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November Q and A thread

SideSteel
SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
in Social Groups
Kicking this off one day early.

Got any quick questions and don't want to make your own thread? Drop them in here!
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Replies

  • deluxmary2000
    deluxmary2000 Posts: 981 Member
    Hmmm – maybe not a quick question, but here’s one I’ve been wondering about. I’ve heard this very general concept kicked around a lot on MFP: “Low reps for strength, high(er) reps for hypertrophy/aesthetics”. If this is true, why do so many people generically recommend SL 5x5, SS, etc for people starting out? Don’t you think that most people start lifting because they want to LOOK better, not because of an arbitrary amount of weight they want to be able to move? I dunno… just curious.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    deluxmary2000 wrote: »
    Hmmm – maybe not a quick question, but here’s one I’ve been wondering about. I’ve heard this very general concept kicked around a lot on MFP: “Low reps for strength, high(er) reps for hypertrophy/aesthetics”. If this is true, why do so many people generically recommend SL 5x5, SS, etc for people starting out? Don’t you think that most people start lifting because they want to LOOK better, not because of an arbitrary amount of weight they want to be able to move? I dunno… just curious.

    I really like this question a lot! Will answer this in detail shortly.
  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,488 Member
    Question? Woman planning bulk..short, moderate or long? Say woman has leaned down about all she can and can put on 12 or more pounds...person can bulk with no problem with fat gain...recommendation? Just curios my husband thinks the bulk should be broken up into cycles..I am wanting the best bang for my buck if you will..I do not have affirmative bf percentage but close to 19 after weigh in Sunday if I had to guess.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    RoxieDawn wrote: »
    Question? Woman planning bulk..short, moderate or long? Say woman has leaned down about all she can and can put on 12 or more pounds...person can bulk with no problem with fat gain...recommendation? Just curios my husband thinks the bulk should be broken up into cycles..I am wanting the best bang for my buck if you will..I do not have affirmative bf percentage but close to 19 after weigh in Sunday if I had to guess.

    I don't see a need to break it up provided that you're able to bulk at a slow pace and provided that you're not having any issues from a body image standpoint like tolerating fat gain.

    I do think it's a wise idea to go very slow and I'd probably stop around the 25-27% BF mark to avoid having a lengthy dieting phase and the possibility of nutrient partitioning getting slightly worse as you gain fat.
  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,488 Member
    edited November 2016
    SideSteel wrote: »
    RoxieDawn wrote: »
    Question? Woman planning bulk..short, moderate or long? Say woman has leaned down about all she can and can put on 12 or more pounds...person can bulk with no problem with fat gain...recommendation? Just curios my husband thinks the bulk should be broken up into cycles..I am wanting the best bang for my buck if you will..I do not have affirmative bf percentage but close to 19 after weigh in Sunday if I had to guess.

    I don't see a need to break it up provided that you're able to bulk at a slow pace and provided that you're not having any issues from a body image standpoint like tolerating fat gain.

    I do think it's a wise idea to go very slow and I'd probably stop around the 25-27% BF mark to avoid having a lengthy dieting phase and the possibility of nutrient partitioning getting slightly worse as you gain fat.

    This will be a clean bulk.. Oh god no body image problems in the least as far as fat gain goes as I leaned down just to do this bulk. I will reverse diet from my deficit for a few weeks and then add on surplus. I have been dieting since July so I am ready to start this.

    Can you explain the nutrient partitioning getting slightly worse? I just want to make sure what to expect or something I might need to change along the way..

    Out of @psulemon list of lifting programs, is there one that you would recommend for female with about 1 1/2 years lifting experience I understand I am still a beginner but which one I can build on from my experience? Maybe there was one I might want to look at more than others?

    I thank you so very much.. I usually do not post my own threads on the community and I debated asking for help.. thanks..!!! :)

  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    When you get fatter it may become slightly easier to gain fat, in theory.

    Here's an explanation from Lyle who understands it way better than I do:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-1.html/


    As far as programs honestly I'm a bit biased since I write programs but additionally its hard (for me anyway) to make a recommendation without knowing a lot of detail about the individual.

    Phat is good for people who enjoy and need a lot of volume, lyles GBR is a well balanced upper/lower, I am partial to DUP setups but that's not really a program, it's a method of periodization.

    I'm rambling....
  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,488 Member
    SideSteel wrote: »
    When you get fatter it may become slightly easier to gain fat, in theory.

    Here's an explanation from Lyle who understands it way better than I do:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-1.html/


    As far as programs honestly I'm a bit biased since I write programs but additionally its hard (for me anyway) to make a recommendation without knowing a lot of detail about the individual.

    Phat is good for people who enjoy and need a lot of volume, lyles GBR is a well balanced upper/lower, I am partial to DUP setups but that's not really a program, it's a method of periodization.

    I'm rambling....

    Rambling is certainly fine..

    I had to run out and while I was away, I said to myself I can hire a trainer, I am not limited in this aspect, and it will be worth it in the long run.

    Thanks for the link it helps immensely.. I am grateful for your responses!
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    RoxieDawn wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    When you get fatter it may become slightly easier to gain fat, in theory.

    Here's an explanation from Lyle who understands it way better than I do:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-1.html/


    As far as programs honestly I'm a bit biased since I write programs but additionally its hard (for me anyway) to make a recommendation without knowing a lot of detail about the individual.

    Phat is good for people who enjoy and need a lot of volume, lyles GBR is a well balanced upper/lower, I am partial to DUP setups but that's not really a program, it's a method of periodization.

    I'm rambling....

    Rambling is certainly fine..

    I had to run out and while I was away, I said to myself I can hire a trainer, I am not limited in this aspect, and it will be worth it in the long run.

    Thanks for the link it helps immensely.. I am grateful for your responses!

    Anytime!
  • StephieWillcox
    StephieWillcox Posts: 627 Member
    Super quick one - yesterday I started Wendler and did volume deadlifts which I have never done before (5 x 10 @ 50% except I can't add apparently and did the first set at 75% oops), today I am really sore in my upper back (shoulder blade/traps type areas).

    Is this normal? I have not experienced this soreness before when deadlifting, but then I've not done that much volume before. My forearms are also sore.

    Nothing "hurts" so it's not an injury, just general muscle soreness from working!
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,420 MFP Moderator
    SideSteel wrote: »
    So first off, in regards to rep ranges -- what we know right now is that hypertrophy seems to be largely driven by training volume. That is to say that when we equate volume the differences between higher and lower rep training become much less significant.

    However, strength is still largely impacted by loading % and thus rep range (heavier loads demand fewer reps by default).

    See here:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538
    http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/bodybuilding-vs-powerlifting-type-training-which-builds-more-strength-and-muscle/
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/effects-of-different-volume-equated-resistance-training-loading-strategies-on-muscular-adaptations-in-well-trained-men-research-review.html/

    Important takeaways would be that higher load training may tend to have slightly higher injury risk with it, and it takes a lot longer to accumulate volume.

    And so we can say that it's largely training volume that contributes to hypertrophy but higher rep ranges tend to make volume accumulation easier to accomplish.

    So with that out of the way, on to your question regarding SS and SL.

    I'm of the opinion that these programs are great for people looking to build a base of strength in some good compound lifts.

    However, I think these programs get recommended often in situations where it's not necessarily the right fit for the individual, however it's not necessarily due to rep ranges.

    As a general trend, people who are new to training require much lower total volume in order to cause adaptations (muscle growth or strength in this example). And so for most people I think a 5x5 is actually likely to be fine strictly from a volume perspective especially if they are appropriately accessorizing.

    But here's why I think for some people it's not a great recommendation:

    1) Greater up front investment in learning the skills of squatting and pressing and deadlifting. Not everyone is willing to take the time to learn these skills and that's completely understandable.
    2) High importance on actually following the program. This isn't a criticism of the program itself, but for example I think people tend to not deload properly, and they tend to stay with the program too long which makes every session a grind-fest. They get chronically under-recovered/over-fatigued and start to hate training.

    Who would it be good for? Someone who wants to get strong at the lifts used in those programs. Someone who is willing to learn how to squat/bench/deadlift properly. And if those conditions are met, I also think it's then appropriate for people looking to improve their physique since in the long term, getting good at those lifts and getting strong at those lifts will possibly translate into better progress.

    Finally, I have one former client who ran SL for 6 months and he blew up like a balloon (in a good way). Squat went from 135 to 335x5, Bench went to 230x5, Deads in the mid 300's.

    But this is a male in his 20s, good genetics, trains very hard, wanted to take the time to learn how to squat/bench/deadlift, eating in a small surplus. <---- drastically different context than the majority of forum users on MFP.

    Hopefully this rambling was useful, I really enjoyed this question!

    Great answer and hope you don't mind me adding the below video. It's another great sources to add to the sources you already discussed (for those more visual/audio type learners).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GenviIWIeqA
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    StephieWillcox wrote: »
    Super quick one - yesterday I started Wendler and did volume deadlifts which I have never done before (5 x 10 @ 50% except I can't add apparently and did the first set at 75% oops), today I am really sore in my upper back (shoulder blade/traps type areas).

    Is this normal? I have not experienced this soreness before when deadlifting, but then I've not done that much volume before. My forearms are also sore.

    Nothing "hurts" so it's not an injury, just general muscle soreness from working!

    Given how much volume this is, I wouldn't be surprised or alarmed.
  • ep4444
    ep4444 Posts: 8 Member
    Hello - I am wondering when to do cardio... before or after strength training? Does one wayhelp build muscle and the other to lose weight?

    Thanks.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    ep4444 wrote: »
    Hello - I am wondering when to do cardio... before or after strength training? Does one wayhelp build muscle and the other to lose weight?

    Thanks.

    I would do it based on goals and preferences. Generally speaking you will have slightly better performance in whichever one you do first.

    I USUALLY suggest resistance training first since people can typically still do a reasonable cardio session afterwards but the reverse isn't always true.

    However, you can base that on goals/preferences.
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    StephieWillcox wrote: »
    Super quick one - yesterday I started Wendler and did volume deadlifts which I have never done before (5 x 10 @ 50% except I can't add apparently and did the first set at 75% oops), today I am really sore in my upper back (shoulder blade/traps type areas).

    Is this normal? I have not experienced this soreness before when deadlifting, but then I've not done that much volume before. My forearms are also sore.

    Nothing "hurts" so it's not an injury, just general muscle soreness from working!

    Wow, yeah. If I tried 5x10 @ 75% deadlifts I'd probably die. If I survived I wouldn't be able to walk for a week, maybe two. So I think you're just fine, that's just a lunatic amount of work.
  • StephieWillcox
    StephieWillcox Posts: 627 Member
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    StephieWillcox wrote: »
    Super quick one - yesterday I started Wendler and did volume deadlifts which I have never done before (5 x 10 @ 50% except I can't add apparently and did the first set at 75% oops), today I am really sore in my upper back (shoulder blade/traps type areas).

    Is this normal? I have not experienced this soreness before when deadlifting, but then I've not done that much volume before. My forearms are also sore.

    Nothing "hurts" so it's not an injury, just general muscle soreness from working!

    Wow, yeah. If I tried 5x10 @ 75% deadlifts I'd probably die. If I survived I wouldn't be able to walk for a week, maybe two. So I think you're just fine, that's just a lunatic amount of work.

    Yeah... luckily I looked at my notes after the first set and was like... erm... why have I put an extra 20kg on the bar?! Oops. 5x10 @ 50% was much more reasonable!
  • jo_marnes
    jo_marnes Posts: 1,601 Member
    edited November 2016
    Question (ramble) here too!

    I am on week 5 of my powerlifting program - starting with hypertrophy phase so 4-5 sets of 10 or 12 reps for all exercises. Workouts are primarily squat, bench, DL, bench with accessories for each. I do combat (cardio) 2 x per week. I finished a not-very-successful cut prior to this - impacted by injury. Some fat loss but not much. Previously my workouts were similar in exercises but lower in volume and higher in weight. Cardio 3 x per week.

    For the powerlifting I have increased cals by approx. 300 per day (now at 1800 - 1900). I want to gain muscle and expect some weight gain but how much should I expect to gain over what timeframe? I don't want to just be gaining fat and end the 12 week program with loads of work to do to lose it again. The scales are already up a couple of lbs....

    I know I need to commit to the process but it's a real mental challenge coming from a weight loss background. I guess I'm really looking for reassurance but I don't want false hope - if I'm doing it wrong I'd rather know now!

    Thanks in advance
  • cajuntank
    cajuntank Posts: 924 Member
    edited November 2016
    jo_marnes wrote: »
    Question (ramble) here too!

    I am on week 5 of my powerlifting program - starting with hypertrophy phase so 4-5 sets of 10 or 12 reps for all exercises. Workouts are primarily squat, bench, DL, bench with accessories for each. I do combat (cardio) 2 x per week. I finished a not-very-successful cut prior to this - impacted by injury. Some fat loss but not much. Previously my workouts were similar in exercises but lower in volume and higher in weight. Cardio 3 x per week.

    For the powerlifting I have increased cals by approx. 300 per day (now at 1800 - 1900). I want to gain muscle and expect some weight gain but how much should I expect to gain over what timeframe? I don't want to just be gaining fat and end the 12 week program with loads of work to do to lose it again. The scales are already up a couple of lbs....

    I know I need to commit to the process but it's a real mental challenge coming from a weight loss background. I guess I'm really looking for reassurance but I don't want false hope - if I'm doing it wrong I'd rather know now!

    Thanks in advance

    Just throwing this out there as Dr. Israetel mentioned this in a Facebook post a while back. He also answered a few follow up questions people posted, so might be of interest to you.

    https://www.facebook.com/michael.israetel/posts/10105895525251953
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    jo_marnes wrote: »
    Question (ramble) here too!

    I am on week 5 of my powerlifting program - starting with hypertrophy phase so 4-5 sets of 10 or 12 reps for all exercises. Workouts are primarily squat, bench, DL, bench with accessories for each. I do combat (cardio) 2 x per week. I finished a not-very-successful cut prior to this - impacted by injury. Some fat loss but not much. Previously my workouts were similar in exercises but lower in volume and higher in weight. Cardio 3 x per week.

    For the powerlifting I have increased cals by approx. 300 per day (now at 1800 - 1900). I want to gain muscle and expect some weight gain but how much should I expect to gain over what timeframe? I don't want to just be gaining fat and end the 12 week program with loads of work to do to lose it again. The scales are already up a couple of lbs....

    I know I need to commit to the process but it's a real mental challenge coming from a weight loss background. I guess I'm really looking for reassurance but I don't want false hope - if I'm doing it wrong I'd rather know now!

    Thanks in advance

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alCOsqNu2ZA&amp;feature=youtu.be
  • jo_marnes
    jo_marnes Posts: 1,601 Member
    ^^ Thank you!
This discussion has been closed.

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