So bloody sick of...
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I'll say again: I can get behind vegetarian low carbers. COMPLETELY. But I don't believe that a keto vegetarian with 20 total carbs is sustainable, or necessary at all.0
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Thank you again, everyone, but I was just looking for ideas as to different recipes and food that would fit within my dietary restrictions - I am not looking to change my dietary restrictions at the current time.
The challenge in responding is that there really are virtually no suggestions anyone can offer that would be responsive to your original request: "Any suggestions for any other lacto-ovo vegetarian keto foods that work well with my macros?"
All of us who have been around the block can see the Mack Truck coming at you (dropping out because the diet is so unpalatable that you can't make yourself eat) - and can see the alternate route you can take to avoid the Mack Truck (doing enough research and/or personal testing to know what is really required for YOU to stay in ketosis so you can maximize your food choices to make the diet more palatable).
You are expressing extreme frustration with "facing another meal" of "Cheese, eggs, butter and coconut oil," and admit to a 1200 calorie deficit yesterday because you could not face the meal. You have also rejected every single option offered except those things you say you can't stand. And, from what you say, you seem to be rejecting them based on an ultraconservative notion that you must stay under 20 total grams of carbs to follow a keto diet - not on how your body is responding to what you are eating. ("This is the keto diet. I didn't make it up, I just follow it!")
It's obviously up to you - but if I was frustrated to point of being unable to eat, I would welcome real information that eating a ketogenic diet (the only barrier you've mentioned) does not require such severe limitations so I could expand my table and make it palatable.0 -
We found "The New Atkins Made Easy" gave a keto vegetarian option and recipes.
However, like the others here, I am a little confused over your application of the diet. Atkins for Vegetarians says:
"If you're a vegetarian, I recommend that you start Atkins in Phase 2 (Balancing), at 20-30 grams of Net Carbs a day so that you can get sufficient protein. Most vegetarian sources of protein also contain carbs, unlike most animal products. ... Induction (should) include nuts and seeds from the start."
Recommended foods include: nuts, seeds (I love hemp seeds), tofu and tofu products, legumes and many different veggies.
On another keto site that I belong to, the vegetarian members (and other members too) all eat to around 50 net carbs daily and are having success at weight loss. They are following Dr Westman at Duke University who recommends protein source at every meal, and 2 cups salad and 1 cup cooked veggies each day with fat added to balance macros.
Do watch your proteins. Too little protein over time will affect your health.
I have found a really good hemp seed recipe at ruled.me; this might meet your macros and protein needs.
I hope you are through the induction phase shortly so that you can add more foods.0 -
Cheese, eggs, butter and coconut oil. My calorie intake is down just because I can't face another meal of these items. I had a 1200 calorie deficit yesterday because I just couldn't make myself eat what I needed to eat. I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian on keto, and my macros are good (usually below 10g total carbs and only 20-25g protein at any particular meal) and I'd like to keep them that way. Any suggestions for any other lacto-ovo vegetarian keto foods that work well with my macros? (5% total carbs, 75% fats, 20% protein). I'm happy on keto otherwise, but man, soooooo sick of these foods!!
I fully understand that being a vegetarian is (for many) more than just a choice of what to eat. I was one myself for close to 30 years too. So I know that it becomes who you are, not just what you eat.
I tried vegetarian keto I was unable to do it, all the foods I really liked to eat were out and what I could eat was not food I particularly liked. It was not sustainable and I felt very much like you do now (and I was aiming for 50g!). It was a difficult decision to start eating meat but my body clearly said it was the right decision for me. I still don't like meat but I eat it every day. I can eat food that I don't like and believe it sustainable because I feel nourished and without cravings and all my health markers have improved. I actually don't think the way I liked food before was healthy, it was just too important a part of my life. Now food is fuel, nourishment and medicine, as it should be. And carbs are treats, just as they should be.
I'm not saying you need to go the same way, you've made clear you're not interested in changing your woe and apparently there are many that DO manage vegetarian keto. I'm just trying to explain that, if you want to succeed you need to find food that gives you that feeling of nourishment because that's the only way your body will not rebel against what you are trying to do. When you "can't face another meal" of the only foods you allow yourself to eat that's a big sign that you need to make some changes. And if, after a few days with such a large calorie deficit you still feel the same and hunger doesn't kick in you're heading for trouble.
But, if you want suggestions and help, you'll need to be a bit more open about the reasoning behind your limitations. What do you want to accomplish? Why are you being this restrict? Why have you chosen those foods as the only you're "allowed"? Why so little protein? Do you have lab tests? Do you have a medical condition that you're trying to solve this way? Are you being accompanied by a doctor or on your own? It may feel like too much to share but, like others said, if we don't understand what you're trying to do and why, it's not possible to make any useful suggestions.
::flowerforyou::0 -
I have to admit that I am a little disturbed to be feeling so under attack by the most recent posters on this thread and am considering leaving the forum. I had assumed that this was a forum that was about helping people achieve their goals, not about getting people to eat the way they assume is correct. Certainly, if there were no ideas to offer in response to my request for suggestions, there was no need to respond to the discussion. At no point did I request that people tell me whether my WOE was okay with them.
Nonetheless, I will try to answer some of the questions that people are posting:- I am not yet completely keto-adapted
- I prefer to stay at 20g total- not net- carbs because I did not start seeing any results until I had lowered my carbs to that level - and this is the level preferred by a great many keto experts, according to my research. I am not following Atkins, so will not be working within an induction phase paradigm. Everyone is different, and apparently, my body responds best to very low carbs. Sucks to be me, no doubt.
- I have no medical conditions to solve; I am completely healthy.
- I feel absolutely no need to obfuscate over the extent to which I have gotten over my eating disorder. I haven't thrown up in ten years. End of story, it's done. I don't lie about this *kitten* - not anymore.
- I do not see a connection between my vegetarianism and bulimia
- I get 80-100g of protein a day; I am not aiming for low protein, I am aiming for moderate protein. In accordance with keto, I aim for no more than 25g of protein at any one meal, so that excess protein is not converted to glucose.
- I am not uninformed about dietary needs; although I have posted about my eating disorder, I have not posted information about the rest of my history, but please rest assured that I have a great deal of knowledge about human nutrition.
- Keto is inherently an extreme way of eating. Vegetarian keto is a bit more restrictive than non-vegetarian keto, but it is only a matter of degrees. This is an experiment. It may not ultimately work, and that's fine. Lots of things don't. I don't need other people telling me what to eat and what not to eat - my body, my choice. I was requesting ideas, not judgement.
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I have to admit that I am a little disturbed to be feeling so under attack by the most recent posters on this thread and am considering leaving the forum. I had assumed that this was a forum that was about helping people achieve their goals, not about getting people to eat the way they assume is correct. Certainly, if there were no ideas to offer in response to my request for suggestions, there was no need to respond to the discussion. At no point did I request that people tell me whether my WOE was okay with them.
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Since I was the last person to reply I suppose I am the "most recent poster". In no way was what I said meant to attack you or your way of eating. I was just trying to help, clearly I didn't so I apologise. This forum is the most helpful and supportive I've ever encountered. That's probably why people were trying to understand the reasons for your request, to understand how best to support you in your goals. As you say, we are all different. I hope your experiment works and you get what you want from keto.
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There is absolutely no judging going on here.
There is concern. Keto can be hard. It's even harder for vegetarians and vegans following it. If we didn't express our concern for your well-being, @fileshiny, we'd just be heartless jerks.
Dragonwolf, Sabine, FIT_Goat, and I are mods of this group. It's our job to keep order and to sometimes express concern where we feel it might be merited.
My post was correcting misinformation that I thought you had. I was just letting you know that you can go a little higher on the carbs. And it was also for any other keto person, vegetarian or regular, who may read this thread in the future. Information is very important. And information that will help someone is even more so.
If you can find your previous thread again, amidst all the mess (I do sincerely wish they'd make the old discussions searchable) in which I gave you some links of recipes and blogs, you should go hunting for ideas. If you can't find it, I've added them to the LaunchPad LC Programs links library under veggie keto. And definitely hit up the reddit subforum for veggie keto. As you can see, though we have veggie ketoers, they must be busy and either not visit as often, or miss these threads because they get buried quickly due to the activeness of this group.
I completely feel you on the food boredom. Even though we aren't all vegetarian, I think all keto-folk have a short period where they are freaking sick and tired of eating keto. But we come to a point where we change our relationship with food and start to view it as merely fuel. Is it fueling us well? Yeah? Well, it's all good. And eventually, through listening to others and looking through a million recipes, we find inspiration and pass that temporary "meh" phase , moving onto "I actually freaking like this food." Or we move on to another WOE if we still don't find it sustainable.
Keto is great for overall health. Weightloss is sometimes a nice bonus. And sometimes it takes longer than we want to see the results we want. I just wanted you to know that you can go higher on the veggie carbs soon.
Maybe you won't see results as fast, but it might be a more enjoyable journey. But it's up to you.
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Yeah, I've been there. Wanting to eat but finding absolutely nothing appealing on the low carb menu. But you know what I did? I switched out my favorite foods for my least favorite and found them appealing. What I mean is I use to hate soup, and shakes. I use to say I prefer to eat my meals and not drink them. But I have found that soups and shakes are actually quite appealing especially if you are tired of eggs and oils and butters. The soups and shakes can hide the fat and eggs so you don't even notice they are there. If there is a style of preparing food that you found you didn't like when you were eating carbs, you might find you like it when your on a LCHF diet.
Pick your favorite low carb vegi and you can make a soup or shake out of it while blending in fats (Can you have whey protein? That will up your protein levels is you need to.). And don't forget the huge number of spices out there. Just add curry to a broth/cream and broccoli soup and you have just made a whole new flavor. The nice thing about soups and shakes is that you don't need to add a lot of the vegis. Just a little and the flavor is there, so you don't need to waste your carbs on the flavor of the soup. You have to experiment to see what you like. I have a cream of chicken soup I really like but you can make a cream of mushroom soup, especially if you use the gourmet mushrooms like oyster or milky mushrooms that have a better mushroom flavor so you don't need to use as many.
OK, I've just made myself hungry. I'm going to make some mushroom soup.
Oh and I've always wanted to tell a vegetarian about the wonders of purslane. It has the most Omega 3 fatty acid you can get. It has more than some fishes have. I grow it on our farm. But you can find it in the wild. It has a very appealing citrus flavor. Like mild lemons. It is popular in Mexico where they use it with eggs like spinach. Look for it at your farmer's market. It is just coming into season here.0 -
I too am in the 'most recent poster" group and I am sorry if you felt attacked. I was trying to help but obviously didn't. I am sorry for that.
Thank you for sharing your answers. It helps to have more knowledge and more context.
This discussion feels a bit like what happens when people who support the food pyramid diet plans come into contact with a keto diet plan. There is complete misunderstanding. However, there is usually a discussion about large meta data studies concerning the pros and cons of a keto adapted diet. And, after kicking around a few study outcomes, if not agreement, then at least an agreement to disagree.
Most of us on this forum have read about nutrition and have an understanding of the positives and some of the possible negatives about our WOE and we are willing to take the perceived risks of continuing on this path. Some of us might pay a price for this; only time will tell. The research that I have studied has convinced me that this WOE is sustainable and most proponents give roughly the same dietary and nutrition advice so that if I follow, I will be well and happy.
The positives we all know well. I know that the 'meat only' challenge would be of great concern for those on the food pyramid diet but this group, odd that we are, express great interest in trying it. And research backs up that we should be doing no harm to ourselves in trying this experiment.
Keto is a restricted way of eating. Vegetarian keto is more restrictive. Your choices have made it more restrictive still. I posted out of concern for your health. I posted out of concern that other vegetarians would feel they would be unable to follow a ketogenic diet when the research says they can.
You know your body and what it needs and this has informed your choice. I will keep an eye out for recipes that might help.0 -
OP, you have restrictions that are pulling in different directions, hence the extreme restriction.I prefer to stay at 20g total- not net- carbs because I did not start seeing any results until I had lowered my carbs to that level - and this is the level preferred by a great many keto experts.
Actually there's some dissidence concerning the carb threshold to get and maintain nutritional ketosis. Many say 20g net. I don't know which keto experts you refer to. But, some of the most respected researchers in the field, Steven Phinney, Jeff Volek and Dom D'Agostino say in several lectures that "carb thresholds are individual". I think they recommend starting with 50g net and adjust down or up according to the individual's metabolism. Some may have to go zerocarb to get results, very physically active people may go up to 150g. The point is that blood level of ketosis is not equal to fat loss. And that we all have different entry points when the liver starts making ketones, which can also change for the individual as per lifestyle choices like caloric intake, meal frequency, fasting and exercise.
If 20 g total of carbs is what you prefer and thrive on, then that is your choice and only you can decide this.
I don't think people meant any ill by suggesting bending your rules a bit. I perceived it more like they wanted you to succeed for a longer haul. If you wanna be offended by people using their free time to try answer you, then that's your choice too. I just wanna remind you that the kind of very specific dietary advice you were asking for is something you probably would have to spend good money on from a dietitian.
Now, to the best pointer I can give you: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegetarianketo
Hopefully you'll find other people in the same predicament as you there. Best wishes
Edit: inserted a "I think".0 -
Ill be a brand new poster I guess, sharing concern.
There simply are no other sources of high fat beyond what you're already familiar with and sick of at this point. Working the diet in the way that you have been is making you miserable. There are no other foods to introduce that anyone knows of to help make a vegetarian Keto diet at that level of carbs work. There just isn't. No amount by of imagination will make it work at that level of restriction.
Now, if your actual goal is to get into ketosis and remain vegetarian, it CAN be done at higher carbs. If you're actively making a decision to eat in such a way that makes you miserable simply because you decided it so... Well, that sounds suspiciously unhealthy.
You have a very simple option... Either allow more vegetables and higher carbs AND remain Keto at up to 50g a day or keep eating the way you are and be miserable. You'll be Keto either way. This is what everyone is saying to you.
You just don't want to hear it for some reason. That's on you. Not them.0 -
telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12206669/Long-term-vegetarian-diet-changes-human-DNA-raising-risk-of-cancer-and-heart-disease.html
@fileshiny I eat less meat than ever on my low carb way of eating for pain management and I have changed from grain based oils for the reasons mentioned in this article.
I can see how you may feel the way you do. There is science behind the concerns that have been raised. No one is against your way of eating but just want to drive home the point to get protein and fats from your limited options more than 20 grams of carbs may have to travel into your digestive system.
20 grams vs 50 grams of carb does not give faster weight loss as far as I know. Nutritional Ketosis as I see it is to gain better health not just as a weight loss program.
Best of success.0 -
Sorry, Not Sorry
Your current plan is unsustainable and is equivalent to what people here call "Egg Fasting." Egg Fasting is something that is not encouraged, as a general rule, and is certainly discouraged for periods of more than 3-5 days. I know of no keto-experts who recommend a total carb allowance of 20 grams. Even more, almost every single keto expert that I have read suggests 50 grams of net carbs for those trying to do keto and remain vegetarian. Every single one of them stresses that it is infeasible to eat fewer carbs than that and hit the right balance of nutrients.
You may not have purged for 10 years, but that doesn't mean you are cured. You wouldn't be the first person (nor the last) to come in here claiming that you've conquered one type of disordered eating and found the solution in another different form of disordered eating.
I consider myself very well read on ketogenic diets. I've read nearly everything I can get my hands on about it. What I haven't read has almost certainly been read by others on here. I have never seen a vegetarian ketogenic diet that recommends fewer than 40 grams of net carbs and they all stress that it must be net to get a full variety of foods in. I've talked with many others here, and no one else has revealed to me that they've found an expert that says otherwise.
You started higher and it didn't work? What does that even mean? You weren't losing weight as quickly as you wanted? That doesn't mean it's not working. Your weight wasn't changing? Depends on how long you've been doing it and the metabolic health and issues that might be healing.
Look, it's hard to hear but you're on a path that's going to end badly. I refuse to feel bad for telling the truth and not patting you on the back and saying, "it's ok, you'll be fine," when that's just an empty lie.-1 -
On these last posts, I am now leaving the forum.0
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@FIT_Goat you're a jerk.
@baconslave, is his reply really the type of attitude the admins want here?
@fileshiny if you're still here, I encourage you to report the replies you feel are offensive as abusive. Click on the three "..." and follow the prompts to do so. If the admins won't address the attitude and tone of inappropriate relies (especially when an admin himself is the poster!) MFP should be made aware. This group has been put on alert in the past for this type of behavior, it's not just you. I encourage you to stay, you deserve the support and encouragement of the group.
Those who are running people out of the group, admins or not, should be the ones who are encouraged to leave.0 -
@fileshiny we are all different and if your way works for your health that just do it. I will modify my WOE if is get data/lab work that is new info to evaluate. Best of Success.0
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https://www.reddit.com/r/vegetarianketo
If you are still around, check it out. These people are legit ketoers and vegetarians. They are losing weight at a respectable pace and with realistic goals as to what that looks like.
I am regular meat-eating keto, but I am definitely keto at <20 net carbs. I am also a recovered anorexic. This WOE has been helpful to me in not backtracking, but this may not be true for others with ED. I tend to view ED like alcoholism, some people can manage with moderation once "recovered" others must abstain for life.
Take care.0 -
@Cheesy567 I hear your point of view and think name calling is grounds for banning anyone so I ask that you also join in doing it if you are here to help the cause to finding better health. MFP has been a real asset to me and I except I may be abused on most any social media but so far it has not happen to me in this private group. Not sure what is going to today.0
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@FIT_Goat you're a jerk.
@baconslave, is his reply really the type of attitude the admins want here?
@fileshiny if you're still here, I encourage you to report the replies you feel are offensive as abusive. Click on the three "..." and follow the prompts to do so. If the admins won't address the attitude and tone of inappropriate relies (especially when an admin himself is the poster!) MFP should be made aware. This group has been put on alert in the past for this type of behavior, it's not just you. I encourage you to stay, you deserve the support and encouragement of the group.
Those who are running people out of the group, admins or not, should be the ones who are encouraged to leave.
Keto is what it is. And is not what it is not.
I'm not sure it was the most tactful way to respond, though.
MFP has a very hard stance on NOT promoting disordered eating. There are links to resources for those needing help linked in MFP site-wide guidelines. http://myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
It also states groups can also have additional guidelines. It looks like we'll have to add something about disordered eating in ours and about tone.
This thread and the posts therein will be discussed among the other mods.
The bolded is not true however.
Please review our stickied group guideline thread as well as the site-wide community guidelines.
Drama was caused by main forum posters coming into the group, reading and c&ping disgruntled posts from LCD members who felt abused by the attitude in the main forums, and then posting them onto the main forum to cause a ruckus and contribute to divisive attitudes.
Talk of the main forums and/or drama of any kind is not allowed here any longer.
In the future, I'd appreciate it if everyone would watch their tone a little more closely. Thanks.
The thread will be closed for review.0
This discussion has been closed.