Jason Fung is hilarious!
Replies
-
Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
Oh, yes! - keeping limbs, kidney function, eyesight, tactile sensation, years of your life - that's plenty enough motivation, whether the trade-off is as benign as following a strict diet (i.e., not eating poison) or something spicier, such as (per @Sunny_Bunny_ ) downing a daily dose of horse apples....
2 -
Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
@Foamroller I totally don't knock fasting, I'm really glad some people find it a great option for them. Unfortunately for me, my blood sugar goes through the roof if I don't eat a little bit of food. I have given fasting a try, and IF, but both have resulted in far too much of an increase in insulin use. I'm sure if I fasted for days on end eventually things would level off, but I'm happy with my current 90% reduction in insulin use, which is still continuing to fall as I continue to lose weight.
But again, good for those whom it works for, everyone's body and mind is different. I would never suggest to someone else that they should do what I do, though I'm always happy to share my journey; I believe nutrition needs to be personalised. I know a lot of people on here do really well on a much higher calorie LCHF diet than I eat and many don't worry about calories at all, our bodies are all different.
I lean more towards Dr. Taylor's work than Dr. Fung's, mainly because it was Dr. Taylor who inspired my current journey. I live close enough to Newcastle and would have gladly participated if I qualified, but unfortunately I do not as I've been diabetic too long and I take insulin.
I eat a very low calorie diet for my weight, albeit not as low as Dr. Taylor prescribes in his program, but I doubt many (or any) of the participants had as much weight to lose as I do, so my calorie deficit is probably close to theirs. Eating LCHF allows me to maintain that huge calorie deficit each day because it quells my hunger, most days lol.2 -
@PaleoInScotland. It sounds like you're a good example that we're indeed very individual and that doing anything with a medical diagnose is best to do with medical advisors on board. Just curious. Is the higher BG during fasting a result of the body mobilizing energy from stored fat? The body will convert as per need basis.1
-
@Foamroller I'll let someone more knowledgeable on liver and pancreas science speak to specific details or studies. But as a 10-year diabetic, I can definitely attest to the fact that when you are diabetic your glucose and insulin management systems no longer perform "as per need basis" anymore unfortunately. They do whatever the heck they please. Stress is my biggest blood sugar enemy and it causes me more grief than carbs do. I can quit carbs, I can't quit working or afford to work at a job where I just play with puppies and kittens all day (they bring my stress levels way down
)
I don't get Dawn Phenomenon, my blood glucose is spot on when I wake up in the morning, but I do get a huge spike in blood glucose about 3 hours after I wake up. If I eat (or inject fast acting insulin, which is not my preferred option), my blood glucose comes down. If I don't eat, it continues to go up and doesn't go back down to normal levels until about 24 hours later (as I discovered when trying a fast). The mid-morning spike on my 2nd day was even higher than the first. The levels that it rises to are not levels that I am comfortable with, even on a short term basis, so incorporating a day here and there of fasting doesn't make sense for me. As I said, I'm sure if I continued on and took it to a full 2 days and onto a 3rd or 4th, I'm quite sure things would eventually even out, but I have absolutely no desire to do that as a tiny shot of insulin and a small meal solves the blood sugar problem and allows me to maintain a weight loss diet that is sustainable on a long-term basis.4 -
Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
Oh, yes! - keeping limbs, kidney function, eyesight, tactile sensation, years of your life - that's plenty enough motivation, whether the trade-off is as benign as following a strict diet (i.e., not eating poison) or something spicier, such as (per @Sunny_Bunny_ ) downing a daily dose of horse apples....
Ha! Yes! If horse apples were a cure for a terrible condition I were suffering, I'd salt and pepper that baby and get to chomping! Lol2 -
@PaleoInScotland fast raises my BG too. I tried it after reading The Obesity Code, it all makes so much sense, unfortunately my body doesn't agree.
I may give it another try because I've been gaining and losing the same 5lbs for 2 months and my fasting insulin is way too high (though less than half what it was a year ago). Fung makes a compelling case for obesity being an hormonal disease and for the need to lower insulin to lose weight sustainably. Unfortunately it looks like my insulin has come as low as it is going to go on LCHF. Bummer.
::flowerforyou::0 -
For meat eaters (zero carb) you may want to check out the debate thread subject Can one live on only meat? Some good supporting links have been posted.
On the subject of Jason and others I think it reflects human behavior in general . I see ZERO difference in the leaders/followers of theology, politics or medicine.
Having worked in and/or studied farming, computer programming, tool and die, electronics and earned undergraduate degrees related to theology, psychology, biology and physics on the way to earning my OD degree now at the age of 65 I am really starting to grasp how ignorant I am with 12 years of butt in chair post high school classroom work.
Peer reviews in my experience are generally nothing more than egotistical old men trying to control the next generation. I for one am glad Einstein did not get limited by peer reviews.
Every youtube presentation on any subject contains false info and often it is by intent perhaps.
Any protocol by any diet doctor or wanted to be diet advisor is both valid and invalid in my view.
On the subject of BG levels we know there are a dozen or more hormones, etc that manage BG levels but we do not understand how they may impact any one human at anyone one time.
I grew up milking cows by hand. Mom put it into the frig in glass gallon jugs. 100% of the time the cream always rose to top of the jug of milk. That is how I deal with dieting info.
I do not worship any guru in any field of any subject but I will give most anyone an ear until it is proven in my mind they are willing to hurt anyone IF it puts $$$ into their pockets. That group cease to exist as far as I am concerned.
I like Jason and do think he can be hilarious even though he can been mistaken. I see him willing to learn new info from new resources and that is why he has my ear.
1 -
I like fasting because it works for me.
I have Dawn phenomenom so my FBG is usually my highest of the day; thankfully it is not super high - just prediabetic levels of 5.5-6.0. It is still extremely annoying to me because when I started LCHF my FBG was normal for months; once I fat adapted my FBG went up to pre-dietary changes levels. Annoying. When I fast, whether it is from 6pm until the next day or for a day or two, my FBG comes right down to near perfect levels. I like fasting for that.
I also dislike fasting because it works for me. I like to eat later in the day. I don't start eating until the afternoon on most days so stopping by 6pm is inconvenient.... and less fun. I still don't do it most days.
To be honest, I find it easier to not eat for an entire day - just never start - than it is to stop 5 hours before bed time.
I also lose weight easier with fasting... darn it. I would have probably been a good test subject for Fung to use as an example.
2 -
Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
0 -
PaleoInScotland wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Brilliant. Thxs for sharing. Listening got me through quite a long session on eliptical trainer and stretching. Interesting. Is this the study you are participating in?0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
For some (well...me), it does bring down BG more than LCHF can. Supposedly the increased GH can help with muscle sparing, but increased GH is not good for all people....1 -
KetoGirl83 wrote: »@PaleoInScotland fast raises my BG too. I tried it after reading The Obesity Code, it all makes so much sense, unfortunately my body doesn't agree.
I may give it another try because I've been gaining and losing the same 5lbs for 2 months and my fasting insulin is way too high (though less than half what it was a year ago). Fung makes a compelling case for obesity being an hormonal disease and for the need to lower insulin to lose weight sustainably. Unfortunately it looks like my insulin has come as low as it is going to go on LCHF. Bummer.
::flowerforyou::
I'm no expert (on culinary or hormonal matters, or anything else), but I'm wondering if we have some similarities....
A high insulin level alone shouldn't be responsible for keeping your BG up during fasting. If you're fasting over 18 hours, then it would seem like your liver and kidneys are conspiring to produce new glucose rather than ketones as fuel for your mind and body. From what I think I understand, amylin, cortisol, epinephrine (in addition to glucagon) could be involved. It would seem to follow that if there is sufficient available insulin to counteract their combined effect under normal circumstances, then the insulin that's present isn't getting a proper audience.
So I would think the key would be lowering insulin resistance, which is not the same as lowering insulin levels. Fasting regularly and maintaining a low-calorie LCHF diet for weight loss have worked pretty well for me, though it did take some time for my BG levels to drift down (not counting times I fasted for over 24 hours, a technique that has always worked).
But here's the puzzling part - maybe you're in the same boat: if I go even a full day without Metformin, my fasting BG rises from the 70s-80s to over 100. While it's nice to know there's at least one cheap and effective way to reduce insulin resistance for some of us, Metformin can trigger certain side effects that aren't altogether desirable.
C'est la vie. Looks like Metformin and Imodium will be part of my daily routine for the duration, whether I like them apples or not.....
2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
For some (well...me), it does bring down BG more than LCHF can. Supposedly the increased GH can help with muscle sparing, but increased GH is not good for all people....
anabolicmen.com/increase-growth-hormone-levels-naturally/
Thanks. Just never thought much about the Growth Hormone factor. Fasting is one of the 20 things mentioned in the above article as how to increase GH production naturally.1 -
Two words: Autophagy and BDNFGaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
Mice
BDNF
http://roguehealthandfitness.com/fasting-exercise-increase-levels-brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor/
The Abstract from Pub med
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16011467
Mark's Daily Apple devoted a whole series to IF:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-brain-function/#axzz47QDLDjzW
Autophagy
An ok overview
http://www.cavemandoctor.com/2012/04/06/autophagy-turning-stress-into-health/
I think it's hard to try separate effects of ketosis and fasting since at some point during sleep we all go into ketosis. An interesting question would be whether a fast will give additional benefits?
So if someone is in NK and keto adapted and still can't lose weight...why is that? Maybe they're never giving the body a chance to dip into stored fat? (Edit: Simplified, the body burns preferentially energy in roughly this order: glucose and fatty acids in blood. Glycogen in muscle. Glycogen in liver. Mobilizing big fat molecules from stored fat. Packing them into smaller molecules into blood. Lean tissue. Organ failure) Before most people have had the time to digest the last meal during waking hours, we've already topped on with another meal or snack! The body will never get enough time to burn from the belly. The chemical pathways to do lipolysis is much more complicated than just taking easy access free fatty acids from recent foods.
In gen pop CICO is the answer. Although I disagree with it being a cause, I do think that a severe caloric restriction sets a chain reaction in motion....A cascade of hormonal pathways. It's like when you're stuck in traffic, everything seems like stop and go. Hit a green wave and you ride all the way through. If only one of those traffic lights (hormonal receptors) change lights...the cascade is broken. (or reduced)
So CICO isn't the direct cause of weight loss...it's a proxy. Giving the body enough micronutrients and stimulus to function properly, it will produce all the green traffic lights when you need it.
Does that make sense?
I believe intermittent fasting is ONE of the methods that provide the body the stimulus it needs to work better as we age. There's no one magic method.
Edit. Sorry, inserted a lot of extra info. I also forgot to say that it seems to me that NK does not fix fatty liver and pancreas to the same extent IF does in the more severe cases of metabolic damage. That's maybe why Taylor's study showed some needs longer than 8 weeks. In that case I would calorie cycle for some weeks, then try again after.4 -
@Foamroller those are awesome links on the subject. CMA or Chaperone Mediated Autophagy seems to be only triggered by the presence of ketone bodies which is more specific type of autophagy as the way I read it.
jbc.org/content/280/27/25864.full
1 -
On the subject of nutritional ketosis I saw in some post Dr. Peter Attia had moved to eating 120-200 carbs daily. If that is factual does anyone know WHY? I did him questioning NK in an interview as some point in the past.
Is there any reason to convert back to carb burning at least from time to time or just do it as IF? After 20 months I was just wondering since Dr. Attia was my guiding keto light from the get go.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »On the subject of nutritional ketosis I saw in some post Dr. Peter Attia had moved to eating 120-200 carbs daily. If that is factual does anyone know WHY? I did him questioning NK in an interview as some point in the past.
Is there any reason to convert back to carb burning at least from time to time or just do it as IF? After 20 months I was just wondering since Dr. Attia was my guiding keto light from the get go.
It was me who posted about Attia quitting keto above. He didn't say exactly why. But from the Stem talk it sounded like the Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) made him realize that he didn't have to keto anymore. He also said he shifted his focus towards "longevity" rather than athletic output. Reducing levels of IGF-1 seems to be instrumental in cancer prevention. Sooo....insulinogenic amino acids like whey etc. are stimulating IGF-1. Which also seems to coincide as a part in the puzzle of cancerous cells going haywire. Dom D'Agostino and Rhonda Patrick also talk a lot about IGF-1 lately (maybe cause they're all friends?).
We want IGF-1 for protein synthesis and muscle growth...but not so much the body is overstimulated...is what I understand from this reasoning. Checks and balances!
You can listen for yourself:
https://youtu.be/AImlHYal3cI
Edit: Sorry I'm very talkative today. I would NOT try to emulate Attia. The guy can deadlift 350 lbs and is in a very good shape. I would guess he can probably store more than the 500g baseline glycogen in muscle than most men.2 -
After 15 minutes I will make time for the rest of this talk soon.0
-
SamandaIndia wrote: »PaleoInScotland wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Brilliant. Thxs for sharing. Listening got me through quite a long session on eliptical trainer and stretching. Interesting. Is this the study you are participating in?
@SamandaIndia I didn't qualify for the study unfortunately as I've been diabetic too long and I take insulin, albeit not much anymore. He was just my inspiration to really work hard to get off my insulin.0 -
@PaleoInScotland no doubt you in turn will inspire others here to do the same. Keep going!!1
-
https://youtube.com/watch?v=qvNLNl7oJnM
Rhonda Patrick makes a great presentation and hits IF pluses to longevity.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://youtube.com/watch?v=qvNLNl7oJnM
Rhonda Patrick makes a great presentation and hits IF pluses to longevity.
Yeah, her brain is like synapses connecting on ADHD. Sometimes it can be hard to follow as a layman, but she always provides great nuggets to look into further.
Here is the Mark Mattson on the IMHC. This is mostly mice, but the findings are very intriguing! They compared only exercise, only food restriction, both exercise and food limit and finally none of it. I think that if someone is happy with keto alone and get results from it, just leave it alone, lol. But if someone does not get the results they want or are stalled for long time or are very close to goal or are in the sunset years like me...there's no risk in trying these add-ons as an enhancement
Personally I find doing daily IF, some lowcarbing plus some form of daily physical activity has worked wonders for me, both mentally and physically. It didn't happen overnight though. But ic it as an investment for the future and it makes me feel GOOOOD!
https://youtu.be/ZpcVku45hFY 1 -
@Foamroller ---sunset years? Girl, you're 44! The sun is still shining brightly for you!
(I'm sunset!) 2 -
45 yo, but Ty anyway If we assume 80 yo is more or less the age when many people end up in care homes. I'm just over to sunset side. I wanna live my life to the fullest as long as possible! Bright and clear, not doped down. 2
-
1
-
Haha, maybe I was unclear, lol. I think there's no coincidence that sarcopenia and gaining weight for the majority of people accelerate around age 40. Why is this? There are many theories. But few concluding answers.
Anyway....from here on out...the body and mind are slowly decaying. Maillard effect. I want to see if I can prevent or slow that down. Will it work? No guarantees. Sometimes I just have to take leaps of faith. That's what I meant with sunset. It was a metaphor, I didn't know it's an idiom. English is not my native language, hehe.3 -
Ha. Just givin' you the business b/c if you're sunset, I'm......way beyond that. Here's to healthy, lively, joyous years ahead for all of us! 3
-
Hmm. Foa moi rolla... Bavarian?2
-
@Foamroller that was funny about Rhonda's fast talking. Often I watch Youtube at 1.5x speed and I checked the speed three times watching her because I thought it was on set faster than 1x.
She said max for Vit D levels was 60 but that lower than many others state.1
This discussion has been closed.