Butter Bob Briggs Clarifies Butter :)
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Peter Attia in his blog the Eating Academy in the article Insulin response he states that fat doesn't stimulate insulin. I think the point is eating fat does not increase insulin which is a storage hormone. If insulin is high it encourages the storage of carbs. and makes you hungry. But high fat does not cause elevated insulin and increased hunger.
Dietary fat does increase BG, which means an increase in insulin. The difference between carbs, protein, and fat is that carbs spike BG high and fast; protein raises BG much more slowly (and not all protein breaks down into glucose, as some amino acids cannot be converted), and fat is super slow and barely noticeable. By comparison, one might suggest that carbs raise BG and fat doesn't... by comparison, it is almost that stark of a contrast. But fat still does raise BG a small amount over an extended time.1 -
Thank folks. I learn more every day I log in.
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joslin.org/dietary-fat-can-affect-insulin-requirements-in-type-1-diabetes.html
This very small scale work with Type 1 Diabetes showed eating fats appears to impact insulin requirements after a high fat meal. The video is 3 minutes.
So to say eating Fats does not impact Blood Glucose may not be a valid statement. It was be very interesting to know how/why. As Dr. Peter Attia stated recently in a pod cast that I listened to today a discussion about nutrient total often winds up sounding like discussion on religion/politics which has turned he off.
We know so little about what may or may not happen when we eat carbs, protein and fats and are almost totally void as to the "whys" in my view.0 -
@GaleHawkins I disagree about how much we know. We know a lot about it:
All macros convert to glucose, but at different rates. Body protein (muscle) and body fat can convert to glucose also. Protein can also go directly to muscle repair / growth. Glycogen can also add to glucose.
Glucose goes one of 3 places: Used for energy, replenish glycogen, or stored as fat.
The issue is timing. Once glucose exists, it needs to go somewhere pretty quickly. If you eat a lot of carbs and then immediately sleep for the next 2 hours, you are not using very much for energy. Assuming your glycogen stores are not in need of replenishment, then the excess glucose (and with carbs, there is a lot of that) goes to body fat. Later on, if you wake up and exercise without eating, then you will need to pull glycogen to add to glucose as it is being used. At some point, you will also need to start metabolizing protein and fat (gluconeogenesis) to add to glucose in order to fuel your muscles.
On the other hand, if BG is not spiked, there is less excess glucose to be stored as fat. Your BG rises from glycogen, protein, and fat (either dietary or body) through gluconeogenesis as your muscles use it.
We know glucose is the base energy, while glycogen and body fat are storage of energy. We know that your body is designed to prevent excess glucose from staying for long before it moves to storage.
We also know how different macros become glucose, and the relative time it takes for different macros to become glucose.
What we don't know (maybe someone knows this, but I don't) is if gluconeogenesis happens "when needed" or if it happens with all fat and/or protein (except body muscle), or option 3 - it happens to dietary protein and fat always and to body protein and fat as needed.
If the answer to that is "as needed" for all forms (I'm not sure if it is or not), then LCHF could be maximized when combined with IF, especially if fasting during high activity periods (exercise) and consuming fat 3-5 hours after exercise, but stopping fat consumption 10-12 hours before exercising again. on a 16:8 IF, that could mean exercise from 6am-8am, eat from 12pm-8pm, and fast from 8pm-12pm. This depends entirely on the answer to the prior paragraph, though.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Peter Attia in his blog the Eating Academy in the article Insulin response he states that fat doesn't stimulate insulin. I think the point is eating fat does not increase insulin which is a storage hormone. If insulin is high it encourages the storage of carbs. and makes you hungry. But high fat does not cause elevated insulin and increased hunger.
Dietary fat does increase BG, which means an increase in insulin. The difference between carbs, protein, and fat is that carbs spike BG high and fast; protein raises BG much more slowly (and not all protein breaks down into glucose, as some amino acids cannot be converted), and fat is super slow and barely noticeable. By comparison, one might suggest that carbs raise BG and fat doesn't... by comparison, it is almost that stark of a contrast. But fat still does raise BG a small amount over an extended time.
I think probably when people like Attia and Fung say fat doesn't stimulate insulin, they mean "effectively", or "for the average person" ... so @midwesterner85 as a T1 you're going to be paying a lot closer attention and you're going to notice even the smallest blip in your blood glucose.
But for most people, it's kinda like when we say black coffee is 0 calories ... ya, there's a few calories in a cup, but realistically most people can use a value of 0 and be okay.0 -
It's seems that the minute amount of fat that stimulates insulin would also be even more difficult to detect in an insulin resistant system wouldn't it? And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet? Why would it even bother if there are enough carbs available?
We are just talking about GNG here right? Seems like it's just being said in a different way...0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
This discussion has gone way above Butter Bob's head. His message is "don't sweat the details" and "fasting will lower insulin more than any kind of meal."
But GNG happens whenever substrate is available. What else is the body going to do with excess protein, for example?
Metabolism isn't simple. There's no such thing as "sufficient carbs". The entire blood supply only carries about 5g of glucose. Any intake will perturb homeostasis and the body will have to deal with that perturbation.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
This discussion has gone way above Butter Bob's head. His message is "don't sweat the details" and "fasting will lower insulin more than any kind of meal."
But GNG happens whenever substrate is available. What else is the body going to do with excess protein, for example?
Metabolism isn't simple. There's no such thing as "sufficient carbs". The entire blood supply only carries about 5g of glucose. Any intake will perturb homeostasis and the body will have to deal with that perturbation.
Well, I guess I was making an assumption that protein wasn't in excess. Didn't even consider that. And sufficient carbs by my intention was to suggest the brain, muscles etc., got all the glucose they required from consumed carbs.
Basically, if the body doesn't have to do it, then it wouldn't.... Right?0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And sufficient carbs by my intention was to suggest the brain, muscles etc., got all the glucose they required from consumed carbs.
Homeostasis of blood glucose is designed to meet basal demand. The brain can drink 130g a day, so does that mean that 130g/d meets needs? Nope. That 130g/d is spread out over 24 hours -- the brain drinks 6g an hour. What happens to that other 124g you just ate? Glycogen stores are full, so it gets converted to fat via DNL.
Fat is always in flux. Protein is always in flux (muscle tear down and rebuild frees much more than we eat -- about 300g a day). Glucose is tightly controlled. Any intake perturbs the system.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
That goes towards my earlier unknown:midwesterner85 wrote: »What we don't know (maybe someone knows this, but I don't) is if gluconeogenesis happens "when needed" or if it happens with all fat and/or protein (except body muscle), or option 3 - it happens to dietary protein and fat always and to body protein and fat as needed.
I find it hard to believe that your body doesn't convert any protein and fat just because you have enough carbs to raise glucose (based solely on my personal observations). I would be interested to know if more or less is converted when carbs are not available to provide automatic glucose. I would also be interested in how the body decides to convert protein vs. fat and how it decides on dietary vs. body protein and fat. Also in question is at what point does glycogen storage no longer provide sufficient glucose and GNG begins (or does GNG begin simultaneous to glycogen release)?0 -
The system is so complicated, and dealing with a mixed meal is so complicated, I don't think it's possible to paint a simple picture.
I guess I think of it as a "bucket brigade". There's a steady stream of nutrients, and they go where needed. Hormones signal availability. If there are no end users for the available nutrients, they end up in the liver as substrates for DNL, GNG, etc.
The "problem" with eating is that you're ALWAYS consuming more than is needed at that particular moment, so the body has to deal with the excess.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
This discussion has gone way above Butter Bob's head. His message is "don't sweat the details" and "fasting will lower insulin more than any kind of meal."
But GNG happens whenever substrate is available. What else is the body going to do with excess protein, for example?
Metabolism isn't simple. There's no such thing as "sufficient carbs". The entire blood supply only carries about 5g of glucose. Any intake will perturb homeostasis and the body will have to deal with that perturbation.
I agree @wabmester. While the article that I posted supports @midwesterner85 statement the fat part of the major typically just does not rock the boat of most people I guess.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
This discussion has gone way above Butter Bob's head. His message is "don't sweat the details" and "fasting will lower insulin more than any kind of meal."
But GNG happens whenever substrate is available. What else is the body going to do with excess protein, for example?
Metabolism isn't simple. There's no such thing as "sufficient carbs". The entire blood supply only carries about 5g of glucose. Any intake will perturb homeostasis and the body will have to deal with that perturbation.
I agree @wabmester. While the article that I posted supports @midwesterner85 statement the fat part of the major typically just does not rock the boat of most people I guess.
Right - @kirkor made a good analogy with coffee. With fat, BG rises and so does insulin, but it is such a small amount that it often goes unmentioned.0 -
So cool...thanks for sharing. I have already been pondering fasting 16:8 for a couple of reasons. One obviously to kick start my weight loss again but secondly to get my appetite under control. When I'm under stress (which is often at work) I end up feeling really hungry..but I bet it's just how the stress is coming out. I am trying my hardest to get this figured out and under control! Thanks again!!0
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ShootingStar72 wrote: »I saw the title and thought this was about clarifying butter
. Which I have actually thought about trying before. Wonder how it would taste in bpc?
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/clarified-butter-recipe.html
I liked the video! Thanks!
It tastes good. I make my own ghee clarified butter out of kerrygold unsalted butter. We use this in place of butter at my house. Me & too much dairy don't get along very well. I even have my hubs and boys using it.
It is very simple to do and lasts for a lot longer than we ever have it on hand. Be very careful not to over cook it as I've done and wanted to cry at the waste. I call it my liquid gold. 0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »And would there be any need for the body to bother with GNG in a sufficiently higher carb diet?
That goes towards my earlier unknown:midwesterner85 wrote: »What we don't know (maybe someone knows this, but I don't) is if gluconeogenesis happens "when needed" or if it happens with all fat and/or protein (except body muscle), or option 3 - it happens to dietary protein and fat always and to body protein and fat as needed.
I find it hard to believe that your body doesn't convert any protein and fat just because you have enough carbs to raise glucose (based solely on my personal observations). I would be interested to know if more or less is converted when carbs are not available to provide automatic glucose. I would also be interested in how the body decides to convert protein vs. fat and how it decides on dietary vs. body protein and fat. Also in question is at what point does glycogen storage no longer provide sufficient glucose and GNG begins (or does GNG begin simultaneous to glycogen release)?
I am certain that I listened to a podcast, I think it was Jason Fung, not sure which podcast either. It was probably 2 months or so ago...
Anyway, they were literally detailing the approximate amounts of glycerol and protein that would be converted to glucose on a daily basis during fasting. The discussion was aimed at determining a basic idea of how much muscle might be lost for the purpose. I don't know the details of course, but the general takeaway was that it's limited to meeting the glucose needs of the brain and that's pretty much it. That some comes from fat, but majority comes from protein. So, it was demand driven.
I listen to so much when driving and hear details like that, that I want to be able to reference, but there's no way to "bookmark" stuff0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Anyway, they were literally detailing the approximate amounts of glycerol and protein that would be converted to glucose on a daily basis during fasting.
Sounds like they were discussing one of my favorite studies: Cahill's Starvation in Man. It's a beautiful study. They measured both venous and arterial metabolites during a month of fasting. Minimal glucose needs are about 40g/d. About half of that comes from protein and half from glycerol IIRC.
Of course, that's for steady-state fasting. What does it tell us about the fed state? Maybe not much.
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Thanks for all this. The video is great. It has a very simple and very sane message.
The discussion of when and under what circumstances protein and fats convert to glucose is exactly what I have been wondering about lately - as a wannabe geek who low carbs, fasts intermittently, exercises fairly aggressively during fasting and doesn't want to lose any muscle!
I'm feeling reassured that I'm on the right track.0 -
@megemrj thanks for the info about using Kerry gold! Ghee is so expensive, and I have some digestive issues with dairy so will need to try and see if this helps 0
