Did keto mess me up ?
auntstephie321
Posts: 3,586 Member
I can't figure this out. Those of you that have read my threads might recall that I've struggled with the sodium loss when keto. I started lc March 2015 and went very low carb around April 2015. I had thought to do 30 days originally but someone here advised against that as that wouldn't give me enough time to get adapted.
I fully committed and would occasionally go a little higher in carbs but under 100g a day and must days under 40g . I did well and felt great. I supplemented sodium, and magnesium. After about six weeks I was finding that I would feel really drained and need sodium, I'd have pickle juice, salt water, broth etc and I'd feel great for about an hour or so then the symptoms would come back.
I gradually increased carbs and was staying regularly between 80-120 with fault exercise. I thought that would help to not create to many ketones therefore not keep flushing as much sodium out. But I found that I was still creating a good bit, as I can smell them and taste them.
So then I are freely for a bit to try to get back to normal. I also have low bp, always have. And I've always eaten lots of salt so I know this sodium thing isn't caused by my very low carb, it just made it more difficult to deal with.
I've gone back and forth with this now for a year and a half. I like being low carb, my belly feels good etc but I can't seem to get my body to keep sodium no matter what. Recently over the last several months I've tried very low carb again and after about a week I start having the same issues, must recently just a few weeks ago. So I've been eating higher amounts of carbs. But what's happening is, I'll eat carbs one day then that night I'm up constantly because I have to pee, I wake up and can barely open my eyes because they are dry, my lips are cracked and my skin dry and scaly. This does not make sense to me. If I'm eating carbs why am I not retaining water? Though I know I must be because I'm bloated and then the next day I'll pee a million times and then get a low sodium headache.
What the heck is wrong with me. How can I fix this. Should I go ultra low carb and pound sodium or stay higher carb and get sodium to see if it will regulate then gradually lower carbs?
I've tried googling to see if others had similar issues after keto but all I can find is what they recommend to replenish sodium loss and that isn't working for me. I'm hoping some of you might have some input.
I fully committed and would occasionally go a little higher in carbs but under 100g a day and must days under 40g . I did well and felt great. I supplemented sodium, and magnesium. After about six weeks I was finding that I would feel really drained and need sodium, I'd have pickle juice, salt water, broth etc and I'd feel great for about an hour or so then the symptoms would come back.
I gradually increased carbs and was staying regularly between 80-120 with fault exercise. I thought that would help to not create to many ketones therefore not keep flushing as much sodium out. But I found that I was still creating a good bit, as I can smell them and taste them.
So then I are freely for a bit to try to get back to normal. I also have low bp, always have. And I've always eaten lots of salt so I know this sodium thing isn't caused by my very low carb, it just made it more difficult to deal with.
I've gone back and forth with this now for a year and a half. I like being low carb, my belly feels good etc but I can't seem to get my body to keep sodium no matter what. Recently over the last several months I've tried very low carb again and after about a week I start having the same issues, must recently just a few weeks ago. So I've been eating higher amounts of carbs. But what's happening is, I'll eat carbs one day then that night I'm up constantly because I have to pee, I wake up and can barely open my eyes because they are dry, my lips are cracked and my skin dry and scaly. This does not make sense to me. If I'm eating carbs why am I not retaining water? Though I know I must be because I'm bloated and then the next day I'll pee a million times and then get a low sodium headache.
What the heck is wrong with me. How can I fix this. Should I go ultra low carb and pound sodium or stay higher carb and get sodium to see if it will regulate then gradually lower carbs?
I've tried googling to see if others had similar issues after keto but all I can find is what they recommend to replenish sodium loss and that isn't working for me. I'm hoping some of you might have some input.
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Are you diabetic? I ask because the symptoms you describe after eating carbs (frequent urination, not much moisture) is what happens when my BG is high. It leads to osmotic diuresis (basically, your kidneys draw a lot of moisture to remove excess glucose from blood). If you are having these symptoms after eating carbs, you should at least consider testing BG when this is happening to rule that out - even if you don't have diabetes (or are not aware that you do).3
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@midwesterner85 no I'm not diabetic, I do have insulin resistance but my bg numbers are normal now that I've lost weight. I actually bought a home meter back in the beginning when this happened, off someone's advice here and tested before eating and 1 hour and 2 hours after eating a carb heavy meal and my numbers were all normal1
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Have you tested when you are having these symptoms? You wake up having to pee and dry eyes, lips, skin... have you tested at that time?1
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midwesterner85 wrote: »Have you tested when you are having these symptoms? You wake up having to pee and dry eyes, lips, skin... have you tested at that time?
Not in the am, but when I tested last time I was having the symptoms. I wake up like that when I'm keto too but it's worse then.1 -
I'm anxious to hear what answers you get. I react similarly and can't quite seem to get the balance right. I'm pretty sure it has to do with hydration, but not sure exactly how to tweak things to make it right. I have really low blood pressure too and am not diabetic or pre-diabetic.
@midwesterner85 that is interesting, I didn't know that and will share it with my husband's aunt. She has advanced diabetes, at 87 yrs old, and was just complaining about that problem yesterday. This might help. (although I still can't convince her that dinner rolls and Ensure aren't healthy foods ~ ugggg.)1 -
@Riche120 I'm sorry you are going through this too, it's super frustrating. I swear I wish I could just get an iv every night lol and wake up hydrated. It's a difficult balance cuz when things are off no matter how much water I drink I pee it right out and then need more sodium. There were days I had 8000 mg, I'd feel good for a bit then need more.1
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It just really popped out at me - I'm type 1, so I'm on insulin and always will be. But if my BG is high, that is exactly what it is like. I get up to pee in the night. During the day, depending on how high my BG is, I might be urinating as often as every 4 min. (though that extreme has only been during DKA, which is not likely to be experienced by type 2's and is a life threatening medical emergency). And everything is dry from mouth to skin and lips and eyes too. I recognize those symptoms as indicators of hyperglycemia. I suppose it is truly the osmotic diuresis that causes those symptoms. I would think that flushing ketones would consume quite a bit of water as well, so the only additional suggestion is to increase water consumption. The part that makes the least sense about that is you are describing this as something that only happens after consuming carbs - high BG makes sense for that, but flushing ketones does not.2
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midwesterner85 wrote: »It just really popped out at me - I'm type 1, so I'm on insulin and always will be. But if my BG is high, that is exactly what it is like. I get up to pee in the night. During the day, depending on how high my BG is, I might be urinating as often as every 4 min. (though that extreme has only been during DKA, which is not likely to be experienced by type 2's and is a life threatening medical emergency). And everything is dry from mouth to skin and lips and eyes too. I recognize those symptoms as indicators of hyperglycemia. I suppose it is truly the osmotic diuresis that causes those symptoms. I would think that flushing ketones would consume quite a bit of water as well, so the only additional suggestion is to increase water consumption. The part that makes the least sense about that is you are describing this as something that only happens after consuming carbs - high BG makes sense for that, but flushing ketones does not.
It happens when both eating keto and eating carbs. I never had this issue before keto. The low bp yes, but not the dryness. Keto brought that about that's why I thought eating carbs would fix it, but it isn't working. And I can't see a pattern to it. Like yesterday was awful I had to pee constantly even though I was eating carbs, then this am I woke up dehydrated which I knew would happen even though I was drinking more salt water yesterday too. So now today I've eaten carbs again but haven't had to pee as much, I guess since I'm already dehydrated, but I also feel really puffy so I don't know.1 -
I'm puzzled - the only other thing I can think of is maybe you are getting too much sodium now. If it happens regardless of macro intake, maybe it is more about sodium than macros. Or something unrelated to diet altogether.2
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@auntstephie321 - Keep us posted, eh?
Could it possibly be an allergy, or an imbalance related to something other than sodium?1 -
LCHF is diuretic by its very nature so the large majority of people who try it will never reach a state where they won't have to supplement salt daily. That said, are you supplementing anything else like potassium, magnesium, calcium, etc.? I ask because the body needs potassium and sodium together to be able to use them property, just like it needs calcium and magnesium together to properly use them. If you are not supplementing potassium along with sodium, then you may need to look into doing so.7
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LCHF is diuretic by its very nature so the large majority of people who try it will never reach a state where they won't have to supplement salt daily. That said, are you supplementing anything else like potassium, magnesium, calcium, etc.? I ask because the body needs potassium and sodium together to be able to use them property, just like it needs calcium and magnesium together to properly use them. If you are not supplementing potassium along with sodium, then you may need to look into doing so.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Sodium and potassium have a delicate balance. Most of us will do just fine with a dash or two of potassium salt a day along with what we get from foods, but in your case, it may be that you absolutely must have a certain minimum supplementation every single day.
Since you're getting the sodium you need and using magnesium, and I know you use potassium too, but maybe it's just not enough.
I always wonder about magnesium too. Have you switched to a higher absorbing form like magnesium chloride or carbonate yet? You may need to. AND, make sure to take the maximum you can tolerate. I know all this supplementation kinda seems overwhelming to take every day. I take several things and sometimes I feel like it's a whole job in itself. I hate taking a bunch of pills so I buy many things in powder form so I can just throw it in some water and take them all at once.
You may have a much higher magnesium need than you realize too. If you're taking citrate, which is commonly used as a laxative, even though it's not terribly absorbed, as compared to the other forms I mentioned, it isn't absorbed as well. That's why it makes a great laxative. You can reach the laxative effect at much much smaller doses than you would taking carbonate or chloride.
I actually thought I was taking about 800-1000mg of carbonate a day as my maximum tolerance but I just bought some new containers for my supplements and wrote the dosages on the jars and upon reading the packaging again, I realized my tolerance is more like 1600-2200mg a day! That's what I've been taking for months and just got mixed up I guess. When I was having constipation issues I was taking about 1000mg more than that even.
I don't seem to have hydration issues often and if I do it's only if I'm sweating or fasting longer than normal. A couple ounces of pickle juice a day (and some days I forget) seems to be enough sodium for me along with salty food. I also use potassium salt on everything I cook and add a dash to my supplement mixes.
I really wonder if more potassium and seriously more magnesium in a form that won't mess your stomach up while allowing you take more would make the difference.
The only other supplements I take that may help me with this balance is Vitamin C (ascorbic acid bulk powder) which I take a minimum of 10,000mg a day split in two doses. I'm not sure if it helps with this but it is another one of those things that the body can use waaaaaaaaay more of than we could ever supply by food and the symptom of overdose is loose stool so it's easy to determine your tolerance level. So, it may be a factor since it supports so many processes.
You've worked really hard trying to get your balance right. Maybe it's as simple as dosage and absorption...3 -
@auntstephie321 - I can tell you that if you're still taking the KAL magnesium glycinate - it does not absorb well for me at all. I tried it this time because it had more bang for the buck than my Doctor's Best brand - but the non-buffered, chelated for absorption stuff works well for me. I could feel the signs of deficiency returning within 2 days on the KAL - so I'm working through both of them for a time, but I do the keto-ade thing when dehydrated, too.
drlwilson.com/articles/adrenal_insufficiency.htm
suzycohen.com/articles/pots-how-salt-affects-your-blood-pressure/
suzycohen.com/articles/choline_bloodpressure_pots/
Did you ever look into this Choline, etc. issue? Oh, and apparently C is crucial for adrenal restoration.
Seems like adrenal deficiency can underlie it all, plus low stomach acid preventing you from breaking down and absorbing electrolytes, etc. Plus without sodium and stomach acid - you can't convert T4 to T3, so there's so much at play here.
Also, you have thyroid nodules, correct? Are you back on medication or still off it for that?? It can play in, too.
https://drhagmeyer.com/how-to-test-your-adrenal-glands-video-3/
afcvirden.com/adrenals.html
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I do supplement potassium and magnesium. @knitormiss I've done really well on the mag glycinate, but ran out yesterday and am looking into getting mag malate this time around. I also take a supplement that has mag, d3, k2, calcium, and c. When I'm keto or lower carb I make the ketoaid recipe with salt and the lite salt that has potassium and sodium, I also use it on my food. I've been taking the digestive enzymes for about, what 2 weeks now, I think to help with the low stomach acid.
I'm going to try to reset this week, especially after my weekend being hectic. I feel completely drained and dehydrated, having a glass of water with lite salt mixed in now. I just don't really get this whole thing, it seems rather ridiculous that I would actually need to highly supplement so many different things at incredibly high doses just to not be dehydrated.1 -
Well, I just recently had to seriously increase my uptake of all three, potassium, mag and sodium. I felt much the same as you, I was so frustrated, like man do I have to just eat salt? Now I'm taking 4000 potassium, 800 mag and feel best at around 7000 sodium. Some of us just need more. *shrug* now my headaches are gone, I don't dump water nearly as much, and my fatigue is better.3
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SuperCarLori wrote: »Well, I just recently had to seriously increase my uptake of all three, potassium, mag and sodium. I felt much the same as you, I was so frustrated, like man do I have to just eat salt? Now I'm taking 4000 potassium, 800 mag and feel best at around 7000 sodium. Some of us just need more. *shrug* now my headaches are gone, I don't dump water nearly as much, and my fatigue is better.
but why would I need to do that still even if I'm higher carb, when I never had the issue before I was low carb.
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Are you taking any supplements that may encourage detoxification? Are you drinking lemon water? This causes you to go more often.0
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Are you taking any supplements that may encourage detoxification? Are you drinking lemon water? This causes you to go more often.
no I'm not. and I've cut back on coffee to reduce the diuretic effect from that, I've also stopped drinking alcohol because if I do I wake up so incredible dehydrated, even worse than normal, at about 3 am, even if I only have one drink1 -
Honestly, @auntstephie321 - I think it has to do with the fact that issue was likely always there, underneath the carb heavy diet - and so once you uncovered it, it's there, period. I've found this to be true with a lot of my various messiness.
That being said, why do we have to supplement? Because something stupid like 85% of our food is GMO'd, uses horrific pesticides, antibiotics, and growth crap, the soil is depleted to levels that should have us moving to another planet, and everything is just total crap these days.
I'm finding that the supplements I am having to take to replace what is missing in my food is astounding. And an underlying deficiency that isn't blazingly obvious can literally nuke your attempts in everything else!! I feel like a social and science experiment almost daily anymore...
And the massive impact I'm having from the neurotransmitter stuff I'm playing with right now - it rivals the mental clarity and craving killers we get from keto... I swear, not having the sweets/carb compulsions I've lived with for as long as I can remember is ... frightening, to be frank.
That being said, with the insulin resistance, even if the glucose numbers are okay, along with hormones and stress, it can really crap on your health overall. I know the more either my IR or my hormones are wonky, it messes up EVERYTHING SINGLE OTHER THING, too. (hugs)2 -
@knitormiss I totally forgot about the neurotransmitter stuff, I still have to look into that. I should probably order today since I need mag too. what one to do you recommend0
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I do mine as all separate ones, so I can adjust the doses as needed, but essentially, l-tyrosine and 5-htp need to be in a ratio, or close to it - 500 mg tyrosine to 50 mg 5-htp. l-glutamine I like it separate, as it's the one that you can take more often for carb cravings. The 5-htp has co-factors of B6 and C, so Doctor's Best has a blend with both those in it. I also added the NAC for liver support, and take taurine and caffeine with the am formulas. Tried the taurine at night last night and was super restless...
I have a combo mostly of Doctor's Best brands and NOW brands... They seem to be the best bang for the buck, though my glutamine this time was Kaged or something... I got way more, and cut the formula in half... But it's really up to you, that formula you can buy that has most everything in it is 22 doses for like $45, so it's really a matter of what you're going for. For me, to have all the doses I can play with really set my mind at ease.
I started with just the basic 5-htp, l-tyrosine, and glutamine. I already took a B-complex with the B6 in it, and I already took C.... Just added the others in as I've gone... Let me know if you have specific questions or want more details!! Happy to help. It's been sincerely crazy - and the best part is that for most people with a deficiency, it seems that you only have to supplement for a short period of time, then your body picks up the slack, and may only need a periodic boost.
But I'm coming to understand how much dramatic deficiencies play in our health - until the big ones are leveled out, almost nothing else helps!!!
P.S. I have just been told that the tyrosine might worsen insomnia in some folks, but it seems to settle me pretty well but I am admittedly ADDish, so it might be the whole stimulant settles issue though taurine is supposed to be good at night and it totally is NOT for me, personally, so I'm checking into the GABA and such recommended by Asprey (@Sunny_Bunny_ has most of that reference materials)...1 -
auntstephie321 wrote: »SuperCarLori wrote: »Well, I just recently had to seriously increase my uptake of all three, potassium, mag and sodium. I felt much the same as you, I was so frustrated, like man do I have to just eat salt? Now I'm taking 4000 potassium, 800 mag and feel best at around 7000 sodium. Some of us just need more. *shrug* now my headaches are gone, I don't dump water nearly as much, and my fatigue is better.
but why would I need to do that still even if I'm higher carb, when I never had the issue before I was low carb.
I didn't say you need to do that, I was giving my personal perspective and experience.1 -
SuperCarLori wrote: »auntstephie321 wrote: »SuperCarLori wrote: »Well, I just recently had to seriously increase my uptake of all three, potassium, mag and sodium. I felt much the same as you, I was so frustrated, like man do I have to just eat salt? Now I'm taking 4000 potassium, 800 mag and feel best at around 7000 sodium. Some of us just need more. *shrug* now my headaches are gone, I don't dump water nearly as much, and my fatigue is better.
but why would I need to do that still even if I'm higher carb, when I never had the issue before I was low carb.
I didn't say you need to do that, I was giving my personal perspective and experience.
lol, oh I know you were giving your experience. I just wonder why I'm seeming to need to, knit kinda answered it. but its irritating to me
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@auntstephie321 - To me, too!?!?!?!! I speak so often out of frustration, like why the HADES is this happening to me? Then I remember how often these questions come up, and I'm kind of oddly thankful not to be suffering alone. Maybe we can all trigger a revolution to get real food back?!?!?
@SuperCarLori - I think Steph was just sharing her frustration with us - WHY MEEEEEEE? when faced with facts that make sense and still suck!2 -
Yeah, I was just letting her/you know that you're not alone. I don't get butthurt. *shrugs*
Although I've been known to flip the *kitten* switch at times.
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »@auntstephie321 - To me, too!?!?!?!! I speak so often out of frustration, like why the HADES is this happening to me? Then I remember how often these questions come up, and I'm kind of oddly thankful not to be suffering alone. Maybe we can all trigger a revolution to get real food back?!?!?
@SuperCarLori - I think Steph was just sharing her frustration with us - WHY MEEEEEEE? when faced with facts that make sense and still suck!
yeah that's why I want to be able to grow my own food and do it right, hopefully someday i'll be able to grow more than a few zucchini. though I do have about 17 million cherry tomatoes so I did something right lol4 -
How's this for a humdinger? Norepinephrine deficiency can CAUSE LOW BLOOD PRESSURE.... What the WHAT?!?! I happened to notice this on a reference page I still had up just now. So supping it can actually help with all of this issue, maybe???1
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The sympathetic effects of norepinephrine include:
[*] In the heart, an increase in the amount of blood pumped.[13]
[*] In brown adipose tissue, an increase in calories burned to generate body heat.[14]
[*] Multiple effects on the immune system. The sympathetic nervous system is the primary path of interaction between the immune system and the brain, and several components receive sympathetic inputs, including the thymus, spleen, and lymph nodes. However the effects are complex, with some immune processes activated while others are inhibited.[15]
[*] In the arteries, constriction of blood vessels, causing an increase in blood pressure.[16]
[*] In the kidneys, release of renin and retention of sodium in the bloodstream.[17]
[*] In the liver, an increase in production of glucose, either by glycogenolysis after a meal or by gluconeogenesis when food has not recently been consumed.[17] Glucose is the body's main energy source in most conditions.
[*] In the pancreas, increased release of glucagon, a hormone whose main effect is to increase the production of glucose by the liver.[17]
[*] In skeletal muscles, an increase in glucose uptake.[17]
[*] In adipose tissue (i. e., fat cells), an increase in lipolysis, that is, conversion of fat to substances that can be used directly as energy sources by muscles and other tissues.[17]
[*] In the stomach and intestines, a reduction in digestive activity. This results from a generally inhibitory effect of norepinephrine on the enteric nervous system, causing decreases in gastrointestinal mobility, blood flow, and secretion of digestive substances.[18]
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Sodium RETENTION in the blood - increased blood pressure??? Sound good for low BP folks!3
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what the heck is norepinephrine, ugh good grief, my body is just broken0
