10 that fits IR), and I know I got very, very ill (had to be hospitalized briefly, if I recall) and had a ridiculous amount of scary antibiotics, I think that this would make a lot of sense for me, personally. It wasn't long after being that ill that I started having menstrual cycles, either, so I wonder what all the antibiotics did?
In fact, when my young daughter had to have antibiotics for recurring ear infections, we quickly discovered that her body did not like them (yeast infections), and so she took acidophilus from then on, and never had the issue recur. She ended up having tubes put in several months later because I refused to have her on antibiotics chronically. I wonder if I helped prevent or delay some of the problems I have for her - because at 15 now, she has absolutely NONE of the problems/issues that I had at the same age.
I'm started somewhat doing this same type of things. I'm really keen to trying naturally fermenting some pickles, considering my gallbladderless digestive system does not always appreciate the vinegared ones, but I've done Kombucha and barrel-cured sauerkraut so far. No bad reactions to either. I've debated the milk kefir and water kefir grains, but they required an outlay cost, whereas Kombucha brewing started with tea, sugar, and a donated starter and culture... Not much outlay. I've got recipes to make my own Kimchi, but the napa cabbage here has not been pretty enough to try it. I found some at a Korean market a few weeks ago, but I wasn't able to get it then....
I tend to shy away from soy for hormonal reasons, so things like Miso are out for me.
I can't tell you if it was mostly my ketogenic diet or the 2 months worth of Kombucha, but my latest bloodwork showed a drop in fasting glucose from 92 to 85 and in fasting insulin from 7.1 to 5.8. The previous drops with just low carb dieting were from 90 to 92 (so mild increase) and 7.6 to 7.1, respectively...during the same length of time.
A1c stayed steady this time at 5.1, but from October of 2014 to April of 2015, it dropped from 5.3 to 5.1...0 -
- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then?
I would say that people didn't sit around all day then. You had to walk everywhere, you had to work pretty hard just to keep warm and fed, there were no electronics to sit in front of for entertainment, etc etc.
I agree, but exercise is not a primary mover for weight loss. Its what we eat that is more important...
Dan
Keep in mind people were poorer then. Fat people were rich people who could afford to eat. It was desirable to be fat because it was a status symbol. Larger families also contributed - you had a set amount of food to feed a set amount of people - you didnt get to run to walmart if you were short something or had more people than expected.
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I am surprised at how much my 'taste' for fermented foods grows with the increase in fermented food in my diet. I used to detest the sour flavour of kombucha & sauerkraut but the more I have it the more I crave it! I started by adding a spoon if kraut juice to soup and worked up to adding kraut to soup. Now I enjoy it on its own. Yeast in our gut tells our brain to eat more carbs so perhaps as the good bacteria kills off/replaces it those sweet cravings are quieted.0
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Dan: I suggest you might want to read some of the chapters researched and written by Dr. Tim O'shea. He's a doctor (a Chiro who also has a veterinary pracctice). He teaches continuing education classes for other doctors from all walks of life. Here is a link to his "Chapters" section:
http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/chapters/
He goes MUCH further with what you are saying and I believe much of it too. Here is just a partial list of the chapters I think you will find interesting if you read them:
History of Vaccines
Hydration & Dehydration: Two Litres a Day
Enzymes: The Key to Longevity
Autism Detox Protocol
Hydrolyzed Collagen
Journey to the Center of Your Colon
Antioxidants
Expel: 100% natural colon detox supplement
Flora – The Forgotten Component of Detox
Oral Chelation
Minerals
New West Diet (I don't agree 100% with his New West Diet because having found LCHF I know I would not be able to follow his New West Diet simply from the standpoint of the physical pain I would personally eperience via reintroduced carbs, etc.)
Allergies: The Threshold of Reactivity
Genetically Modified Foods: a Short Introduction
Sugar: The Sweet Thief of Life
Chelation of Chemtrails and Vaccines: Your Only Option?
The Three Attributes of Water
To the Cancer Patient: Natural Cures vs Traditional – New Updated!
To the Heart Patient
Death By Treadmill
The Doors of Perception: Why Americans Will Believe Almost Anything
The Post-Antibiotic Age
The Magic Bean
Airport X-Ray: Educate Before You Radiate
Andrew Wakefield: Lesson in Ethics
The Global Mythology of AIDS
Raw Milk
Smallpox: Bringing a Dead Disease Back to Life
Autism and Vaccines
Autism and Mercury
Autism 2005
Every Woman Needs To Read This Chapter Now
ADD: A Designer Disease
Natural Whole Food Vitamins: Ascorbic Acid Is Not Vitamin C
Water
Alternative Lite
New Agendas in American Dentistry
He's got a ton more chapters available to read but I have not read them all. I have read most of the ones listed above.0 -
I just bought a copy of Gut by Guilia Enders (who is female) and so far, it is an easy read -- she has written it in a fun style with cute diagrams, so not a heavy slog to get through. Not far into it yet, though. Seems to be saying much the same stuff I have heard/read from David Perlmutter.
re: fermented foods, I make kefir once a week and use it in smoothies. It is low carb. Bought the powdered grains from iherb.com --Yogourmet brand. Just heat the milk to near boiling (82 degrees C, I use a meat thermometer), let cool to around 25 degrees C, then mix in the grains -- the Fahrenheit temps are also on the kefir box. After about 24 hours at room temperature, it should firm up into a yogurt like consistency. Then I scoop out about a cupful in a jar, to use as starter for the next batch, store it in the fridge. The rest gets used up through the week, also stored in the fridge. It does take perseverance to remember to make it every week, but it isn't hard.
I also eat nuka pickles every day, which are veggies stuck into a bed of rice bran that is allowed to ferment. Over 24 hours, the veg pick up the microbes and taste a bit pickled. Not to everyone's taste but my hubby is Japanese and he loves them (and does all the work ). I am used to them now, even like some, especially the turnips! This blog is detailed in the how-to for anyone who is ambitious. http://www.gardenbetty.com/2014/08/how-to-make-nukadoko-fermented-rice-bran-bed-for-pickling/
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- If you look at pictures of people in 1800's, early 1900's, you just don't see morbidly obese people. What's changed since then?
I would say that people didn't sit around all day then. You had to walk everywhere, you had to work pretty hard just to keep warm and fed, there were no electronics to sit in front of for entertainment, etc etc.
I agree, but exercise is not a primary mover for weight loss. Its what we eat that is more important...
Dan
And don't forget the HUGE increase in consumption of sugar and refined carbohydrates in that time frame. That cannot be discounted if you're looking for causative agents. And while exercise is not the primary mover in weight loss it cannot be discounted completely as a factor.
If the gut microbiome is a large factor in this historically it was joined in a perfect storm with many other factors.
I will follow research and studies with great interest, but for me the jury is still way out.
I think we all hold out hope for a 'magic bullet ', but I still think I health must be a combination of many things. Even the so called miracle drugs in our past didn't keep us from being unhealthy by wrong choices. I doubt fixing our gut bacteria will ever make Krispy Kreme a healthful option. :-)0 -
The people that agree with you should be enough! Begin the revolution! Lol!0
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s my "first, sobriety unethical t, forgive
Ym!!!
I'm askingfor whatever Lal0 -
s my "first, sobriety unethical t, forgive
Ym!!!
I'm askingfor whatever Lal
@Karlottap - I think something happened to your post!
Birth method is also a factor - with more caesarians, babies aren't getting the benefit of their mothers' gut bacteria which they would normally come into contact with through vaginal birth.
My husband suffers from IBS and I am convinced that if we could somehow get some "better" bacteria into him, he would do better. He isn't LCHF, but is a lot lower carb than before on the days we share meals.0 -
Interesting concepts. From all of you. I m ok with yogurt and sauerkraut, pickles, but the other stuff made my tongue curl..... However I just read a book, my doc suggested I read. Especially those with the sweet metabolic syndrome. I have it. Anyway it's called the METABOLIC STORM. By a doc from Seattle WA. Fascinating. You can read a few page on Amazon. She indicated our weight is not our fault and we aserbated our condition by the crash diets strict calorie diets, etc. check it out. I'd tell the lady doc,'s name, but it's 2:30 am and I'm hitting the hay.0
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I know for one thing I can lose weight much better when I'm at the cottage. I live off the grid out there. No water, no hydro no easy heat. So pretty much back in time You want a good day You get up have a coffee. Light your stove then fill the wood box. Haul water for whatever even to flush toilet if you don't want to use the out house. And i'm fortunate to have a lake not far. So I can some how relate to the why our ancestors were not overweight.
See you Lighter.0 -
Probiotics are a very "gray" area in terms of proven cause & effect...the color gray is always interesting & controversial.
I will say there are no detrimental adverse drug reactions other than say diarrhea or increased BM frequency.
Because of such, I have no opposition on recommending or deterring people from using...(sigh) always blame things on drugs0 -
Ben Greenfield tweeted out a study today that found that whether you do better on a low carb or high carb diet may have a genetic component (sorry I don't have a link). I think gut microbiota has an effect, but the genetics and lifestyle factors probably have a large impact as well.0
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Probiotics are a very "gray" area in terms of proven cause & effect...the color gray is always interesting & controversial.
I will say there are no detrimental adverse drug reactions other than say diarrhea or increased BM frequency.
Because of such, I have no opposition on recommending or deterring people from using...(sigh) always blame things on drugs
Actually, adding Kombucha has had quite the opposite effect on me. Having no gallbladder, I tended to alternate between BM that were way way too loose and bile/acidic or way way too hard and difficult to pass.
Since I have added the Kombucha daily, my stools have become firm, consistently, but easier to pass. I still have that the occasional loose reaction to foods (vinegar and coconut oil do not like each other in my digestive tract), maybe 2-3 times in 2 months.
I didn't seem to notice any major reactions from the sauerkraut, but it was heated.
Recently, I've finally had some of my own home-brewed Kombucha finally be fermented and flavored and ready to drink, and it is so much more noticeable and better tasting and all, than the store brand stuff I was drinking that's pretty good...
I strongly recommend anyone try it for a week, but start slowly, and understand that it's an acquired taste... Myself, I'm in love with it - while my fiance cannot stand even the smell of it! lol0 -
I've had to take 5 doses of anitbiotics this year, and every single time I take them I don't lose weight and feel like crap.
There is also things to factor in such as how you were born (c-section birthed babies don't get a much needed dose of bacteria from mum on the way out), how you were fed as a baby (breast milk versus formula, how early you were weaned onto solids, the cells in your gut remain spaced widely until about 6 months of age), all sorts of interesting stuff that I think changes how your gut works. Some it's too late to fix, I guess, I don't exactly want to go back to my mum and ask for some of her vaginal secretions (I was born by c-section).0 -
I've had to take 5 doses of anitbiotics this year, and every single time I take them I don't lose weight and feel like crap.
There is also things to factor in such as how you were born (c-section birthed babies don't get a much needed dose of bacteria from mum on the way out), how you were fed as a baby (breast milk versus formula, how early you were weaned onto solids, the cells in your gut remain spaced widely until about 6 months of age), all sorts of interesting stuff that I think changes how your gut works. Some it's too late to fix, I guess, I don't exactly want to go back to my mum and ask for some of her vaginal secretions (I was born by c-section).
LOL! But we can repair things now... It's never too late to fix... It might just take longer, be a harder process...0 -
I've had to take 5 doses of anitbiotics this year, and every single time I take them I don't lose weight and feel like crap.
There is also things to factor in such as how you were born (c-section birthed babies don't get a much needed dose of bacteria from mum on the way out), how you were fed as a baby (breast milk versus formula, how early you were weaned onto solids, the cells in your gut remain spaced widely until about 6 months of age), all sorts of interesting stuff that I think changes how your gut works. Some it's too late to fix, I guess, I don't exactly want to go back to my mum and ask for some of her vaginal secretions (I was born by c-section).
re: your last line... The latest proven thing for C. Difficile is a fecal transplant which contains healthy gut bacteria. A study I read on Medscape several months ago. Here's a quote:
"Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) appears effective and relatively safe for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection (CDI), but there is too little evidence to draw reliable conclusions about use of the procedure for refractory or initial CDI, a new systematic review suggests.
Dimitri Drekonja, MD, from the Minneapolis Veterans Affairs Health Care System, Minnesota, and colleagues published the results of their review in the May 5 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. Despite the overall low quality of the studies, the authors emphasize the importance of the large positive effect of FMT in the RCTs and in the case-series studies. FMT was successful in 85% of recurrent CDI and 55% of refractory CDI compared with 30% to 80% success rates for medical therapies."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/844259#vp_1
So you never know, something could come of a vaginal secretion transplant in the future. Life is strange.
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canadjineh wrote: »I've had to take 5 doses of anitbiotics this year, and every single time I take them I don't lose weight and feel like crap.
There is also things to factor in such as how you were born (c-section birthed babies don't get a much needed dose of bacteria from mum on the way out), how you were fed as a baby (breast milk versus formula, how early you were weaned onto solids, the cells in your gut remain spaced widely until about 6 months of age), all sorts of interesting stuff that I think changes how your gut works. Some it's too late to fix, I guess, I don't exactly want to go back to my mum and ask for some of her vaginal secretions (I was born by c-section).
re: your last line... The latest proven thing for C. Difficile is a fecal transplant which contains healthy gut bacteria. A study I read on Medscape several months ago. Here's a quote:
"Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) appears effective and relatively safe for recurrent Clostridium difficile infection (CDI), but there is too little evidence to draw reliable conclusions about use of the procedure for refractory or initial CDI, a new systematic review suggests.
Dimitri Drekonja, MD, from the Minneapolis Veterans Affairs Health Care System, Minnesota, and colleagues published the results of their review in the May 5 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. Despite the overall low quality of the studies, the authors emphasize the importance of the large positive effect of FMT in the RCTs and in the case-series studies. FMT was successful in 85% of recurrent CDI and 55% of refractory CDI compared with 30% to 80% success rates for medical therapies."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/844259#vp_1
So you never know, something could come of a vaginal secretion transplant in the future. Life is strange.
I read about them a couple years ago and the procedure. I sent the info to a person I knew that had Crohn's disease. I don't think she tried it, (its a mind thing), but the success rate was so much higher with the transplant ~ than all the medicines they (conventional doctors) came up with. It works for many of those types of disorders, IBS, C-dif and many others.
Dan0
This discussion has been closed.