Jason Fung is hilarious!
camtosh
Posts: 898 Member
New blog post:
Have you ever noticed that there’s a formula for writing best-selling diet books? I’m going to reveal the secrets right here, right now. I’ve been thinking about this since writing The Obesity Code….how to write a best-selling diet book.
...
http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4f49b1bc5c73173b727fe0ca2&id=032a127901&e=07510dda63
Have you ever noticed that there’s a formula for writing best-selling diet books? I’m going to reveal the secrets right here, right now. I’ve been thinking about this since writing The Obesity Code….how to write a best-selling diet book.
...
http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4f49b1bc5c73173b727fe0ca2&id=032a127901&e=07510dda63
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Replies
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Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway0 -
New blog post:
Have you ever noticed that there’s a formula for writing best-selling diet books? I’m going to reveal the secrets right here, right now. I’ve been thinking about this since writing The Obesity Code….how to write a best-selling diet book.
...
http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4f49b1bc5c73173b727fe0ca2&id=032a127901&e=07510dda63
He has unlocked the secret formula to adoration and riches.
Do you think pickles or mustard would be a better hook?1 -
I don't know what's happening right now...2
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I don't know what's happening right now...
Dr. Fung humorously explained how to commercially launch a proprietary diet through the use of gimmicks, or hooks, and other marketing techniques.
One commenter finds it ironic that Dr. Fung's regimen apparently has proprietary elements also.1 -
I believe the intent of this blog was missed somehow.
Dr. Fung trying to be funny. Maybe a fail?
Interesting how "diet" books are born though!
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Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.4 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Except that he is actively promoting his program and proclaiming that he has the answer, if you'll only pay him to hand it over.
I don't expect physicians to disclose treatment details (or publish peer-reviewed research), except when they produce numerous self-promotion videos that include trotting out patients and disclosing enough to encourage you to hand over money but not enough to evaluate whether doing so is a valid investment.1 -
PaleoInScotland wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Awesome!0 -
@neohdiver not sure why you keep banging this particular drum.
Fasting is free! Anyone can try it out without giving Dr. Fung a dime!5 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Except that he is actively promoting his program and proclaiming that he has the answer, if you'll only pay him to hand it over.
I don't expect physicians to disclose treatment details (or publish peer-reviewed research), except when they produce numerous self-promotion videos that include trotting out patients and disclosing enough to encourage you to hand over money but not enough to evaluate whether doing so is a valid investment.
Two reasons come to mind:
1. Common practice.
Pick a diet, there's a book, a website, a pay site.
2. liability.
One can't safely treat someone for a metabolic condition over the internet3 -
I read most of this without realizing that it was written by Fung for his IDM blog. I was confused at first. LOL
I like Fung. He seems to want to help people and believes in his plan. He isn't really selling anything beyond his book, of which the information in it is completely on his blog and videos. He genuinely seems to want people to understand his thinking and then adapt it for their own.
I'm not 100% behind his plan, but much of it makes sense. There are just parts of his science (protein catabolizing) that I don't quite "get", but that seems to be true for every diet book I have ever read - there ends up being something that doesn't fit 100%.2 -
Just skimmed the article, but it might help to understand the context. He recently wrote a diet book, of course. But there was a recent nasty article about diet books. Especially diet books written by doctors. And specifically about the one written by Dr. Ludwig.
The article was entitled "Diet Books are Full of Lies." There was a storm of controversy. The article was retracted and rewritten.
Here's the revised article:
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/24/11296168/down-with-diet-books
And Ludwig's response:
https://medium.com/@davidludwigmd/all-diet-books-do-not-lie-an-open-letter-to-vox-editor-ezra-klein-edb1caeba0d0#.dwmyapt7a
BTW, the picture in Fung's article of "success" is my doc. 4 -
@neohdiver not sure why you keep banging this particular drum.
Fasting is free! Anyone can try it out without giving Dr. Fung a dime!
I've explained it to you. You choose to ignore my explanation and continue to build straw men you can easily knock down about generic fasting - so once again: Yes, anyone can fast. Fasting is not the point. Curing diabetes is. Fung is claiming his techniques cure diabetes, based on carefully determined fasting protocols, which he will disclose only if you pay him for it. He trots out patients (testimonials) and - touts dramatic cures but provides insufficient details for potential clients to evaluate whether it is worth investing the money to find out the details. He hasn't published, nor does he point to, evidence to support his claims. (Yes, he points to theoretical underpinnings upon which he built his own theory, and I found some of that very useful in designing how I am currently eating. But he stops several steps short of documenting what he claims, or providing enough information so that it can be replicated (either by people interested in a cure, or in designing research to prove (or disprove) his theory.) Having a practice, where the website touts a 1 year waiting period for admission, is a further marketing technique. Scarcity breeds a perception (not necessarily backed by reality) that what he is selling must be really, really, really valuable.
My point in this thread is that it is ironic that his marketing techniques are so similar to those of the best selling diet books he is poking fun at.0 -
@neohdiver not sure why you keep banging this particular drum.
Fasting is free! Anyone can try it out without giving Dr. Fung a dime!
I've explained it to you. You choose to ignore my explanation and continue to build straw men you can easily knock down about generic fasting - so once again: Yes, anyone can fast. Fasting is not the point. Curing diabetes is. Fung is claiming his techniques cure diabetes, based on carefully determined fasting protocols, which he will disclose only if you pay him for it. He trots out patients (testimonials) and - touts dramatic cures but provides insufficient details for potential clients to evaluate whether it is worth investing the money to find out the details. He hasn't published, nor does he point to, evidence to support his claims. (Yes, he points to theoretical underpinnings upon which he built his own theory, and I found some of that very useful in designing how I am currently eating. But he stops several steps short of documenting what he claims, or providing enough information so that it can be replicated (either by people interested in a cure, or in designing research to prove (or disprove) his theory.) Having a practice, where the website touts a 1 year waiting period for admission, is a further marketing technique. Scarcity breeds a perception (not necessarily backed by reality) that what he is selling must be really, really, really valuable.
My point in this thread is that it is ironic that his marketing techniques are so similar to those of the best selling diet books he is poking fun at.
True, but I think Fung is Canadian... A one year waiting period is pretty standard for anything that isn't life threatening in my neck of the woods.
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Just skimmed the article, but it might help to understand the context. He recently wrote a diet book, of course. But there was a recent nasty article about diet books. Especially diet books written by doctors. And specifically about the one written by Dr. Ludwig.
The article was entitled "Diet Books are Full of Lies." There was a storm of controversy. The article was retracted and rewritten.
Here's the revised article:
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/24/11296168/down-with-diet-books
And Ludwig's response:
https://medium.com/@davidludwigmd/all-diet-books-do-not-lie-an-open-letter-to-vox-editor-ezra-klein-edb1caeba0d0#.dwmyapt7a
BTW, the picture in Fung's article of "success" is my doc.
Thanks for the links.
The case made against diet books by doctors is weak. If we should not read any diet books until the theory is proven 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt, we technically should not read any diet books. Ever.
I don't think any diet has been proven to be 100% true beyond eating gluten free for those with celiac, avoiding anaphilactic foods, and reducing carbs (and pairing it with proteins) to help lower insulin needs in diabetics.2 -
Just a reminder to keep it civil. From your friendly neighborhood nosey-mod.
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I don't agree with everything Fung says. But I find it hard to see anyone can make an advice of "not eating" proprietary. @neohdiver. I totally get that it must be infuriating that someone is treating for a diagnose that you have, but you can't get the "recipe". But for the accusation of Fung acting greedy, I see it differently. He's put out hours and hours of research for free both on the blog and in his videos. One can read between the lines about most of it.
He also states several places that patients are very different and need customized eating plans. So there's no guarantee following a certain protocol that worked for someone else will work for you. Liability.
Lucky for you the UK is now in front concerning publishing about a specific protocol reversing T2D markers. Dr. Roy Taylor at Newcastle University. It's 600 kcal/day for 8 weeks. Even that study showed that for very hard cases 8 weeks wasn't enough. For many, 4 weeks was sufficient. The main interesting takeaway for ME is that a fatty pancreas considerably contributes to a deranged glucose disposal. And that different tissue can have different insulin sensitivity. Which could explain why if someone has a lot of muscles and exercise lots (Peter Attia) he can still get T2D if unlucky in the pancreas lottery. Which could also help explain why someone like me can NOT shed scale weight unless I fast. I always gain in mid section first
The study also said that people who have been obese for long (+6 years) run the risk of reduced beta cell function. Making it increasingly harder to lose weight EVEN ON LOWCARB DIET.
ButterBob in youtube explains why the level of fasting insulin is so important. It clicked in my mind when I saw him. Even protein can raise insulin up to 58% I think Phinney and Volek said in their books. Maybe because protein cannot be stored as energy. Fat raises insulin up to 10%. Which goes to show that this incessant measuring of BG is only a proxy. BG is not always congruent with insulin levels. It's the one lesson fructose, sugar alcohols and alcohol should give us. Which could possibly explain that snacking on lots of fat quite often has a metabolic cost if the pancreas is already vulnerable.
Btw, Attia is no longer on keto macros. He's on 120-150 g, he said in the IMHC stem talk. He's using a CGM. He didn't inform us of why he stopped keto. But I guess his BG is much lower than he anticipated.
Too bad there's no easy way to measure insulin levels. THAT is a marker I'd be willing to pay a lot for if there was a reliable hometester.
I'm not saying every T2D should try Dr. Taylor's protocol. Especially if not research very well first. But it does give hope. Also for ME, I'm pretty certain I was heading towards T2D. If you want inspiration a lot of people in the UK following Mosley's bastardization of 800 kcal/day do see improvements in BG. I really find it annoying he's again using someone else's data to argument for his own tweaked protocol. I guess extrapolating findings is one of my pet peeves. Anyway, if you browse through the reviews of Mosley's book The 8 week Blood Sugar Diet (on amazon.co.uk), there's an overwhelming number of people trying it out, claiming mostly success.
The Taylor protocol for reversing T2D is a pioneer study. So take that into account. I wish you the best
TL;DR A UK study from 2015 has shown reversal of T2D with a very low calorie and lowcarb diet that mimics fasting/gastric bypass.2 -
True, but I think Fung is Canadian... A one year waiting period is pretty standard for anything that isn't life threatening in my neck of the woods.
There is a difference between having a one year waiting period - because that is standard in the area, and using that one year waiting period as a marketing tool. I don't believe most Canadian practices advertise the waiting period on their websites.
It is the teasers (fantastic claims + not enough information to evaluate or implement without buying into an expensive treatment program), testimonials (without data about where the testimonial patients fall within the spectrum of everyone who has tried the plan), and using limited access as a marketing tool that are red flags for me that it would take more effort to unpack, verify, and make useful his claims than it would to start from scratch and do my own independent research.
I've been at sorting the internet wheat from the chaff for a long time (since 1988 for 6 uncommon or rare diseases collected by my family, and easily double that for more common diseases - and yes, I did have internet access to medical information in that era via Q-Link and the Cleveland Free-Net systems). I have developed criteria I use to determine whether a site/claims are a productive use of my limited research time or not. (My criteria is not that different from standard advice for when you can rely on an internet site or not.) Applying that criteria, Dr. Fung's internet portfolio falls mostly on the not inherently trustworthy side of the line. It doesn't mean he is wrong - but it means that I can't rely on it without investing more time than it's personally worth.Foamroller wrote: »I don't agree with everything Fung says. But I find it hard to see anyone can make an advice of "not eating" proprietary. @neohdiver. I totally get that it must be infuriating that someone is treating for a diagnose that you have, but you can't get the "recipe". But for the accusation of Fung acting greedy, I see it differently. He's put out hours and hours of research for free both on the blog and in his videos. One can read between the lines about most of it.
You're certainly free to draw your own conclusions. As noted above, I have criteria that I have developed over a period of nearly 3 decades that has served me (and my family) very well in sorting out fluff/marketing/not inherently trustworthy sites and claims from those that I can rely on without the need to do extensive additional research. Based on that criteria, Dr. Fung's work falls in the camp with the marketing practices he is poking fun at.
By my criteria, Dr. Taylor's research (two studies + a third, in progress) falls into the category of work that is inherently trustworthy - although his subsequent proclamations disavowing the premise of his research do not. His research was premised on eating a diet that mimicked the bariatric surgery diet. He has now extended his findings (without data-backed justification) to losing weight by any means, at any speed (i.e. the same old canard that if you just lose enough weight you will no longer have diabetes). Although it is possible he could develop the data to support that conclusion (although I have my doubts), I am currently disappointed that he is promoting, as a cure, a path for which neither his own data, nor any other non-volunteer data he has named, provides any support.
That doesn't mean that I believe every newly diagnosed diabetic should follow his diet, or that if they did each one would be cured. But he presents a small, but convincing, collection of data, collected in a scientifically rigorous manner, that supports his original premise: that a 6-800 calorie diet, followed for a period of 8 weeks, has the potential to put diabetes in remission - and that it is more likely to be effective for recently diagnosed individuals, and younger individuals.
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True, but I think Fung is Canadian... A one year waiting period is pretty standard for anything that isn't life threatening in my neck of the woods.
There is a difference between having a one year waiting period - because that is standard in the area, and using that one year waiting period as a marketing tool. I don't believe most Canadian practices advertise the waiting period on their websites.
True again. I am sure he used the waiting period as a bit of advertising. I honestly don't know if most practices advertise their waiting periods on their websites. I know some do, like for MRIs, because it can take months to get in after a referal and they probably don't want to be tested. But sure, he probably milked it a bit.
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@neohdiver. I understand that you have far more rigorous criteria on a lot of things than me. I'm a novice at learning about the body and metabolism. It seems to me you expect the gold standard of peer reviewed double blind randomized studies to even consider a notion. That's OK. I'm certain you have good reasons for it.
Maybe I'm just a hopeful kinda person. I saw the arguments for fasting from not only Dr Fung, but also Brad Pilon and the UK 5:2 community. I was desperate and wanted to lose weight, so I tried it and succeeded. It isn't easy, but it works. I still believe the fasting has benefits in synergy with lowcarb. Up until Taylor's study I thought it was mainly increasing insulin sensitivity in the liver. Now I see how crucial full capacity of pancreas is.
I think you and just come from very different places and views. I understand your caution. I've always been the more reckless kind!4 -
Pretty common.@neohdiver not sure why you keep banging this particular drum.
Fasting is free! Anyone can try it out without giving Dr. Fung a dime!
I've explained it to you. You choose to ignore my explanation and continue to build straw men you can easily knock down about generic fasting - so once again: Yes, anyone can fast. Fasting is not the point. Curing diabetes is. Fung is claiming his techniques cure diabetes, based on carefully determined fasting protocols, which he will disclose only if you pay him for it. He trots out patients (testimonials) and - touts dramatic cures but provides insufficient details for potential clients to evaluate whether it is worth investing the money to find out the details. He hasn't published, nor does he point to, evidence to support his claims. (Yes, he points to theoretical underpinnings upon which he built his own theory, and I found some of that very useful in designing how I am currently eating. But he stops several steps short of documenting what he claims, or providing enough information so that it can be replicated (either by people interested in a cure, or in designing research to prove (or disprove) his theory.) Having a practice, where the website touts a 1 year waiting period for admission, is a further marketing technique. Scarcity breeds a perception (not necessarily backed by reality) that what he is selling must be really, really, really valuable.
My point in this thread is that it is ironic that his marketing techniques are so similar to those of the best selling diet books he is poking fun at.
True, but I think Fung is Canadian... A one year waiting period is pretty standard for anything that isn't life threatening in my neck of the woods.
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baconslave wrote: »
Just a reminder to keep it civil. From your friendly neighborhood nosey-mod.
Love the visual, and yes, we can disagree and have a good discussion without violating any rules or being disrespectful. Let's all keep that in mind.2 -
Foamroller wrote: »@neohdiver. I understand that you have far more rigorous criteria on a lot of things than me. I'm a novice at learning about the body and metabolism. It seems to me you expect the gold standard of peer reviewed double blind randomized studies to even consider a notion. That's OK. I'm certain you have good reasons for it.
Maybe I'm just a hopeful kinda person. I saw the arguments for fasting from not only Dr Fung, but also Brad Pilon and the UK 5:2 community. I was desperate and wanted to lose weight, so I tried it and succeeded. It isn't easy, but it works. I still believe the fasting has benefits in synergy with lowcarb. Up until Taylor's study I thought it was mainly increasing insulin sensitivity in the liver. Now I see how crucial full capacity of pancreas is.
I think you and just come from very different places and views. I understand your caution. I've always been the more reckless kind!
Synergy is a GREAT word for it.1 -
@Foamroller and @neohdiver - Thanks for offering your thoughtful assessments of Fung's practices.
After having watched several of his YouTube videos and taken quick spin around his website, I don't have the sense that he's engaged in tactics similar to those for which he's criticizing others.
(@KetoTheKingdom and @camtosh - I thought Fung's description of diet books was pretty funny, though "sarcastic" might be a better word. IMHO, pickles and mustard could probably be sharpened to work just as well as proven hooks like chocolate, acai berries, etc....
)
There were two general propositions I took from Fung's free content:- Eat LCHF, limit your calories, incorporate IF into your lifestyle, and your BG, insulin and weight will drop; and
- There is considerable variation between individuals.
I'm not seeing a pay-for-secrets program.- The (current) contract patients must complete does not require maintaining confidentiality about any aspect of the program.
- That contract explains that participants are expected to work closely with their own physicians and will receive individualized nutritional advice and information from Fung's staff.
- The join page of Fung's website has a prominent link to Dietdoctor.com for information about LCHF. Dietdoctor.com has a lot of free information available and allows people interested in exclusive members-only content to evaluate those resources for a month without charge.
@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!6 -
@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!
From my perspective, to be inherently credible, any person/website selling something that trots out real people as marketing tools needs to simultaneously:- Disclose where those real people fall within the spectrum of all people treated. It is trivially easy (and medically irresponsible) to pick the cream of the crop to draw people into treatment when the reality may be that 1/100 actually go into diabetic remission, or are able to complete the program , etc. (choose your criteria). I have no idea whether all of Dr. Fung's patients are successful - or a small fraction of them - because that data is not public.
- Provide specific information about how they were treated. Patient confidentiality is not a valid reason to keep treatment information private, once a decision has been made, and the patients have agreed, to use patients to sell the product (Treatment under Dr. Fung's care, in this case). As far as the concern that the treatments are individualized, I sincerely doubt that they are individualized in a manner that isn't based on a protocol or an algorithm that would be generally applicable to generate an individualized treatment plan. And if they are, disclosure of how his success stories were treated would establish that it is truly individualized, and would support considering to pay for that individualized treatment. As it is now, since we don't know the range of the treatments for his successes, there is no way for me to determine, without making a financial commitment to obtain the secret knowledge, if it truly requires one-on-one customization, or is merely a plug-and-play protocol using individual numbers to generate a treatment plan.
- Gather with scientific rigor and disclose data that supports claims of a miracle cure (and curing diabetes - at this point - falls in that category; as noted earlier - Both Dr. Fung and Dr. Taylor make that claim. Only Dr. Taylor discloses the data to support it.)
I don't demand peer reviewed, double-blind, random studies (as @Foamroller suggested I might require). As a concrete example, I enrolled my daughter in the first adult trial for a medical treatment for her rare disease. The study was halfway across the country and required her to travel to that site every 12 weeks for a year. The decision to enroll her in that trial was based on the strength of about as many case studies as the number of people enrolled in Dr. Taylor's first trial. The data gathered wasn't perfect - the doctor was someone who noticed a phenomenon, documented it as best she could, and published it. For someone who had not previously done research, she did a remarkable job. Had there not been a trial, I would have moved heaven and earth, based on the strength of the data in that statistically insignificant collection of case studies, to find a physician who would agree to use that protocol to treat my daughter (an off-label use of a previously approved drug).
The stark differences from Dr. Fung's presentation(s) include that (1) her protocol was public, (2) the data supporting the protocol was public, (3) the reported data included case studies of all individuals who followed the protocol (including those who had to drop out because of side-effects), not just a collection of success stories for whom incomplete treatment data is made available.
None of this is to say that his ideas are invalid - just that the lack of disclosure and scientific rigor, based on the criteria that I use to sort out where to spend my research time, screams to me, "Don't bother with this person/site."
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Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write such an informative response to my naive questions. What lucky people in your family to have such a resource among them!
I think I've (almost) got it.... What's the difference between one-on-one customization and a sophisticated plug-&-play algorithm? To my untrained eye, it would seem that both would involve evaluating a series of variables to arrive at a treatment protocol. ??
Thanks again.
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@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!
From my perspective, to be inherently credible, any person/website selling something that trots out real people as marketing tools needs to simultaneously:- Disclose where those real people fall within the spectrum of all people treated. It is trivially easy (and medically irresponsible) to pick the cream of the crop to draw people into treatment when the reality may be that 1/100 actually go into diabetic remission, or are able to complete the program , etc. (choose your criteria). I have no idea whether all of Dr. Fung's patients are successful - or a small fraction of them - because that data is not public.
- Provide specific information about how they were treated. Patient confidentiality is not a valid reason to keep treatment information private, once a decision has been made, and the patients have agreed, to use patients to sell the product (Treatment under Dr. Fung's care, in this case). As far as the concern that the treatments are individualized, I sincerely doubt that they are individualized in a manner that isn't based on a protocol or an algorithm that would be generally applicable to generate an individualized treatment plan. And if they are, disclosure of how his success stories were treated would establish that it is truly individualized, and would support considering to pay for that individualized treatment. As it is now, since we don't know the range of the treatments for his successes, there is no way for me to determine, without making a financial commitment to obtain the secret knowledge, if it truly requires one-on-one customization, or is merely a plug-and-play protocol using individual numbers to generate a treatment plan.
- Gather with scientific rigor and disclose data that supports claims of a miracle cure (and curing diabetes - at this point - falls in that category; as noted earlier - Both Dr. Fung and Dr. Taylor make that claim. Only Dr. Taylor discloses the data to support it.)
I don't demand peer reviewed, double-blind, random studies (as @Foamroller suggested I might require). As a concrete example, I enrolled my daughter in the first adult trial for a medical treatment for her rare disease. The study was halfway across the country and required her to travel to that site every 12 weeks for a year. The decision to enroll her in that trial was based on the strength of about as many case studies as the number of people enrolled in Dr. Taylor's first trial. The data gathered wasn't perfect - the doctor was someone who noticed a phenomenon, documented it as best she could, and published it. For someone who had not previously done research, she did a remarkable job. Had there not been a trial, I would have moved heaven and earth, based on the strength of the data in that statistically insignificant collection of case studies, to find a physician who would agree to use that protocol to treat my daughter (an off-label use of a previously approved drug).
The stark differences from Dr. Fung's presentation(s) include that (1) her protocol was public, (2) the data supporting the protocol was public, (3) the reported data included case studies of all individuals who followed the protocol (including those who had to drop out because of side-effects), not just a collection of success stories for whom incomplete treatment data is made available.
None of this is to say that his ideas are invalid - just that the lack of disclosure and scientific rigor, based on the criteria that I use to sort out where to spend my research time, screams to me, "Don't bother with this person/site."
I'm so pleased for you to hear that you were able to enrol your daughter in a trial you feel hopeful about, it can be so hard to meet the criteria for many research projects. I wish your family all the best with the treatment.
Just to preface, I neither fast not follow Dr. Fung as I like food too much to stop eating, but this just seemed like a good time and place to share.
I'm so grateful that as a T2 diabetic for 10 years that there is real potential for me to be able to manage my condition with diet and exercise (instead of drugs), I'm nearly there and am happy with my n=1 results. Of course if I can also regain normal organ function too eventually as I lose more weight, that's even better, but I'm happy if all I achieve is eliminating my need for insulin.
I'm not at the mercy of the people with the prescription pads or the insurance companies. I have all the power in deciding my treatment course, unlike many others who have to battle doctors and insurance companies for the treatment they need.7 -
PaleoInScotland wrote: »I'm so grateful that as a T2 diabetic for 10 years that there is real potential for me to be able to manage my condition with diet and exercise (instead of drugs), I'm nearly there and am happy with my n=1 results. Of course if I can also regain normal organ function too eventually as I lose more weight, that's even better, but I'm happy if all I achieve is eliminating my need for insulin.
I'm not at the mercy of the people with the prescription pads or the insurance companies. I have all the power in deciding my treatment course, unlike many others who have to battle doctors and insurance companies for the treatment they need.
Nice going. (And thanks for the upbeat reminder not to overlook the silver linings in our lives!)2 -
@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.2
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