Dr. Tim Noakes facing censure for recommending LCHF

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  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited November 2015
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    The ancestory thing is interesting. Luckily my ancestors were northern and eastern European where farming didn't come into the picture until the Romans introduced it a few thousand years ago, so I figure that I must be on the right track. ;)
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
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    It's entirely possible that having a grain eating ancestry and heightened ability to break down starches quickly is actually a health deficit when surplus food is readily available. Although I felt generally good on a moderately low carb diet, I did not feel good on a high carb diet. I don't know my AMY gene profile. Some of my ancestors were European, and some were big game hunters until nearly the end of the 19th century.
  • Sabine_Stroehm
    Sabine_Stroehm Posts: 19,263 Member
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    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    My endocrinologist told me to eat leaner meats and more fruits and veggies. I'm going against her advice with a lchf det.
    kirkor wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I know a ketogenic diet, and IF, lowers growth hormone

    Fasting increases growth hormone, not lowers it:
    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

    Interesting. I've read the opposite. If I get it retested in the upcoming months, then I guess I'll know how IF and keto affect me.

    Regardless, both approaches limit heavily refined carbs...

    True, but I find a carb is carb (beyond straight sugar and soda) when it comes to controlling my BG. Adding more didn't help me.

    Yup, not disagreeing.
  • bluefish86
    bluefish86 Posts: 842 Member
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    lithezebra wrote: »
    bluefish86 wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    That depends on your ancestry. Different populations have more copies of the AMY1 alpha-amylase gene which facilitates the breakdown of carbohydrates, likely because they have evolved eating more starches.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/

    Even a high carb diet 100,000 years ago wouldn't compare with a high carb, SAD/western diet today due to the absence of highly processed and readily available refined sugars and grains.

    If you think that it's important to eat like your specific ancestors did, or to correlate your copy number with the amount of starch you eat, you could have your genome sequenced!

    I'm sticking with keto, regardless of my ancestors, because it seems to help my hand and neck pain.

    I'm not saying we need to eat exactly what our ancestors ate, but I think it's an important clue explaining why some of us thrive on a low carb diet while others do better with higher carbs.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/30/salivary-carb-breakdown-gene-obesity-study
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
    edited November 2015
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    bluefish86 wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    bluefish86 wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    That depends on your ancestry. Different populations have more copies of the AMY1 alpha-amylase gene which facilitates the breakdown of carbohydrates, likely because they have evolved eating more starches.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/

    Even a high carb diet 100,000 years ago wouldn't compare with a high carb, SAD/western diet today due to the absence of highly processed and readily available refined sugars and grains.

    If you think that it's important to eat like your specific ancestors did, or to correlate your copy number with the amount of starch you eat, you could have your genome sequenced!

    I'm sticking with keto, regardless of my ancestors, because it seems to help my hand and neck pain.

    I'm not saying we need to eat exactly what our ancestors ate, but I think it's an important clue explaining why some of us thrive on a low carb diet while others do better with higher carbs.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/30/salivary-carb-breakdown-gene-obesity-study

    It might be that the people who break down carbs most easily are the ones who do worst on a modern high carb diet. Glucose would get into the bloodstream faster, after all, contributing to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is also an evolutionary adaptation. What people have now in developed countries is insulin resistance that isn't interrupted by periods of scarcity.

  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
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    news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/noakes-hearing-to-continue-in-2016-20151130

    https://biznews.com/health/2015/12/02/tim-noakes-and-legal-dream-team-helping-him-survive-trial-by-ambush-banting-lchf-ketone/

    Looks like we will have to wait until Feb 2016 for the rest of the story. Both the above articles and comments are interesting to me. Hopefully we will learn the true cause for going after Tim Noakes at this point in life.

    Some of links embedded in the articles I found very interesting side stories.
  • camtosh
    camtosh Posts: 898 Member
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    news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/noakes-hearing-to-continue-in-2016-20151130

    https://biznews.com/health/2015/12/02/tim-noakes-and-legal-dream-team-helping-him-survive-trial-by-ambush-banting-lchf-ketone/

    Looks like we will have to wait until Feb 2016 for the rest of the story. Both the above articles and comments are interesting to me. Hopefully we will learn the true cause for going after Tim Noakes at this point in life.

    Some of links embedded in the articles I found very interesting side stories.

    Thanks for the links, Gale. The Biz News one is long but informative. What a surreal world we live in.
  • SamandaIndia
    SamandaIndia Posts: 1,577 Member
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    Stunning story. Thanks for the articles!
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
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    That biznews article was great. Bizarre case.

    CUorydjW4AARNpk.png
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
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    I think the way things are looking putting Tim Noakes on trial may move LCHF to the forefront even in the medical world over time. This could only possibly happen due to all the years of hard work from Banting's time until today.
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
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    Yeah, it's a bit like The Scopes Trial, but in this case the prosecution seems to have a bungling legal team. Not sure it'll be a great platform for scientific evidence given the way they're proceeding.
  • canadjineh
    canadjineh Posts: 5,396 Member
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    Love, love, love the bacon ribbon (but it would look more attractive cooked, lol).
  • Sunny_Bunny_
    Sunny_Bunny_ Posts: 7,140 Member
    edited December 2015
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    Did you guys read the comments?
    This one guy has crazy skills! Here are some things he said in reply to others. I found them quite clever.


    Wikkel Spies
    a day ago
    A raw egg

    Every morning

    A dash of Tobasco 
In a glass

    Bottoms up

    Delicious

    Wikkel Spies
    2 days ago
    Steeped in food antiquity

    And wedded to the past,
    
With guidelines now outdated

    Aspersions freely cast.

    Disorganised – shambolic

    Defines their management,
    
With no regard for cogency

    Disorderly descent
    
Into a state of disarray

    Huge bumbling writ large.

    Left all those in attendance
    
Wondering who’s in charge.
    I went to see real justice

    The hope to see it done

    What did I come away with?

    Emphatically none!!

    Wikkel Spies
    a day ago
    They would have the world believe
    
It's all about that tweet,

    Their goal is more destructive though

    The food they'd have us eat.

    That overdose of sugar
    
Those carbs refined to paste

    Processed junk with every meal

    And all just toxic waste.

    And lurking then behind the mask

    Is jealousy writ large

    Unable to accept the fact

    They're no longer in charge.

    Wikkel Spies
    a day ago
    The problem is obduracy

    It is a baneful force

    The groupies of old Ancel Keys

    Are quite without remorse.

    They would have us all believe

    Their's is the only way
    
Refuse to listen to good sense

    But lead the world astray.

    They have done this all the while

    For forty years - and some

    This hearing is proof positive

    That they are simply dumb.

    Refuse to listen - ever

    Will not concede a point

    The simple truth is obvious

    Their nose is out of joint.

    This guy comes up with brilliant rhymes as replies and I'm over here like
    Roses are red,
    and kinda smelly.
    Bacon is good,
    in my belly

    Lol. I tried...
  • camtosh
    camtosh Posts: 898 Member
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    Yes, this guy is great!
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    lithezebra wrote: »
    @Dragonwolf: since Noakes' tweet read “Baby doesn’t eat the dairy and cauliflower. Just very healthy high fat breast milk. Key is to wean [sic] baby onto LCHF,” it isn't clear what he meant by LCHF. If he was advising against cauliflower, the advice seems excessive.

    That seems insanely out of contex, but given what's there, it sounds like he's talking about a currently exclusively breastfed infant, and discussing weaning strategies as the time approaches. It doesn't look like he's advising against cauliflower at all.
    lithezebra wrote: »
    camtosh wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    kirkor wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I know a ketogenic diet, and IF, lowers growth hormone

    Fasting increases growth hormone, not lowers it:
    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

    Fasting isn't recommended for children. Besides the fact that kids are growing, they're a lot more prone to dehydration than adults, and they may not say anything, or even be able to say anything, if they have a problem.

    fwiw, here is Dr. Jay Wortman's blog post about his 2 healthy kids, raised on lchf: http://www.drjaywortman.com/blog/wordpress/2012/08/24/low-carb-baby-n1-three-year-progress-report/

    He stopped the blogging, but was on the Low Carb cruise last May: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/the-llvlc-show-episode-1029-dr-jay-wortman-2015-low-carb-cruise-lecture/25538

    Like I said, I would want to see multiple studies that show, specifically, that ketones provide adequate energy for growth and development, before I'd put kids on a ketogenic diet, with the exception of children who need a ketogenic diet for seizure control. A few seemingly healthy kids doesn't demonstrate that they're as healthy or as smart as they could be. That doesn't mean that most children wouldn't be a lot healthier on a very low sugar, low to moderate carb diet, rather than the high sugar junk food diet that is so prevalent today.

    I'd like to see multiple studies that show that the USDA recommended diet is safe and healthy for children. Even your "low sugar, low to moderate carb" is not the USDA diet. Even a "good" one is about half from gains, which are by nature often pretty heavily refined (especially to get the recommended amount). The seemingly healthy kids on a high cab diet don't show that they are as healthy or as smart as they could be.

    Also, LCHF is not synonymous with keto. You don't need to be keto to be LCHF. That said, you'll probably want to look at the studies out there about breast fed infants and milk composition, particularly of Indonesian populations. Their high coconut intake leads to higher levels of lauric acid fats in the milk, which are ketogenic. Combined with a sugar content not far off from the MCT assisted keto diet, and odds are good they're living on a fair bit of ketones.

    As for "a few healthy kid," kids with diabetes are often told to reduce their carbs, and there have been entire native and modern populations that lived on very few carbs (the Inuit are far from the only ones), so it's actually far more than a few, but modern medicine and media ignore them, because they don't fit the agenda.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    Some humans in some locations. Ah, the joys of being omnivorous. Ancient diets are all over the map.

    While people close to the equator typically eat higher carb (with a lot of sugar), those to the climate extremes increasingly eat fewer, and what's still available is more often starches.

    I know of about half a dozen populations that were historically very low carb, off the top of my head, but I also know of about half a dozen very high carb populations off the top of my head, and about half a dozen that fall somewhere in between.

    In other words, the evidence for any given diet can really only be applied to the populations in the area, not humanity as a whole.
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
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    Dragonwolf wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    Some humans in some locations. Ah, the joys of being omnivorous. Ancient diets are all over the map.

    While people close to the equator typically eat higher carb (with a lot of sugar), those to the climate extremes increasingly eat fewer, and what's still available is more often starches.

    I know of about half a dozen populations that were historically very low carb, off the top of my head, but I also know of about half a dozen very high carb populations off the top of my head, and about half a dozen that fall somewhere in between.

    In other words, the evidence for any given diet can really only be applied to the populations in the area, not humanity as a whole.

    Those populations that have historically eaten low carb diets may not have been eating ketogenic diets. Arctic diets, for example, have historically been very high in protein, and protein is readily used to make glucose.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
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    lithezebra wrote: »
    Dragonwolf wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    Some humans in some locations. Ah, the joys of being omnivorous. Ancient diets are all over the map.

    While people close to the equator typically eat higher carb (with a lot of sugar), those to the climate extremes increasingly eat fewer, and what's still available is more often starches.

    I know of about half a dozen populations that were historically very low carb, off the top of my head, but I also know of about half a dozen very high carb populations off the top of my head, and about half a dozen that fall somewhere in between.

    In other words, the evidence for any given diet can really only be applied to the populations in the area, not humanity as a whole.

    Those populations that have historically eaten low carb diets may not have been eating ketogenic diets. Arctic diets, for example, have historically been very high in protein, and protein is readily used to make glucose.

    I expect very few ever ate true ketogenic diets with survival as their only goal. Emotional eating was invented after the TV was invented. :)
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
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    lithezebra wrote: »
    Dragonwolf wrote: »
    lithezebra wrote: »
    It is my guess back in history if people ever did eat a very low carb diet that the kids did likewise.

    The idea that our ancestors ate a low carb diet has likely been overstated. Evidence of humans eating grains and starchy tubers goes back more than 100,000 years. However, we're adaptable creatures, and we can thrive on low carb too. I just wouldn't experiment on kids, because their development is too precious. As adults we can try things out on ourselves, and probably do no lasting damage.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm

    Some humans in some locations. Ah, the joys of being omnivorous. Ancient diets are all over the map.

    While people close to the equator typically eat higher carb (with a lot of sugar), those to the climate extremes increasingly eat fewer, and what's still available is more often starches.

    I know of about half a dozen populations that were historically very low carb, off the top of my head, but I also know of about half a dozen very high carb populations off the top of my head, and about half a dozen that fall somewhere in between.

    In other words, the evidence for any given diet can really only be applied to the populations in the area, not humanity as a whole.

    Those populations that have historically eaten low carb diets may not have been eating ketogenic diets. Arctic diets, for example, have historically been very high in protein, and protein is readily used to make glucose.

    I expect very few ever ate true ketogenic diets with survival as their only goal. Emotional eating was invented after the TV was invented. :)

    Keto fixes some of the ills of being able to get far more food than we need, with hardly any physical effort at all.
  • lodro
    lodro Posts: 982 Member
    edited December 2015
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    nvmomketo wrote: »
    The ancestory thing is interesting. Luckily my ancestors were northern and eastern European where farming didn't come into the picture until the Romans introduced it a few thousand years ago, so I figure that I must be on the right track. ;)

    uhm, the romans didn't "introduce farming" in northern and eastern europe. it was there much earlier

    http://sciencenordic.com/how-agriculture-came-scandinavia

    that's 5000 BCE.

    however, interestingly:

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/beads-suggest-culture-blocked-farming-northern-europe?mode=topic&context=49

    and

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-farmers-foragers-kept-genes-themselves