Did keto mess me up ?
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It's one of the neurotransmitters...and honey, I think we are all broken!!! If we can start fixing some things, though, sanity can return, in some small doses!!!!0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »The sympathetic effects of norepinephrine include:
[*] In the heart, an increase in the amount of blood pumped.[13]
[*] In brown adipose tissue, an increase in calories burned to generate body heat.[14]
[*] Multiple effects on the immune system. The sympathetic nervous system is the primary path of interaction between the immune system and the brain, and several components receive sympathetic inputs, including the thymus, spleen, and lymph nodes. However the effects are complex, with some immune processes activated while others are inhibited.[15]
[*] In the arteries, constriction of blood vessels, causing an increase in blood pressure.[16]
[*] In the kidneys, release of renin and retention of sodium in the bloodstream.[17]
[*] In the liver, an increase in production of glucose, either by glycogenolysis after a meal or by gluconeogenesis when food has not recently been consumed.[17] Glucose is the body's main energy source in most conditions.
[*] In the pancreas, increased release of glucagon, a hormone whose main effect is to increase the production of glucose by the liver.[17]
[*] In skeletal muscles, an increase in glucose uptake.[17]
[*] In adipose tissue (i. e., fat cells), an increase in lipolysis, that is, conversion of fat to substances that can be used directly as energy sources by muscles and other tissues.[17]
[*] In the stomach and intestines, a reduction in digestive activity. This results from a generally inhibitory effect of norepinephrine on the enteric nervous system, causing decreases in gastrointestinal mobility, blood flow, and secretion of digestive substances.[18]
Interesting...hmmmm...2 -
@KnitOrMiss WOW! thank you for posting the info on norepinephrine. I just looked it up and think that may be a part of my problem. I would have never come up with that.
Also what is the safe amount of potassium to take? Most supplements don't have much and I've read too much can be bad for your heart.2 -
Not sure I understand your question, but it sounds like you're wondering about the differences in the timing of effects of sodium, fluids, and carbs.
Honestly, I don't know, but the more I learn about this stuff, the more I appreciate the complexity.
Sodium itself is pretty simple. You know about osmosis, right? Higher concentrations of sodium in the blood cause an immediate change in blood volume due to the fluid shift from cells to blood.
That's why blood-volume-related symptoms (e.g., headaches, fatigue, light-headedness) are relieved pretty quickly after sodium intake.
But the excretion of fluid and sodium is slower and is controlled by multiple hormones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrial_natriuretic_peptide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasopressin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin–angiotensin_system
The net result? The sodium you're peeing out reflects your sodium intake from about 4 days ago!
Carb intake further complicates the picture. You know about the simple acid-base effects of ketones. The ketone effects seem to be pretty quick, but the changes in acid-base regulation are slower. Ammonium production has an effect, and that seems to take about a week. Uric acid also has an effect, and that seems to take longer -- maybe three months to establish homeostasis after going low carb.
Insulin has an effect too, and the most interesting effects are mediated by enzymes in the gut and kidneys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-glucose_transport_proteins
So, if you're asking how sodium, fluid, and carb intake affects sodium and fluid excretion, the answer is ... it depends.
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Honestly, @auntstephie321 - I think it has to do with the fact that issue was likely always there, underneath the carb heavy diet - and so once you uncovered it, it's there, period. I've found this to be true with a lot of my various messiness.
That being said, why do we have to supplement? Because something stupid like 85% of our food is GMO'd, uses horrific pesticides, antibiotics, and growth crap, the soil is depleted to levels that should have us moving to another planet, and everything is just total crap these days.
I'm finding that the supplements I am having to take to replace what is missing in my food is astounding. And an underlying deficiency that isn't blazingly obvious can literally nuke your attempts in everything else!! I feel like a social and science experiment almost daily anymore...
And the massive impact I'm having from the neurotransmitter stuff I'm playing with right now - it rivals the mental clarity and craving killers we get from keto... I swear, not having the sweets/carb compulsions I've lived with for as long as I can remember is ... frightening, to be frank.
That being said, with the insulin resistance, even if the glucose numbers are okay, along with hormones and stress, it can really crap on your health overall. I know the more either my IR or my hormones are wonky, it messes up EVERYTHING SINGLE OTHER THING, too. (hugs)
The bolded, indeed.
Keto didn't cause the dumbass Sjogren's I have. I'm pretty sure my DNA was coded to make it wake up in my late 30s, period. And now that I look back on it, I can see the slow manifestation of the symptoms. In hindsight. It was there for awhile, but I just didn't know what I was looking for.
I eat healthy. I exercise and am fit. But I still feel like *kitten* most of the time.
WHAT THE FLIPPIN HELL, right?
It's so disappointing when you've made everything right, but you still feel wrong. Hang in there.
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@KnitOrMiss WOW! thank you for posting the info on norepinephrine. I just looked it up and think that may be a part of my problem. I would have never come up with that.
Also what is the safe amount of potassium to take? Most supplements don't have much and I've read too much can be bad for your heart.
@Riche120 - I'm inclined to believe that when we eat carbs to excess with already potentially damaged metabolisms, we mess up all sorts of things that it takes us forever to figure out because so many symptoms of things overlap, etc. Make sure you check into supplementing this in a balanced way, and so many co-factors involved, that it's a widespread type of deficiency, I think... Supplementing with these amino acids has really made so much difference in my ability to cope with stress, with less cravings, less stress eating, and frankly, more sanity...
As for the potassium, it really depends. Some people can add quite a bit. Others can't add any. I would probably get your levels evaluated - or start really slow, then increased to side effects, then lower until resolved or something... That's pretty much my theory on most supplements. But with potassium, it can be scary. Low and high levels can have similar side effects... I just focus on magnesium, and once I'm level with it, if I feel bad, that's when I add a bit of potassium, but most dark greens and dark meats have reasonable potassium. The USDA's site has levels listed. Potassium is not required to be listed on US labels, and so you may be getting more already than you think... A quick google can also show high potassium foods.3 -
ok as of right now this is my order @knitormiss am I missing anything?
Doctor's Best High Absorption 100% Chelated Magnesium -- 240 Tablets
Jarrow Formulas Bifidus Balance® plus FOS -- 5 billion - 100 Capsules
NOW Foods 5-HTP -- 50 mg - 90 Veg Capsules
NOW L-Tyrosine -- 500 mg - 120 Capsules
Vitacost Choline & Inositol -- 100 Capsules
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The 5-htp from DB has the cofactors in it already (B6 and C) and it's 100 mg...
but I'd add l_glutamine - I got the Kaged one ($7.50 for 300 capsules, it says 2 capsules per serving, but that's for weight lifting, for cravings, etc., I do 1 at a time, 2-4 times a day.)
And I get the NOW l-tyrosine that's 750 mg, but 500 mg is a good start.
The choline I haven't researched, and that probiotic was working well for you already, right?
And you do need FOLATE if you aren't already taking it...400-1000 mg 1-2 times a day. Already taking B-Complex, right? I take it with extra folate.
C if you're working to max it out...
I take the NAC with cofactors, but I didn't add that right at first.1 -
auntstephie321 wrote: »I do supplement potassium and magnesium. @knitormiss I've done really well on the mag glycinate, but ran out yesterday and am looking into getting mag malate this time around. I also take a supplement that has mag, d3, k2, calcium, and c. When I'm keto or lower carb I make the ketoaid recipe with salt and the lite salt that has potassium and sodium, I also use it on my food. I've been taking the digestive enzymes for about, what 2 weeks now, I think to help with the low stomach acid.
I'm going to try to reset this week, especially after my weekend being hectic. I feel completely drained and dehydrated, having a glass of water with lite salt mixed in now. I just don't really get this whole thing, it seems rather ridiculous that I would actually need to highly supplement so many different things at incredibly high doses just to not be dehydrated.
A helpful tidbit I learned in Anatomy and Physiology: Calcium and Magnesium are absorbed by the same receptor sites on the cells of our digestive tract. If at all possible you should not take them at the same time because they will compete for absorption and one will not make it. Try taking Calcium and Mag at least 4 hrs apart.4 -
Whoa, what? I thought you were supposed to take cal-mag together. Huh.
OP I have no useful advice for you (though I'm learning a lot from this thread). Just wanted to say I hope you're able to get it figured out soon!2 -
macchiatto wrote: »Whoa, what? I thought you were supposed to take cal-mag together. Huh.
OP I have no useful advice for you (though I'm learning a lot from this thread). Just wanted to say I hope you're able to get it figured out soon!
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/calcium-supplements/faq-20058238
Relevant part: It's also a good idea to take your calcium supplements at a different time from your multivitamin or an iron-rich meal. Calcium may not be absorbed as well if it's taken at the same time as iron, zinc or magnesium.
This would lead me to believe that the inverse can also be true, as it clearly indicates competition for absorption.0 -
If it wasn't mentioned on here already and I missed it, Epsom salts are magnesium. Since the digestive tract is bypassed and absorption is directly through the skin, it is well tolerated. I soak my feet periodically to supplement my oral magnesium. My DH takes his bath in them and soaks for an hour or two (I'm not that patient, lol).3
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auntstephie321 wrote: »I do supplement potassium and magnesium. @knitormiss I've done really well on the mag glycinate, but ran out yesterday and am looking into getting mag malate this time around. I also take a supplement that has mag, d3, k2, calcium, and c. When I'm keto or lower carb I make the ketoaid recipe with salt and the lite salt that has potassium and sodium, I also use it on my food. I've been taking the digestive enzymes for about, what 2 weeks now, I think to help with the low stomach acid.
I'm going to try to reset this week, especially after my weekend being hectic. I feel completely drained and dehydrated, having a glass of water with lite salt mixed in now. I just don't really get this whole thing, it seems rather ridiculous that I would actually need to highly supplement so many different things at incredibly high doses just to not be dehydrated.
A helpful tidbit I learned in Anatomy and Physiology: Calcium and Magnesium are absorbed by the same receptor sites on the cells of our digestive tract. If at all possible you should not take them at the same time because they will compete for absorption and one will not make it. Try taking Calcium and Mag at least 4 hrs apart.
I've been told that if you EAT calcium rich foods, it's okay, but any calcium pills/supplements should only be taken at night, 2 hours away from EVERYTHING ever. Too much calcium leads to cluttering of the arteries without the co-factors and even then can lead to toxicity without the balancing items. It is super rare to need a calcium supplement. Most of us just need the co-factors to properly absorb when we intake it...0 -
If it wasn't mentioned on here already and I missed it, Epsom salts are magnesium. Since the digestive tract is bypassed and absorption is directly through the skin, it is well tolerated. I soak my feet periodically to supplement my oral magnesium. My DH takes his bath in them and soaks for an hour or two (I'm not that patient, lol).
@suzqtme - and you can't overabsorb it that way, either. Your body will only absorb the mag it needs in epsom salt baths/foot soaks.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »If it wasn't mentioned on here already and I missed it, Epsom salts are magnesium. Since the digestive tract is bypassed and absorption is directly through the skin, it is well tolerated. I soak my feet periodically to supplement my oral magnesium. My DH takes his bath in them and soaks for an hour or two (I'm not that patient, lol).
@suzqtme - and you can't overabsorb it that way, either. Your body will only absorb the mag it needs in epsom salt baths/foot soaks.
I don't know how much you absorb though or how long you need to soak, I takes lots of baths and use Epsom salt but i still need a supplement0 -
How much salts do you use per the tub, though? I'll google on the flip side.0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »How much salts do you use per the tub, though? I'll google on the flip side.
2 cups0 -
@KnitOrMiss well I was too impatient for your reply earlier and ordered the stuff listed plus more liquid d3 for Tony. I'll start with those and go from there, the choline was cheap so no biggie if I don't take it. Plus they were all 20% off on vitacost plus few shipping. I never tried that probiotic cuz they didn't cold ship so I returned it. This one comes with a cold pack1
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I've never looked into it to verify but I had a doctor who advised to be careful with Epsom salt baths because if you majevthe water too dilute it can actually leech the magnesium OUT of your body.
He did say the solution in the packaging was sufficient.
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auntstephie321 wrote: »@KnitOrMiss well I was too impatient for your reply earlier and ordered the stuff listed plus more liquid d3 for Tony. I'll start with those and go from there, the choline was cheap so no biggie if I don't take it. Plus they were all 20% off on vitacost plus few shipping. I never tried that probiotic cuz they didn't cold ship so I returned it. This one comes with a cold pack
@auntstephie321 - Sorry, hon...for whatever reason I have to go looking for notifications if I'm not on this screen already. I don't get forum notifications on my app at all... Next time hit me up any of the other ways you have to reach me....some of them are more instantaneous than others. LOL The choline simply said cannot hurt, from the research I've found, especially given your symptoms and such. It's annoying that underlying deficiencies seem to trigger a domino effect, but thank goodness we have crowdsourcing of info to save us from early demise!1 -
If your newest regime of supplements doesn't work I'd stop supplementing everything. The potassium, magnesium, digestive enzymes, d3, k2, calcium, and c. I'd also stop with the 8000mg days of sodium and anything else you've adopted due to keto - like the ketoaid and salt water drinks. Everything.
Give it a few days and see how you make out. Then see a doctor if needed and hear what they have to say.3 -
Oh, that is an awesome find, @KnitOrMiss! Very, very good stuff.
@SuperCarLori this might be the answer to the question we were asking last week in your newsfeed.2 -
Majcolorado wrote: »Oh, that is an awesome find, @KnitOrMiss! Very, very good stuff.
@SuperCarLori this might be the answer to the question we were asking last week in your newsfeed.
Very true.My symptoms have all but vanished now, so I'm thinking I was underelectrolyting...
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »auntstephie321 wrote: »@KnitOrMiss well I was too impatient for your reply earlier and ordered the stuff listed plus more liquid d3 for Tony. I'll start with those and go from there, the choline was cheap so no biggie if I don't take it. Plus they were all 20% off on vitacost plus few shipping. I never tried that probiotic cuz they didn't cold ship so I returned it. This one comes with a cold pack
@auntstephie321 - Sorry, hon...for whatever reason I have to go looking for notifications if I'm not on this screen already. I don't get forum notifications on my app at all... Next time hit me up any of the other ways you have to reach me....some of them are more instantaneous than others. LOL The choline simply said cannot hurt, from the research I've found, especially given your symptoms and such. It's annoying that underlying deficiencies seem to trigger a domino effect, but thank goodness we have crowdsourcing of info to save us from early demise!
lol its my own fault, I was ready to order so I did. I'm not know for my patience at times.1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »If your newest regime of supplements doesn't work I'd stop supplementing everything. The potassium, magnesium, digestive enzymes, d3, k2, calcium, and c. I'd also stop with the 8000mg days of sodium and anything else you've adopted due to keto - like the ketoaid and salt water drinks. Everything.
Give it a few days and see how you make out. Then see a doctor if needed and hear what they have to say.
I was going without anything for some time up until a couple of weeks ago when I started having the pain in my digestive system. I can't go more than a day without magnesium or I will get spasms in my upper back shoulders and neck and not be able to turn my head. I have gotten those spasms nearly all my life and never realized till I started supplementing mag for other reasons, that the mag resolved it. I don't normally supp potassium, that's only when I drop my carbs which I haven't done in a while, though I started yesterday to see if I could get myself back in check by properly supplementing everything. I've been to the dr numerous times for the digestive issues and they always always want to put me on omeprazole so that is not an option for me considering the digestive enzymes and probiotic have cleared things up. they've also told me that my low bp isn't a concern because it appears to be normal for me. I'm not willing to gain weight and eat high carb just so that I don't have to supplement sodium1 -
auntstephie321 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »If your newest regime of supplements doesn't work I'd stop supplementing everything. The potassium, magnesium, digestive enzymes, d3, k2, calcium, and c. I'd also stop with the 8000mg days of sodium and anything else you've adopted due to keto - like the ketoaid and salt water drinks. Everything.
Give it a few days and see how you make out. Then see a doctor if needed and hear what they have to say.
I was going without anything for some time up until a couple of weeks ago when I started having the pain in my digestive system. I can't go more than a day without magnesium or I will get spasms in my upper back shoulders and neck and not be able to turn my head. I have gotten those spasms nearly all my life and never realized till I started supplementing mag for other reasons, that the mag resolved it. I don't normally supp potassium, that's only when I drop my carbs which I haven't done in a while, though I started yesterday to see if I could get myself back in check by properly supplementing everything. I've been to the dr numerous times for the digestive issues and they always always want to put me on omeprazole so that is not an option for me considering the digestive enzymes and probiotic have cleared things up. they've also told me that my low bp isn't a concern because it appears to be normal for me. I'm not willing to gain weight and eat high carb just so that I don't have to supplement sodium
Absolutely understandable and you know yourself and medical conditions best. But something is clearly not right and electrolyte/sodium imbalances can be lethal. Please take care.6 -
thanks @AlabasterVerve we'll see what happens. I've always been reluctant to go to drs for anything. Im hoping this time around I can supplement enough to not have any issue and be more mindful of getting nutrient rich foods and not just living off of junk and alcohol. I wonder how much the alcohol caused issue for me when trying to balance my electrolytes, for the first 6 weeks keto I didn't drink at all, but every attempt since then I have1
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On day 4 of well under 100g carbs daily. I can taste the ketones and today wad the first day in a while I didn't finish my lunch because I was full so I know I'm in ketosis to some degree.
So far so good, but overly dehydrated, same as before mostly, haven't dumped a lot of water either. I've been adding salt to my water and eating foods with potassium. Monday I did potassium supplements and potassium salt, I think it was too much cuz I got heart flutters at bedtime. Discovered my over abundance of cherry tomatoes is a good source of potassium sprinkled with a little light salt. Also I've had a good bit of bacon each day.
Fingers crossed I can keep this balance.3 -
@auntstephie321, how goes the battle?
In case you're interested, here's a fascinating vid on nutrigenomics - how your personal genetics affect your micronutrient absorption - by Rhonda Patrick. (The comments are pretty interesting, too.)
There's a good PDF available for free from her website as well - www.foundmyfitness.com.
https://youtu.be/qvNLNl7oJnM 0 -
@RalfLott thanks for the info, I'll have to watch it when I get a free second. the sodium thing appears to be going well, but yesterday being day 4 started the tummy issues and watery stool again, this happened two weeks ago as well after 4 days of very low carb. I never had this issue the first time so I don't know if its something that will pass, previously I increased carbs though that didn't seem to help a lot either until I started with the digestive enzymes and probiotics. I was hoping those two things would prevent it this time. I researched more on it last night and many state that it does pass after a few days or so, longer for some. Problem with waiting it out though is I'm worried i'll get my sodium balance off and not be able to get it back on track again.0
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