Jason Fung is hilarious!
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@neohdiver. I understand that you have far more rigorous criteria on a lot of things than me. I'm a novice at learning about the body and metabolism. It seems to me you expect the gold standard of peer reviewed double blind randomized studies to even consider a notion. That's OK. I'm certain you have good reasons for it.
Maybe I'm just a hopeful kinda person. I saw the arguments for fasting from not only Dr Fung, but also Brad Pilon and the UK 5:2 community. I was desperate and wanted to lose weight, so I tried it and succeeded. It isn't easy, but it works. I still believe the fasting has benefits in synergy with lowcarb. Up until Taylor's study I thought it was mainly increasing insulin sensitivity in the liver. Now I see how crucial full capacity of pancreas is.
I think you and just come from very different places and views. I understand your caution. I've always been the more reckless kind!4 -
Pretty common.@neohdiver not sure why you keep banging this particular drum.
Fasting is free! Anyone can try it out without giving Dr. Fung a dime!
I've explained it to you. You choose to ignore my explanation and continue to build straw men you can easily knock down about generic fasting - so once again: Yes, anyone can fast. Fasting is not the point. Curing diabetes is. Fung is claiming his techniques cure diabetes, based on carefully determined fasting protocols, which he will disclose only if you pay him for it. He trots out patients (testimonials) and - touts dramatic cures but provides insufficient details for potential clients to evaluate whether it is worth investing the money to find out the details. He hasn't published, nor does he point to, evidence to support his claims. (Yes, he points to theoretical underpinnings upon which he built his own theory, and I found some of that very useful in designing how I am currently eating. But he stops several steps short of documenting what he claims, or providing enough information so that it can be replicated (either by people interested in a cure, or in designing research to prove (or disprove) his theory.) Having a practice, where the website touts a 1 year waiting period for admission, is a further marketing technique. Scarcity breeds a perception (not necessarily backed by reality) that what he is selling must be really, really, really valuable.
My point in this thread is that it is ironic that his marketing techniques are so similar to those of the best selling diet books he is poking fun at.
True, but I think Fung is Canadian... A one year waiting period is pretty standard for anything that isn't life threatening in my neck of the woods.
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baconslave wrote: »
Just a reminder to keep it civil. From your friendly neighborhood nosey-mod.
Love the visual, and yes, we can disagree and have a good discussion without violating any rules or being disrespectful. Let's all keep that in mind.2 -
Foamroller wrote: »@neohdiver. I understand that you have far more rigorous criteria on a lot of things than me. I'm a novice at learning about the body and metabolism. It seems to me you expect the gold standard of peer reviewed double blind randomized studies to even consider a notion. That's OK. I'm certain you have good reasons for it.
Maybe I'm just a hopeful kinda person. I saw the arguments for fasting from not only Dr Fung, but also Brad Pilon and the UK 5:2 community. I was desperate and wanted to lose weight, so I tried it and succeeded. It isn't easy, but it works. I still believe the fasting has benefits in synergy with lowcarb. Up until Taylor's study I thought it was mainly increasing insulin sensitivity in the liver. Now I see how crucial full capacity of pancreas is.
I think you and just come from very different places and views. I understand your caution. I've always been the more reckless kind!
Synergy is a GREAT word for it.1 -
@Foamroller and @neohdiver - Thanks for offering your thoughtful assessments of Fung's practices.
After having watched several of his YouTube videos and taken quick spin around his website, I don't have the sense that he's engaged in tactics similar to those for which he's criticizing others.
(@KetoTheKingdom and @camtosh - I thought Fung's description of diet books was pretty funny, though "sarcastic" might be a better word. IMHO, pickles and mustard could probably be sharpened to work just as well as proven hooks like chocolate, acai berries, etc....
)
There were two general propositions I took from Fung's free content:- Eat LCHF, limit your calories, incorporate IF into your lifestyle, and your BG, insulin and weight will drop; and
- There is considerable variation between individuals.
I'm not seeing a pay-for-secrets program.- The (current) contract patients must complete does not require maintaining confidentiality about any aspect of the program.
- That contract explains that participants are expected to work closely with their own physicians and will receive individualized nutritional advice and information from Fung's staff.
- The join page of Fung's website has a prominent link to Dietdoctor.com for information about LCHF. Dietdoctor.com has a lot of free information available and allows people interested in exclusive members-only content to evaluate those resources for a month without charge.
@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!6 -
@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!
From my perspective, to be inherently credible, any person/website selling something that trots out real people as marketing tools needs to simultaneously:- Disclose where those real people fall within the spectrum of all people treated. It is trivially easy (and medically irresponsible) to pick the cream of the crop to draw people into treatment when the reality may be that 1/100 actually go into diabetic remission, or are able to complete the program , etc. (choose your criteria). I have no idea whether all of Dr. Fung's patients are successful - or a small fraction of them - because that data is not public.
- Provide specific information about how they were treated. Patient confidentiality is not a valid reason to keep treatment information private, once a decision has been made, and the patients have agreed, to use patients to sell the product (Treatment under Dr. Fung's care, in this case). As far as the concern that the treatments are individualized, I sincerely doubt that they are individualized in a manner that isn't based on a protocol or an algorithm that would be generally applicable to generate an individualized treatment plan. And if they are, disclosure of how his success stories were treated would establish that it is truly individualized, and would support considering to pay for that individualized treatment. As it is now, since we don't know the range of the treatments for his successes, there is no way for me to determine, without making a financial commitment to obtain the secret knowledge, if it truly requires one-on-one customization, or is merely a plug-and-play protocol using individual numbers to generate a treatment plan.
- Gather with scientific rigor and disclose data that supports claims of a miracle cure (and curing diabetes - at this point - falls in that category; as noted earlier - Both Dr. Fung and Dr. Taylor make that claim. Only Dr. Taylor discloses the data to support it.)
I don't demand peer reviewed, double-blind, random studies (as @Foamroller suggested I might require). As a concrete example, I enrolled my daughter in the first adult trial for a medical treatment for her rare disease. The study was halfway across the country and required her to travel to that site every 12 weeks for a year. The decision to enroll her in that trial was based on the strength of about as many case studies as the number of people enrolled in Dr. Taylor's first trial. The data gathered wasn't perfect - the doctor was someone who noticed a phenomenon, documented it as best she could, and published it. For someone who had not previously done research, she did a remarkable job. Had there not been a trial, I would have moved heaven and earth, based on the strength of the data in that statistically insignificant collection of case studies, to find a physician who would agree to use that protocol to treat my daughter (an off-label use of a previously approved drug).
The stark differences from Dr. Fung's presentation(s) include that (1) her protocol was public, (2) the data supporting the protocol was public, (3) the reported data included case studies of all individuals who followed the protocol (including those who had to drop out because of side-effects), not just a collection of success stories for whom incomplete treatment data is made available.
None of this is to say that his ideas are invalid - just that the lack of disclosure and scientific rigor, based on the criteria that I use to sort out where to spend my research time, screams to me, "Don't bother with this person/site."
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Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write such an informative response to my naive questions. What lucky people in your family to have such a resource among them!
I think I've (almost) got it.... What's the difference between one-on-one customization and a sophisticated plug-&-play algorithm? To my untrained eye, it would seem that both would involve evaluating a series of variables to arrive at a treatment protocol. ??
Thanks again.
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@neohdiver - I respect your opinions - I'm curious what you would like to see Fung disclose in order to be able to assess his program? If what Fung is offering is individualized nutritional advice for individual patients, what could he divulge in the way of general information about his program that would allow persons to receive or infer advice tailored to their circumstances without spending $ to become participants? (Or have I perhaps missed the point?) Thx!
From my perspective, to be inherently credible, any person/website selling something that trots out real people as marketing tools needs to simultaneously:- Disclose where those real people fall within the spectrum of all people treated. It is trivially easy (and medically irresponsible) to pick the cream of the crop to draw people into treatment when the reality may be that 1/100 actually go into diabetic remission, or are able to complete the program , etc. (choose your criteria). I have no idea whether all of Dr. Fung's patients are successful - or a small fraction of them - because that data is not public.
- Provide specific information about how they were treated. Patient confidentiality is not a valid reason to keep treatment information private, once a decision has been made, and the patients have agreed, to use patients to sell the product (Treatment under Dr. Fung's care, in this case). As far as the concern that the treatments are individualized, I sincerely doubt that they are individualized in a manner that isn't based on a protocol or an algorithm that would be generally applicable to generate an individualized treatment plan. And if they are, disclosure of how his success stories were treated would establish that it is truly individualized, and would support considering to pay for that individualized treatment. As it is now, since we don't know the range of the treatments for his successes, there is no way for me to determine, without making a financial commitment to obtain the secret knowledge, if it truly requires one-on-one customization, or is merely a plug-and-play protocol using individual numbers to generate a treatment plan.
- Gather with scientific rigor and disclose data that supports claims of a miracle cure (and curing diabetes - at this point - falls in that category; as noted earlier - Both Dr. Fung and Dr. Taylor make that claim. Only Dr. Taylor discloses the data to support it.)
I don't demand peer reviewed, double-blind, random studies (as @Foamroller suggested I might require). As a concrete example, I enrolled my daughter in the first adult trial for a medical treatment for her rare disease. The study was halfway across the country and required her to travel to that site every 12 weeks for a year. The decision to enroll her in that trial was based on the strength of about as many case studies as the number of people enrolled in Dr. Taylor's first trial. The data gathered wasn't perfect - the doctor was someone who noticed a phenomenon, documented it as best she could, and published it. For someone who had not previously done research, she did a remarkable job. Had there not been a trial, I would have moved heaven and earth, based on the strength of the data in that statistically insignificant collection of case studies, to find a physician who would agree to use that protocol to treat my daughter (an off-label use of a previously approved drug).
The stark differences from Dr. Fung's presentation(s) include that (1) her protocol was public, (2) the data supporting the protocol was public, (3) the reported data included case studies of all individuals who followed the protocol (including those who had to drop out because of side-effects), not just a collection of success stories for whom incomplete treatment data is made available.
None of this is to say that his ideas are invalid - just that the lack of disclosure and scientific rigor, based on the criteria that I use to sort out where to spend my research time, screams to me, "Don't bother with this person/site."
I'm so pleased for you to hear that you were able to enrol your daughter in a trial you feel hopeful about, it can be so hard to meet the criteria for many research projects. I wish your family all the best with the treatment.
Just to preface, I neither fast not follow Dr. Fung as I like food too much to stop eating, but this just seemed like a good time and place to share.
I'm so grateful that as a T2 diabetic for 10 years that there is real potential for me to be able to manage my condition with diet and exercise (instead of drugs), I'm nearly there and am happy with my n=1 results. Of course if I can also regain normal organ function too eventually as I lose more weight, that's even better, but I'm happy if all I achieve is eliminating my need for insulin.
I'm not at the mercy of the people with the prescription pads or the insurance companies. I have all the power in deciding my treatment course, unlike many others who have to battle doctors and insurance companies for the treatment they need.7 -
PaleoInScotland wrote: »I'm so grateful that as a T2 diabetic for 10 years that there is real potential for me to be able to manage my condition with diet and exercise (instead of drugs), I'm nearly there and am happy with my n=1 results. Of course if I can also regain normal organ function too eventually as I lose more weight, that's even better, but I'm happy if all I achieve is eliminating my need for insulin.
I'm not at the mercy of the people with the prescription pads or the insurance companies. I have all the power in deciding my treatment course, unlike many others who have to battle doctors and insurance companies for the treatment they need.
Nice going. (And thanks for the upbeat reminder not to overlook the silver linings in our lives!)2 -
@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.2 -
Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
Oh, yes! - keeping limbs, kidney function, eyesight, tactile sensation, years of your life - that's plenty enough motivation, whether the trade-off is as benign as following a strict diet (i.e., not eating poison) or something spicier, such as (per @Sunny_Bunny_ ) downing a daily dose of horse apples....
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Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
@Foamroller I totally don't knock fasting, I'm really glad some people find it a great option for them. Unfortunately for me, my blood sugar goes through the roof if I don't eat a little bit of food. I have given fasting a try, and IF, but both have resulted in far too much of an increase in insulin use. I'm sure if I fasted for days on end eventually things would level off, but I'm happy with my current 90% reduction in insulin use, which is still continuing to fall as I continue to lose weight.
But again, good for those whom it works for, everyone's body and mind is different. I would never suggest to someone else that they should do what I do, though I'm always happy to share my journey; I believe nutrition needs to be personalised. I know a lot of people on here do really well on a much higher calorie LCHF diet than I eat and many don't worry about calories at all, our bodies are all different.
I lean more towards Dr. Taylor's work than Dr. Fung's, mainly because it was Dr. Taylor who inspired my current journey. I live close enough to Newcastle and would have gladly participated if I qualified, but unfortunately I do not as I've been diabetic too long and I take insulin.
I eat a very low calorie diet for my weight, albeit not as low as Dr. Taylor prescribes in his program, but I doubt many (or any) of the participants had as much weight to lose as I do, so my calorie deficit is probably close to theirs. Eating LCHF allows me to maintain that huge calorie deficit each day because it quells my hunger, most days lol.2 -
@PaleoInScotland. It sounds like you're a good example that we're indeed very individual and that doing anything with a medical diagnose is best to do with medical advisors on board. Just curious. Is the higher BG during fasting a result of the body mobilizing energy from stored fat? The body will convert as per need basis.1
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@Foamroller I'll let someone more knowledgeable on liver and pancreas science speak to specific details or studies. But as a 10-year diabetic, I can definitely attest to the fact that when you are diabetic your glucose and insulin management systems no longer perform "as per need basis" anymore unfortunately. They do whatever the heck they please. Stress is my biggest blood sugar enemy and it causes me more grief than carbs do. I can quit carbs, I can't quit working or afford to work at a job where I just play with puppies and kittens all day (they bring my stress levels way down
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I don't get Dawn Phenomenon, my blood glucose is spot on when I wake up in the morning, but I do get a huge spike in blood glucose about 3 hours after I wake up. If I eat (or inject fast acting insulin, which is not my preferred option), my blood glucose comes down. If I don't eat, it continues to go up and doesn't go back down to normal levels until about 24 hours later (as I discovered when trying a fast). The mid-morning spike on my 2nd day was even higher than the first. The levels that it rises to are not levels that I am comfortable with, even on a short term basis, so incorporating a day here and there of fasting doesn't make sense for me. As I said, I'm sure if I continued on and took it to a full 2 days and onto a 3rd or 4th, I'm quite sure things would eventually even out, but I have absolutely no desire to do that as a tiny shot of insulin and a small meal solves the blood sugar problem and allows me to maintain a weight loss diet that is sustainable on a long-term basis.4 -
Foamroller wrote: »@PaleoInScotland and @RalfLott. Even being able to reduce insulin alone is huge! The Taylor research flies directly in the face of current medical practice that T2D is a CHRONIC and PROGRESSIVE disease. Will everyone be able to follow such a strict protocol? Probably not. But for me personally, I rather try some uncomfortable fasting now to possibly prevent lifelong medications and serious injuries in 15 years. (I'm 45)
At least the dietary intervention gives us a CHOICE. I can't wait to see more studies whether fasting indeed helps T2D markers on more people! I'm always heartbroken listening to my mum, who says she "can't change stuff because it might interfere with her medicins".
Edit: T2D is the #1 reason of non accidental amputations in many countries. I'd say that is motivation to avoid.
Oh, yes! - keeping limbs, kidney function, eyesight, tactile sensation, years of your life - that's plenty enough motivation, whether the trade-off is as benign as following a strict diet (i.e., not eating poison) or something spicier, such as (per @Sunny_Bunny_ ) downing a daily dose of horse apples....
Ha! Yes! If horse apples were a cure for a terrible condition I were suffering, I'd salt and pepper that baby and get to chomping! Lol2 -
@PaleoInScotland fast raises my BG too. I tried it after reading The Obesity Code, it all makes so much sense, unfortunately my body doesn't agree.
I may give it another try because I've been gaining and losing the same 5lbs for 2 months and my fasting insulin is way too high (though less than half what it was a year ago). Fung makes a compelling case for obesity being an hormonal disease and for the need to lower insulin to lose weight sustainably. Unfortunately it looks like my insulin has come as low as it is going to go on LCHF. Bummer.
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For meat eaters (zero carb) you may want to check out the debate thread subject Can one live on only meat? Some good supporting links have been posted.
On the subject of Jason and others I think it reflects human behavior in general . I see ZERO difference in the leaders/followers of theology, politics or medicine.
Having worked in and/or studied farming, computer programming, tool and die, electronics and earned undergraduate degrees related to theology, psychology, biology and physics on the way to earning my OD degree now at the age of 65 I am really starting to grasp how ignorant I am with 12 years of butt in chair post high school classroom work.
Peer reviews in my experience are generally nothing more than egotistical old men trying to control the next generation. I for one am glad Einstein did not get limited by peer reviews.
Every youtube presentation on any subject contains false info and often it is by intent perhaps.
Any protocol by any diet doctor or wanted to be diet advisor is both valid and invalid in my view.
On the subject of BG levels we know there are a dozen or more hormones, etc that manage BG levels but we do not understand how they may impact any one human at anyone one time.
I grew up milking cows by hand. Mom put it into the frig in glass gallon jugs. 100% of the time the cream always rose to top of the jug of milk. That is how I deal with dieting info.
I do not worship any guru in any field of any subject but I will give most anyone an ear until it is proven in my mind they are willing to hurt anyone IF it puts $$$ into their pockets. That group cease to exist as far as I am concerned.
I like Jason and do think he can be hilarious even though he can been mistaken. I see him willing to learn new info from new resources and that is why he has my ear.
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I like fasting because it works for me.
I have Dawn phenomenom so my FBG is usually my highest of the day; thankfully it is not super high - just prediabetic levels of 5.5-6.0. It is still extremely annoying to me because when I started LCHF my FBG was normal for months; once I fat adapted my FBG went up to pre-dietary changes levels. Annoying. When I fast, whether it is from 6pm until the next day or for a day or two, my FBG comes right down to near perfect levels. I like fasting for that.
I also dislike fasting because it works for me. I like to eat later in the day. I don't start eating until the afternoon on most days so stopping by 6pm is inconvenient.... and less fun. I still don't do it most days.
To be honest, I find it easier to not eat for an entire day - just never start - than it is to stop 5 hours before bed time.
I also lose weight easier with fasting... darn it. I would have probably been a good test subject for Fung to use as an example. 2 -
Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
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PaleoInScotland wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Brilliant. Thxs for sharing. Listening got me through quite a long session on eliptical trainer and stretching. Interesting. Is this the study you are participating in?0
