keto stix finally turned neutral
nvmomketo
Posts: 12,019 Member
It took over 4 months, but my keto stix will now no longer give me a positive reading. I ran out about a month ago and just recently bought some again and I can no longer get a positive reading. Bummer.
I know it's normal and that the body stops wasting ketones in urine after a time, but it's still disappointing. It was nice being "sure" that I was doing this right. It was a little rush of satisfaction every time I had a positive. LOL Oh well.
I'll check once in a while, or after a fast to see if it changes again.
I know it's normal and that the body stops wasting ketones in urine after a time, but it's still disappointing. It was nice being "sure" that I was doing this right. It was a little rush of satisfaction every time I had a positive. LOL Oh well.
I'll check once in a while, or after a fast to see if it changes again.
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I'm not sure where the idea originated that we stop wasting ketones after some period of time, but I'm not aware of any evidence that it's true.
The best studies of ketones come from fasting studies in the 60's and 70's. Some of those lasted a couple months, and those subjects kept peeing out ketones.
Here's one you might like. Arctic sledgers in the 60's. 11 men studied for 7 months. They kept peeing out ketones for all 7 months.
https://legacy.bas.ac.uk/documents/bas_bulletins/bulletin20_06.pdf
Anyway, levels vary throughout the day and depend on activity, eating, etc. Definitely try again after a fast and see what you get.0 -
I haven't ever seen a negative. I thought it would at least go down to small at this point 6 months later, but the only time it ever has is when I had more carbs or was over hydrated.0
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One of the articles I read the other day said that over time you start passing a different type of ketones that are not detectable by the test strips. There are 3 types and the strips only detect one type. Something about acetoacetate ... that's all I've got.
I've read so many articles in the past week since I'm new to the group that I forget which article it was though. 0 -
macchiatto wrote: »One of the articles I read the other day said that over time you start passing a different type of ketones that are not detectable by the test strips. There are 3 types and the strips only detect one type. Something about acetoacetate ... that's all I've got. I've read so many articles in the past week since I'm new to the group that I forget which article it was though.
I know I've seen information that said something along these lines too. That basically you should expect to see lower levels on the pee strips or even, nothing at all if you're not producing so much that there's spillage into the urine. I was under the impression that once well fat adapted, this was just an expected thing. However, I personally haven't seen it in my own results. I tend to test about once a week now just out of curiosity but I did test a bit more frequently before. I was always curious how later in the day would compare to first thing in the morning and stuff like that. In my experience I've always been moderate or large, mostly moderate, except if I was on a drink ALL the water kick and therefore, super hydrated.
I don't know if it's just one of those things that varies from person to person or at different carb levels (which does make sense) and of course with different hydration levels.0 -
The strips do detect AcAc, blood tests typically detect BOHB, and the breath tests detect acetone.
All three are always produced, but the relative quantities may change with "adaptation."
Pop-quiz: can anybody define "adaptation?" Anybody? A show of hands, please.
OK, one of the many aspects of adaptation may be that the muscles start taking up AcAc, but they don't utilize it for fuel. Instead, it gets converted to BOHB, which is then utilized by the brain.
The brain is ALWAYS the main consumer of ketones. That's why your body makes them -- to feed your brain. The brain's energy requirements are relatively constant, so the level of consumption shouldn't change much.
Why do we continue to pee out ketones? I'm not sure the question has been studied. But ketones are acid, and if they build up in the blood, that can lead to acidosis, which is a Bad Thing.
Production is only loosely regulated, so it may be that the kidneys continue to dump them to regulate blood pH. Normally that's done with an alkaline buffer, but the acidity of the ketones may exhaust or limit our buffering capacity, so we pee them out to lower blood levels.0 -
Thanks for the info. Maybe my carb creep is more than I thought and I am going out of, or am already out of ketosis.
Now that you say it @wabmester, I can't remember reading any scientific articles on ketones no longer being excreted... I guess I've just seen it on the web. Well, no I feel not too smart. LOL I need to do more reading. Thanks for the article.
I've had a BPC with a 1/4 scoop of protein powder today. I'll fast for the rest of the day and see what tomorrow says. I'll try to build up a sweat at basketball practice (I coach) tonight too. If it is still neutral, I'll try another fast on Wednesday night into Thursday. I have some inlaws staying with me so I need to fast when they are not around as much so I don't have to deal with the disapproval when I cook a big meal and won't eat it with them. My company is vegetarian so this week is a challenge for me, a LCHF gluten-free cook. LOL
My calories have been about 500 more than normal for about four weeks -2000. I am at a maintenace caloric level. That could be part of it. I'll log my foods, or lach there of, more carefully for while.
Anyway, if I can eventually gets some positive keto stix readings then I KNOW I can't let my carbs get over 30g on a fairly regular basis like I have been because it kicks me out of ketosis.
If I can't make a positive reading after on and off fasting, almost zero carb, and consuming low calories (<1400) for the rest of the week, then I'll just come back and bug you guys for more information.
Thanks. I appreciate how you all are always willing to help. 0 -
Mine are nearly always really high and after almost two months on the plan I was kind of worried that it should go down.0
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[curmudgeon mode]
When I was a kid, the only people using the internet were scientists and engineers, so the veracity of the information was pretty good. Then AOL happened, and the internet was never the same.
[/curmudgeon mode]
You guys are pioneers. Probably the first generation to voluntarily subject yourselves to long-term ketosis. You and your ketostix will provide a lot of good data someday and fix the wrong information that currently lives on the net. I salute you! 0 -
It kinda seems like it might be interesting to chart it on a daily basis, first thing in the morning and mid-day at minimum. Along with what was eaten, it could be quite interesting to watch for trends. More so in someone that just started out.
I kinda wish I had done that now. I'm becoming a data geek!0 -
Pioneers! Pioneer data geeks. Excellent.
I will do the three times per day measurements. Why not, eh? I wish I'd weighed this morning and I would include that too.
I'll come back and post results and food at the end of each day this week - just for fun.0 -
Pioneers! Pioneer data geeks. Excellent.
I will do the three times per day measurements. Why not, eh? I wish I'd weighed this morning and I would include that too.
I'll come back and post results and food at the end of each day this week - just for fun.
Awesome! I love to see the fluctuations and try to decifer some reasoning.0 -
I have been back on Keto since March this year. My carbs are under 15g, and my fat is 75 to 80% of my calories so I'm definitely in ketosis, however the last two weeks I'm showing not even a hint of pink on the test strip.0
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EbonyDahlia wrote: »I have been back on Keto since March this year. My carbs are under 15g, and my fat is 75 to 80% of my calories so I'm definitely in ketosis, however the last two weeks I'm showing not even a hint of pink on the test strip.
Under 15 and nothing, eh? Huh. No doubt about ketosis at that level of carbs. Mine have crept up though so I'm not sure about mine. Well, I'll know in a few days I guess.
My blood glucose has plummeted today. I'm prediabetic and my fasting BG has been in the prediabetic range, on and off, for over a month. It's super annoying. During the day my numbers are fine (normal).
I checked my BG at about 2pm (keto was negative) because I was bit shaky. It felt like my body was noticing the lack of sugars from my carb creep. Anyways. BG was 3.8. I had a bit of coconut oil in my coffee and ignored it even though it was pretty low for me. I rarely go below a 4... lately I rarely go below a 5. LOL
And I am cranky! Could be pms or a combination of hormones and glycogen depletion but, grrrr. I'll put myself to bed early before I share this mood with my poor hubby.
I've probably had about 500 calories worth of calories from coconut oil and a 1/4 serving of protein powder today. That's as close to fasting as I will do now. I have company for a week and I don't want to be too scary of a hostess. 0 -
I really don't know if I have ever been in Ketosis! My strips have never been anything but negative! I must be doing everything wrong. plus I haven't lost weight or gain in weeks now!
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I really don't know if I have ever been in Ketosis! My strips have never been anything but negative! I must be doing everything wrong. plus I haven't lost weight or gain in weeks now!
Since my stir turned negative, my weight losses have stopped but I have been eating more so that completely makes sense. I don't think we need to be in ketosis to lose weight, but it makes it easier for me, possibly because I am eating less and my appetite is down.
We need to come with instruction manuals.0 -
I didn't exactly fast yesterday. I guess I could call it a fat fast. I had around 400-500 calories from fat in coffee and broth.
I think I was out of ketosis or it was very mild. When I cut calories and just had fat i was thirsty, loving salt and I am cranky. Not quite my norm. I was also quite shaky mid day when my blood glucose was low, although after playing basketball my BG was lower but I felt fine (beyond complaining hips).
November 10
7:00 am - keto negative - 158.8lbs. - BG 5.9
2:00 pm. - keto negative - 157.8 lbs. - BG 3.9 (shaky, cranky)
10:00 pm. - keto small - 156.6. - BG 3.5. (bit cranky)
November 11
7:00. - keto small - 155.0 lbs. - BG 4.9. ( my BG is always higher in the morning, which is problem when my BG is usually higher)
I don't usually weigh so often but i was curious about water weight. it looks like i lost close to 4 lbs of water weight yesterday. Well, probably 3 lbs because the 158.8 was after coffee and with jeans and a sweater on, and my weight this morning was just pj's.
I'll keep updating for a few days, but it looks like I was in mild ketosis or out. I guess I can't do 30 g of carbs regularly and stay in ketosis. No more big snacks of nuts and coconut, or snap peas and cheese dip. Mmmmmm, snap peas and cheese...0 -
Good data! I assume the BG spike is due to cortisol (dawn effect). Ketone production would probably stop when that happens, but ketones in the urine will obviously lag behind blood levels.
Those afternoon and evening BG levels are LOW, telling you that your brain is definitely getting flooded by ketones.
It turns out Jimmy Moore logged his blood and urine levels for 60 days, so we can see how they correlate:
Edit: it looks like he kept tracking for at least 90 days:
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-n1-experiments-nutritional-ketosis-day-61-90/15125
He kept tracking blood ketones for about a year, but I think 90 days is as long as he tracked urine.
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-n1-experiments-nutritional-ketosis-day-301-330/181950 -
Good data! I assume the BG spike is due to cortisol (dawn effect). Ketone production would probably stop when that happens, but ketones in the urine will obviously lag behind blood levels.
Those afternoon and evening BG levels are LOW, telling you that your brain is definitely getting flooded by ketones.
It turns out Jimmy Moore logged his blood and urine levels for 60 days, so we can see how they correlate:
Edit: it looks like he kept tracking for at least 90 days:
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-n1-experiments-nutritional-ketosis-day-61-90/15125
He kept tracking blood ketones for about a year, but I think 90 days is as long as he tracked urine.
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/jimmy-moores-n1-experiments-nutritional-ketosis-day-301-330/18195
Wow. Those correlate better than I would have expected. Thanks @wabmester!0 -
Very interesting data. I'm noticing the blood glucose is low when urine ketones are measurable. So, it makes sense that you were not in ketosis at the previous carb level and we're having more insulin then to deal with the bg. I just listened to a Jimmy Moore podcast from the low carb cruise, (I can't remember the speakers name, I'll have to check) but he mentioned the protective effects that ketones have on the brain during low blood glucose episodes. He even mentioned studies where the bg was well below coma level (induced purposely) and how the person was still conscious and showing no signs of distress due to the presence of ketones. It was nuts!0
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I'm still very low calories or fat fasting; eating one meal in a day. Keo stix are staying positive now, and my blood glucose keeps dropping quite low so I think I was definitely out of keto. I'm just surprised 30-50g of carbs per day would have bumped me out like that.
For comparison:
BG of 3.3 is about a 60,
BG of 3.9 is 70,
BG of 4.4 is 80,
BG of 5.0 is 90,
BG of 5.6 is 100. (A fasting BG of 5.6 is considered prediabetic up here (Alberta, Canada)
BG of 6.1 is 110
November 10 = No meals, just coconut oil
7:00 am - keto negative - 158.8l bs. - BG 5.9
2:00 pm. - keto negative - 157.8 lbs. - BG 3.9 (shaky, cranky)
10:00 pm. - keto small - 156.6 lbs. - BG 3.5. (bit cranky) Played basketball from 7:30-8:00pm
November 11 = Just coconut oil until dinner (7oz meatloaf, 1 cup broccoli with cheese at 7:00 pm)
7:00 am - keto small - 155 lbs - BG 4.9
10:00 am - BG 5.7 (after BPC)
12:00 pm - keto trace - 157.8 lbs - BG 4.8
3:00 pm - keto trace - 157.8 lbs - BG 4.2
10:00 pm - keto trace - 156.6 lbs - BG 4.9
November 12 = Just coconut oil until dinner (4 oz burger patty with cheese and mayo, 1/2 cup broccoli with cheese @ 5:30pm)
7:00 am - keto trace - 155 lbs - BG 4.8
4:00 pm - keto small - 156.4 lbs - BG 3.9 (feeling shaky)
6:30 pm - BG 4.4 (felt better as soon as I ate)
10:00 pm -
I'll do one more day of low calories (<600kcal) and then I'll go back to 1500 or so. I'll get in some exercise again tomorrow and see what that does.
Kind of interesting that when I am low in sugars (3's) my ketones go up. I used to frequently go hypoglycemic a couple of hours after meals up until a few months ago when I changed my diet. When I was firmly into ketosis, after that first week or so on a vLCHF diet, I never experienced that shakiness anymore. Now it's back.
Ketones drop to trace when my BG goes up too (Nov 11 @ 10am).0 -
I didn't know we were supposed to pee on strips0
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LOL It isn't mandatory. 0
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Is it possible you were getting more carbs than you thought you were? Could measuring have been off? Or what was the source of the carbs you were getting at 30-50g?
You haven't had anymore bg in the pre-diabetic range since going lower, so it seems safe to assume you were in that range much more consistently before, therefore your body didn't really need to make ketones, at least not many I guess. But that seems crazy at such a low carb range.0 -
Ketones drop to trace when my BG goes up too (Nov 11 @ 10am).
Probably why Phinney and Volek say that 50g carbs should work for most people, but there are carb intolerant people who may need to go lower.
By restricting carbs to 50g, you're creating a glucose deficit of maybe 100g/d. That can only be made up by ketones, glycogenolysis, or gluconeogenesis. So if your glycogen is depleted, that only leaves protein as the source of your high blood glucose.
IIRC, P&V say to first try reducing carbs, and if that doesn't work, try reducing protein.
Fasting and exercise will boost ketones too, of course. And exercise should help on the muscle uptake side of the equation as well.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Is it possible you were getting more carbs than you thought you were? Could measuring have been off? Or what was the source of the carbs you were getting at 30-50g?
You haven't had anymore bg in the pre-diabetic range since going lower, so it seems safe to assume you were in that range much more consistently before, therefore your body didn't really need to make ketones, at least not many I guess. But that seems crazy at such a low carb range.
I was still eating low carb foods but I was adding in a lot more veggies like snap peas and (a few) carrots. I wasn't logging so it is definitely possible that I was over 50 g, but I don't think it was much if I was.
Over the last month I was eating more I would eat fairly normal but then I ate in the evening while watching tv. That was my highest carb intake, often a 1/4 to 3/4 cup of macadamia nuts or almonds, and a couple of TBS of coconut or xylitol sweetened chocolate chips. That last snack was between 300 and 800 calories. Bad, I know....
Not surprisingly my FBG is usually high the following morning, often a 5.6-6.0. Actually, my FBG is high is I eat ANYTHING at night. Even pork rinds and cheese, or a fatty pepperoni stick.
My BG during the day is almost always lower than my FBG. Dawn phenomenom? IDK. It seems wrong because it only happens WHEN I eat before bed. Whatever it is, it's pretty consistent.
Anyways, my other meals last month would be a couple of BPC, and a lunch and dinner of a meat, cheese, and a veggie. No sign of hypoglycemia, but I ate every 3 hours or so.0 -
Ketones drop to trace when my BG goes up too (Nov 11 @ 10am).
Probably why Phinney and Volek say that 50g carbs should work for most people, but there are carb intolerant people who may need to go lower.
By restricting carbs to 50g, you're creating a glucose deficit of maybe 100g/d. That can only be made up by ketones, glycogenolysis, or gluconeogenesis. So if your glycogen is depleted, that only leaves protein as the source of your high blood glucose.
IIRC, P&V say to first try reducing carbs, and if that doesn't work, try reducing protein.
Fasting and exercise will boost ketones too, of course. And exercise should help on the muscle uptake side of the equation as well.
My protein is pretty moderate. I have it set at 25%, which is about 89g, but I struggle to get it over 80g (about 20%). I started using a protein powder about 2 months ago for a small morning protein boost. I don't want to let the protein slide too low. I make sure it stays above 70g.
Exercise... regular exercise... It's like the LCHF diet. I circled it for months but I didn't want to commit. I know I need to get more active but but but BUT!
I just need to accept the fact that my body is messed up enough that I need to do it. Now I need to find that fine line between beneficial exercise and something that won't cause me joint pain for days. I had fun at basketball a few days ago but I'm still limping and probably will be for a few more days.
Aging is not a nice reward for being active in my youth! 0 -
I don't know how tall you are, but I'm a 6'1" guy, and I target about 90g protein, which is sometimes a struggle for me to hit.
I refuse to eat protein powder just because I'm pretty sure none of my ancestors ate that stuff.
Ketosis evolved to spare protein. At 20g/d carbs, you may only need to burn 10-20g/d protein to meet minimal glucose needs.
If you don't need 80g/d for muscle maintenance, the excess protein has to go somewhere. Not many options other that making glucose out of it.
I'd experiment with skipping the protein powder for a few days.0 -
I'm only 5'8", so you may be right... again. I have been skipping the protein powder the last few days, so it won't be a big deal to continue on with that.
When I first started a vLCHF diet my protein average was a bit lower (65-80g) and my BG was definitely better... This could be worth experimenting with! That RDI of 0.8g X body mass in kg would put me at 0.8g X 70 = 56g; and if we add on a bit for glucose production, I may well have been at a better number before I increased my protein.
Thanks again, @wabmester! You've been VERY generous with your time. I appreciate it.0 -
Just for my own comparison - adding data. No need to comment.
November 10 = No meals, just coconut oil ~500 kcal
7:00 am - keto negative - 158.8l bs. - BG 5.9
2:00 pm. - keto negative - 157.8 lbs. - BG 3.9 (shaky, cranky)
10:00 pm. - keto small - 156.6 lbs. - BG 3.5. (bit cranky) Played basketball from 7:30-8:00pm
November 11 = Just coconut oil until dinner (7oz meatloaf, 1 cup broccoli with cheese at 7:00 pm) ~880 kcal
7:00 am - keto small - 155 lbs - BG 4.9
10:00 am - BG 5.7 (after BPC)
12:00 pm - keto trace - 157.8 lbs - BG 4.8
3:00 pm - keto trace - 157.8 lbs - BG 4.2
10:00 pm - keto trace - 156.6 lbs - BG 4.9
November 12 = Just coconut oil until dinner (4 oz burger patty with cheese and mayo, 1/2 cup broccoli with cheese @ 5:30pm) ~ 810 kcal
7:00 am - keto trace - 155 lbs - BG 4.8
4:00 pm - keto small - 156.4 lbs - BG 3.9 (feeling shaky)
6:30 pm - BG 4.4 (felt better as soon as I ate)
9:00 pm - keto trace - BG 4.1 (checked because was feeling a bit weak)
10:00 pm - keto trace - 155 lbs - BG 4.9 (so hungry but didn't snack before bed)
November 13 = Just BPC until later in day
6:30 am - keto small - 153 lbs - BG 4.0 (low FBG for me, no longer hungry)
Well, there's that water weight we tend to lose when dropping carbs. I've gone down about 5lbs in 3 days. I'm not eating at a sustainable level (500, 880, and 810 kcal) but it definitely isn't the 15,000+ kcal deficit I would need to lose fat. I've maybe really lost a pound of fat (and some protein/muscle).
I'll go back to a normal 1500 kcal day tomorrow, or more since I am going out to eat tonight and tomorrow, and then having family over for a turkey (mock Xmas) dinner on sunday. I'll keep carbs below 20g, go carnivore a few days a week, and not force my protein high with protein powder (keep it above 60g at the bare minimum). That should keep me in ketosis, and more importantly, keep my BG lower than it has been the last few weeks.0
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