Intermittent Fasting -A quote from Dr. Fung, and a question
wheatlessgirl66
Posts: 598 Member
In the last paragraph on this post, https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/longer-fasting-regimens-part-7/, Dr. Fung says:
Does this mean that it's ok for me (a post-menopausal, obese, non-diabetic woman) to eat LCHF just to satiety and not worry about meeting TDEE or any other level of intake because I have enough stored fat for my body to draw upon? Some days, I am satisfied with fewer than 1000 cals. I've been doing 16-18 hr fasts almost daily for the past 2.5 weeks. I would be very happy to know that my BSW is being re-set while my appetite is diminished by fasting.
Thoughts?
"There’s a very good reason for this decrease in appetite. As you start to break the insulin resistance cycle, insulin levels start to decrease. Since insulin is the major regulator of the body set weight (BSW) your body now ‘wants’ to go lower. In response, hunger is suppressed and total energy expenditure is maintained. So – appetite goes down and TEE stays same or goes up. Remember that standard Caloric Reduction as Primary (CRaP) strategies produce the opposite. Appetite goes up and TEE goes down. Which do you think will work in the long run?"
Does this mean that it's ok for me (a post-menopausal, obese, non-diabetic woman) to eat LCHF just to satiety and not worry about meeting TDEE or any other level of intake because I have enough stored fat for my body to draw upon? Some days, I am satisfied with fewer than 1000 cals. I've been doing 16-18 hr fasts almost daily for the past 2.5 weeks. I would be very happy to know that my BSW is being re-set while my appetite is diminished by fasting.
Thoughts?
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Yes. You will use your stored fat and at some point your appetite should increase to keep weight steady.0
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I've always believed in eating a reasonable amount, to satiety. I don't hold much faith in TDEE and BMR calculators for women in menopause, and others with IR, PCOS, autoimmune issues etc.0
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Yes! Thank you!0
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I'd do calorie cycling, so body doesn't get used to a constant low intake. I agree that bets are off concerning the accuracy of standard TDEE and BMR calculations. Any medical or metabolic condition that deviate from standard is likely to make impact on YOUR body's interpretation of ingested intake.
My body never followed the calculators. Actually, I can't lose scale weight unless I semi fast
However! Make sure you get all the micronutrients needed for the body to function. Cause normally they're provided with a varied diet. A very large deficit over time increases the risk of nutrient deficiencies.
Calorie cycling solves this issue elegantly in a very satisfying way
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Watch out for cravings and make sure that if you're going to be out and about without an opportunity to get something you should eat, you take something with you. I'm notorious for forgetting to eat half the day, then eating some kind of crap because I'm starving.0
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Foamroller wrote: »I'd do calorie cycling, so body doesn't get used to a constant low intake. I agree that bets are off concerning the accuracy of standard TDEE and BMR calculations. Any medical or metabolic condition that deviate from standard is likely to make impact on YOUR body's interpretation of ingested intake.
My body never followed the calculators. Actually, I can't lose scale weight unless I semi fast
However! Make sure you get all the micronutrients needed for the body to function. Cause normally they're provided with a varied diet. A very large deficit over time increases the risk of nutrient deficiencies.
Calorie cycling solves this issue elegantly in a very satisfying way
Does calorie cycling mean that I would eat a higher number of calories, say, once a week? Seems simple enough, esp. if I eat breakfast. That stimulates my appetite a lot.
I'm focusing on eating mostly meat and fats. I learned from the meativores that beef especially has all the nutrients I need. Yes?Watch out for cravings and make sure that if you're going to be out and about without an opportunity to get something you should eat, you take something with you. I'm notorious for forgetting to eat half the day, then eating some kind of crap because I'm starving.
Thanks for the good reminder! I will do that. I know that in order for this to work I can't afford to waste my calories on useless carbs.0 -
Yes.
Get enough protein to maintain lean body mass, however0 -
Yes, a caloric refeed 1-2x/week will suffice. Listen to body. I'm same with brekkie. Once I start eating I get "hungry" and can eat everything in sight. So I try not eat until afternoon. If I can hold off the first meal, I'm not hungry at all. It's all very confusing.
Re beef and nutrients. Umm...grass fed beef is more nutrient dense than standard commercial beef. Try go for more game meats if you like it? They eat a big variety of foods in the forest year round = more nutrients in the meat. Even lamb is better, since they are partly grassfed anyway.
I'm NOT saying beef is bad. But I want to remind that the people like Eskimos and such on all meat diets usually have a fair amount of organ meats. Which is a hint that muscle fiber alone is probably not optimal for health in a longer run.
Another hint is that when a lion pride eats, the male is first in line. As the pride has dug into the carcass the leftovers to low ranking members are...muscle fiber. Yep, that's the steaks we love so much. What does the male eat? Organ meats. What does this tell us? That in nature, other predators who have the luxury of picking cuts...choose away steaks.
Please, look into what nutrients you need to get an adequate nutrition. We're all different and you may have to tweak things a bit along the journey.0 -
@nicintime -I will be sure to do that. Thanks.
@Foamroller -Having lamb chops tonight! Hmm, organ meats. Definitely not a fave, mostly mind over matter. I must be a happy low-ranking member of the pride--definitely prefer steak!
I supplement with a multi vitamin plus a D3, Mag glycinate, C, turmeric and a few others. Hopefully that will help keep my micros where they should be. I get blood work next month; other than that I don't know how to tell if my micros are good. Thanks so much for your advice!
PS--edited to add homemade bone broth! Love it!0 -
Yea, homemade bone broth will help restock (pun intended!) on minerals. I think the general advice on 1200 kcal as minimum and a varied diet is to make it easier to hit all the nutrients needed. Did you know that liver is a good source for vitamin C? ...and so is yellow turnip!
Anyway. I understood that you kinda wanted a confirmation beef is good. And it is. I'm just a bit concerned that the combo of mainly beef and a very low intake most days will leave you at risk for deficiencies in the longer run.
Did you know that the micros: iodine, chromium, thyrosine, selenium, sink...and probably a few more...are ESSENTIAL in the chain of events leading to mobilizing energy from STORED fat ? Which could possibly imply that a person can do "everything right" and still not losing much from adipose tissue if they have deficiencies or bad signalling pathways in one or several of those nutrients. This is one of the reasons I always make a big point of getting all the micronutrients needed for the body to function well. Personally, I took great care to get those and in combination with fasting I lost 1 kg per week for 3 months.
Sadly, the chemical and hormonal chain of events leading up to packing the big fat molecules inside adipose tissue down to smaller molecules that can be transported in blood is far more complex and advanced than storing energy as fat.
It's a cruel irony that one of the essential things that helped humans survive in a hostile and hard world, the ability to store fat as an energy source, is now slowly destroying our bodies in times of food abundance.
I'm certain you'll experiment and find a way that works for YOU 0 -
Foamroller wrote: »Yea, homemade bone broth will help restock (pun intended!) on minerals. I think the general advice on 1200 kcal as minimum and a varied diet is to make it easier to hit all the nutrients needed. Did you know that liver is a good source for vitamin C? ...and so is yellow turnip!
Anyway. I understood that you kinda wanted a confirmation beef is good. And it is. I'm just a bit concerned that the combo of mainly beef and a very low intake most days will leave you at risk for deficiencies in the longer run.
Did you know that the micros: iodine, chromium, thyrosine, selenium, sink...and probably a few more...are ESSENTIAL in the chain of events leading to mobilizing energy from STORED fat ? Which could possibly imply that a person can do "everything right" and still not losing much from adipose tissue if they have deficiencies or bad signalling pathways in one or several of those nutrients. This is one of the reasons I always make a big point of getting all the micronutrients needed for the body to function well. Personally, I took great care to get those and in combination with fasting I lost 1 kg per week for 3 months.
Sadly, the chemical and hormonal chain of events leading up to packing the big fat molecules inside adipose tissue down to smaller molecules that can be transported in blood is far more complex and advanced than storing energy as fat.
It's a cruel irony that one of the essential things that helped humans survive in a hostile and hard world, the ability to store fat as an energy source, is now slowly destroying our bodies in times of food abundance.
I'm certain you'll experiment and find a way that works for YOU
Wow. Nope, didn't know that. I see that I really need to learn about the micronutrients. All last year I tried so hard to toe the line and lost very little. It seems like there is some key that hasn't been turned so my body is willing to loosen it's grip on all the fat. I was 'doing everything right' LCHF-wise, but not getting a response from my body. Fasting is helping, but if the micronutrients are off, that might be what was wrong all along. I always told my husband that I could be put in a concentration camp and I'd still be fat when the allied forces came to rescue me. (I'm old, so that reference makes sense. ) Anyway, I will definitely learn more about micros and do my best to make sure I get enough.
Again, thank you so much, @Foamroller !
You contribute so much to this entire forum, and I'm sure this will be helpful to many more besides me. 0 -
AGREED!Again, thank you so much, @Foamroller ! You contribute so much to this entire forum, and I'm sure this will be helpful to many more besides me.0 -
Glad to help and ty you both for the compliments I'll add that the list of fat loss micros is not something I've read anywhere. I compiled the list by being curious and researching when something looked promising. And voilà.
Some of them like chromium are ingredients in all "fat loss" supplements.
Thyrosine I picked up watching lectures about biochemistry and signaling pathways on youtube (Armando Hasudungan). A swedish male model in a documentary swore to his regime of IF and Thyrosine to "keep abs visible".
For people like us on the margins, we have to do a lot of detective work and experimenting to find methods that work. Keep asking yourself questions. It's kinda one of my new hobbies to learn more about how the body works.
Just a word of caution. Taking too much of something may disrupt other biochemical processes. So do NOT overdo it. This is another argument why eating real homemade food is a good thing. It's very hard to get too much of a chemical substance eating real food. But if you can't afford the calories...then a little bit of supplementing is worth a try.
The body is an advanced biochemical facility. The macros are fat for energy and for certain hormones. Protein are Lego blocks to build tissue. Put simplistically:
The micros are the ingredients the body uses to create hormonal pathways or keys.
It's a chemical cauldron. Each individual cell doesn't know what to do. Hormones tell the cell what the body needs. What to build, store, break down...everything is in flux. My body is way smarter than me
Edit: put in a passage about real food. Tidied up the meaning here and there.0 -
Oy. Sounds like looking for needles in a big ol' haystack. Guess I'm not a very good detective, or just a lazy one. I'd rather be given a 'take/eat this' list and get it right, rather than trial and mostly error! I admire your investigative curiosity!
Edit: Real food addition is helpful. I've printing a list of micronutrients and their food sources. I'll start there, b/c supplementation is so dicey--don't know what I'm doing! Thanks!0 -
Foamroller wrote: »iodine, chromium, thyrosine, selenium, sink...and probably a few more
What have you seen for daily values in our context? Are there some that are better consumed via whole food and others better to supplement?
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@Kirkor. I have 1 brazil nut for selenium. The others I supplemented, calories in semi fasts are kinda low. But I kept within RDA on each package. I'm gonna try that list again with my current protocols and see if any difference. Oh, the 1 kg loss/week was a cumulative result of a lot of effort. 5:2,16:8, lowcarb, exercise.
But the fat loss micros are worth a shot if down to very stubborn fat or stalled. No guarantees though 0 -
wheatlessgirl66 wrote: »Oy. Sounds like looking for needles in a big ol' haystack. Guess I'm not a very good detective, or just a lazy one. I'd rather be given a 'take/eat this' list and get it right, rather than trial and mostly error! I admire your investigative curiosity!
Edit: Real food addition is helpful. I've printing a list of micronutrients and their food sources. I'll start there, b/c supplementation is so dicey--don't know what I'm doing! Thanks!
We're all different with our own sets of idiosyncrasies and lopsidedness It means that we can only share our experiences, getting inspired. Maybe something that worked for someone else works for myself? But it might not. It's worth a try if you have a hard time losing and all the standard approaches haven't worked. In order to lose scale weight I have to do a lot of things that others won't have to. It sucks, but I accept that is how my body works. 0 -
wheatlessgirl66 wrote: »In the last paragraph on this post, https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/longer-fasting-regimens-part-7/, Dr. Fung says:"There’s a very good reason for this decrease in appetite. As you start to break the insulin resistance cycle, insulin levels start to decrease. Since insulin is the major regulator of the body set weight (BSW) your body now ‘wants’ to go lower. In response, hunger is suppressed and total energy expenditure is maintained. So – appetite goes down and TEE stays same or goes up. Remember that standard Caloric Reduction as Primary (CRaP) strategies produce the opposite. Appetite goes up and TEE goes down. Which do you think will work in the long run?"
Does this mean that it's ok for me (a post-menopausal, obese, non-diabetic woman) to eat LCHF just to satiety and not worry about meeting TDEE or any other level of intake because I have enough stored fat for my body to draw upon? Some days, I am satisfied with fewer than 1000 cals. I've been doing 16-18 hr fasts almost daily for the past 2.5 weeks. I would be very happy to know that my BSW is being re-set while my appetite is diminished by fasting.
Thoughts?
Yes! The 1200 calorie for men, and 1000 calorie for women is a myth. East slowly and stop when you are full. As you break your fast, start tiny. I usually have a glass of water and a small handful of nuts. Then a nice LCHF meal. I really messed my metabolism up with swing dieting before I found LCHF. The dietary guidelines suggest a diet of 2500 calories a day to lose a pound a week. I didn't lose weight at 1200 per day. I think you have to change up your fasting. Do what your doing. Then try the every other day. Then try a few days fasting then, eat 3 meals a day for a while. Then go back to fasting. I think this will beat you metabolism back to where it's supposed to be!0 -
I think there must be some micronutrients in fish that my body wants. Usually a day or so after eating fish ( usually salmon , cod or haddock) baked with butter, I will loose a half a pound or so. A small amount , 3-4 ounces is so satisfying!0
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@fatblatta I know I've messed up my metabolism by all my years of trying to lose weight. I didn't lose at 1200 either. Varying my pattern seems to be the thing to do, still staying within the LCHF parameter. You don't know how much I want this to work. Thanks for your input!0
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@Jan93L I've already planned wild-caught sardines for lunch--that oughta give me a blast of fish micronutrients! Just trying to figure out what I can eat them with so I can get them down. It won't be crackers! I'm not wild about fish in general, but if I put enough butter on it..... Thanks!
@Foamroller You've given me a whole new area to work with in my effort to improve my health and weight. Yes, a guarantee of weight loss would be awesome, but I know that all the pieces put together will at least make my body work better and improve my health. I will be grateful for that. If, on the other hand, I lose a ton of weight, I will do cartwheels. 0 -
I think of those little bones when I think of sardines. Never tried wild caught ones, only canned. Plenty of butter and or bacon fat might help. Would " breading" them with almond flour help?0
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The wild caught ones are also canned. Got them at Costco. They're so tender I doubt that they would stand up to a breading. I'm thinking of roasting a little cauli/brocc/carrot blend and lay the sardines on top. If needed, I'll add a fried egg; that ought to make it go down easily.0
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I think of those little bones when I think of sardines. Never tried wild caught ones, only canned. Plenty of butter and or bacon fat might help. Would " breading" them with almond flour help?
Help with what?
I just eat them out of the can. Makes me feel like a walrus being fed at SeaWorld
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I think of those little bones when I think of sardines. Never tried wild caught ones, only canned. Plenty of butter and or bacon fat might help. Would " breading" them with almond flour help?
Help with what?
I just eat them out of the can. Makes me feel like a walrus being fed at SeaWorld
Ha! I'll keep that in mind!0 -
I've never tried sardines! They weird me out! I don't know what to do with them. Do you eat the whole thing or bite the body end off and leave the head? Do you eat the head?!?! Are they crunchy? Mushy? What about the bones? I have so many questions!0
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I get them packed in olive oil. You eat the whole thing; you can feel the bones, but they're very tender, not crunchy. Potent smell! Pretty soft, flaky but not mushy unless you mush them with your fork. I don't love them, but can almost enjoy them on the right food. I used to eat them on toast or crackers or on salads w/ dressing. I can't eat raw veggies anymore (digestive issues) and of course, not crackers or toast. You should give them a try--lots of nutrients. amazon.com/Season-Skinless-Boneless-Sardines-3-75-Ounce/dp/B000HDJYWA/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1459866869&sr=8-2&keywords=season+brand+sardines0
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wheatlessgirl66 wrote: »The wild caught ones are also canned. Got them at Costco. They're so tender I doubt that they would stand up to a breading. I'm thinking of roasting a little cauli/brocc/carrot blend and lay the sardines on top. If needed, I'll add a fried egg; that ought to make it go down easily.
The costco ones are delightful. I keep an eight pack at work, and home. I put them on salads, wrapped in romaine etc. LOVE THEM. Kippered herring is also wonderful on a salad, or in a romaine leaf.
And because I'm me (not very low carb), I smear a flat-out wrap with mustard, and then add sardines and roll that baby up.0 -
Sardines with a cracker or wrap was the way I liked mine too. The texture of those fishies on their own was not that... desirable for me.
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Thanks for reminding me I have whole tuna packed in olive oil in a pull tab can in the car. 0
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