December Q and A thread

124

Replies

  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    ryry_ wrote: »
    I don't know if you remember but I have forever been having bench issues due to torn labrum in left shoulder. I also recently had an AC joint separation in my right shoulder. Moving hands closer together actually seems to aggravate shoulder more and give me bad wrist pain.

    Recently after coming back from AC thing, I started to do the equivalent ROM of floor presses. I'm not actually on the floor but I stop at that equivalent where my arms are parallel to the ground. I feel no shoulder or wrist discomfort and still 'feel' a pretty good contraction in my chest.

    What am i losing if I adopt this going forward (no interest in competing) and what do I need to be cognizant of?

    When you say "what am I losing if I adopt this going forward" what are you comparing it to?

    As far as what to be cognizant of, this is one of those things where, due to lack of knowledge on my part combined with scope of practice, I would default to physical therapist recommendations as far as limitations go. I would additionally make sure that you're staying pain free with your exercise selections.

    One minor concern is that doing this on a bench without safeties is that you have the possibility of not stopping at the proper ROM and I suppose that could be a potential injury (can't say that with certainty of course) and so floor pressing in a rack would allow you to set safeties at an appropriate height, or allow you to do pin presses.
  • StephieWillcox
    StephieWillcox Posts: 627 Member
    SideSteel wrote: »

    Just wanted to say that this was awesome.

    I couldn't watch it with sound because my iPhone has apparently decided that the toggle button on the side is meaningless so I used the auto generated subtitles and they were excellent!

    I am one of the nitpickers on the form thread, it's hard to accept that after all these years of people saying that your form must be good, the weights get heavy enough that it simply can't be all the time. Hard one to let go of I think.
  • nossmf
    nossmf Posts: 8,450 Member
    I don't compete, I stop the bar a couple inches off my chest because it saves me hurting my shoulder (again). My chest development is better now than it's ever been.
  • ryry_
    ryry_ Posts: 4,966 Member
    edited December 2016
    nossmf wrote: »
    I don't compete, I stop the bar a couple inches off my chest because it saves me hurting my shoulder (again). My chest development is better now than it's ever been.

    Thanks for the feedback. I am currently pain free doing it this way so i will likely continue. I'll look into the pin presses but I'm not sure that set up would work at my gym.

    My main concern is would my chest development suffer, which is kind of a stupid question to ask the more I think about it because it alread suffers bc I'm always tweaking my shoulder benching.
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    edited December 2016
    ryry_ wrote: »
    I don't know if you remember but I have forever been having bench issues due to torn labrum in left shoulder. I also recently had an AC joint separation in my right shoulder. Moving hands closer together actually seems to aggravate shoulder more and give me bad wrist pain.

    Recently after coming back from AC thing, I started to do the equivalent ROM of floor presses. I'm not actually on the floor but I stop at that equivalent where my arms are parallel to the ground. I feel no shoulder or wrist discomfort and still 'feel' a pretty good contraction in my chest.

    What am i losing if I adopt this going forward (no interest in competing) and what do I need to be cognizant of?

    I'm not a doctor and I'm not sidesteel but this is my opinion on the matter:

    I PERSONALLY believe that doing partial ROM bench press with nothing to stop the eccentric (IE: NOT a board press, pin press, floor press, etc, just a normal bench but not touching your chest) can actually be MORE injurious than full ROM bench presses. There's a couple reasons behind this but I generally would absolutely not recommend partial bench presses to anyone, injured or otherwise.

    PERSONALLY I think someone who is constantly tweaking shiz up on bench press is likely using poor technique and this ends up being the root of all problems. I speak from personal experience on this one. Using correct technique and sticking to it at all times would solve a LOT of problems for a lot of people, IMO.

    So having said that, my suggestions (in order of importance) would be:

    1) Work with a PT to rehab whatever injuries you may have (or research some good sources on how to diagnose and rehab on your own if you're so inclined).
    2) Work with a pro or research proper technique and practice it over and over and over. Even just getting technique advice in the form critique thread could help you a lot.
    3) Get something like a Slingshot that takes a LOT of strain off of your shoulders at the bottom of the movement. It's pretty much designed for this purpose, for people with banged up shoulders. It provides elastic assistance at the bottom of the movement so you can do full ROM without putting as much emphasis on painful part of the bench press.

    A final note, if you're worried about chest development, partial bench press is pretty much the worst thing you can do. Partial bench presses used in training, in the form of say board presses, put most of the emphasis on the triceps and not the chest. The chest is more involved lower in the movement. Just the icing on the cake for reasons not to do partials.
  • nossmf
    nossmf Posts: 8,450 Member
    edited December 2016
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    I PERSONALLY believe that doing partial ROM bench press with nothing to stop the eccentric (IE: NOT a board press, pin press, floor press, etc, just a normal bench but not touching your chest) can actually be MORE injurious than full ROM bench presses. There's a couple reasons behind this but I generally would absolutely not recommend partial bench presses to anyone, injured or otherwise.

    Just to play devil's advocate here, but how are bench presses where the bar touches the chest different? Are you considering the chest to be "something to stop the eccentric?" Since bouncing the bar off the chest is generally frowned upon, you still have to exert muscle power to stop the downward motion of the bar, whether you stop the bar a couple inches above the chest or just grazing the chest. What's the difference?
  • _benjammin
    _benjammin Posts: 1,224 Member
    @ryry_
    Why not get surgery? A torn labrum will not heal. I had labrum (Bankroft and SLAP) and rotator cuff surgery 2 years ago, at 41 years old (which is beyond the Standard Care Practice age of 40), and made 100% recovery.
    The only thing I know about AC I just read here:
    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/92337-overview#a3
    Surgery rehab was long and frustrating but worthwhile.
    If you aren't dealing with daily pain or limited in everyday activities, I would never bench again. My rehab included only neutral grip push and pull exercises for nearly a year. You might be "safer" doing only neutral grip exercises.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    Just to add to Ben's reply above, he is now back to benching like a bad *kitten* and he has competed in powerlifting post surgery and rehab.
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    edited December 2016
    nossmf wrote: »
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    I PERSONALLY believe that doing partial ROM bench press with nothing to stop the eccentric (IE: NOT a board press, pin press, floor press, etc, just a normal bench but not touching your chest) can actually be MORE injurious than full ROM bench presses. There's a couple reasons behind this but I generally would absolutely not recommend partial bench presses to anyone, injured or otherwise.

    Just to play devil's advocate here, but how are bench presses where the bar touches the chest different? Are you considering the chest to be "something to stop the eccentric?" Since bouncing the bar off the chest is generally frowned upon, you still have to exert muscle power to stop the downward motion of the bar, whether you stop the bar a couple inches above the chest or just grazing the chest. What's the difference?

    Yes, the chest stops the bar, whether it be touch-n-go or paused, it's still a physical barrier.

    Honestly, anecdotally most of the people I've known to get hurt on bench were doing partials. Maybe it was because it was more weight than they could handle full ROM (which is one of the major reasons, perhaps even the primary reason I think it's a terrible idea) but all the more reason to avoid, IMO.

    Think of it this way, lets say you are doing partial bench presses with I dunno, 3 plates. You always do partials, maybe 75% of normal ROM. You aren't used to using full ROM ever anymore. Then you decide to hit a new 1RM, or simply try to rep out a new rep max, or hell you're just feeling like crap that day and you're weaker than normal. In your fatigue you drop the bar past 75% ROM and now your completely untrained part of ROM is trying to handle 315 (or whatever amount of heavy weight). That's how injuries happen, IMO. By using the chest as a stopping point, it will always be the same stopping point.

    IMO, that's why (or at least one of the major reasons why) partial presses that work on sticking points and such, always use a solid stopping point regardless, whether it be boards or pins or a pad.

    Altogether, I think you're playing with fire doing partials. At least use a slingshot or a board/pin/pad. I'd still rather fix whatever's broken (injury or technique or both) but at least it's an option that isn't likely to risk further injury.

    Again, this is my opinion and my experience.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    edited December 2016
    Also the difference to what muscles are engaged between full and partial ROM when you stop the drop and reverse.

    I just went and tested, and feel the shoulders engaged much more on half way down, compared to pecs at all the way.

    That could have merely to do with location of the bar above the body, I'll need to video to see if the same bar path is followed on both drops.

    But perhaps someone could get good at aiming the partial to a location that engages the chest more than the shoulders for that spot.

    Or perhaps my drop isn't correct and even though going full, it should be different path on way down.
    Then again, my forearms are longer than average for arm length, throwing off the fulcrum points compared to normal.
  • nossmf
    nossmf Posts: 8,450 Member
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    At least use a slingshot or a board/pin/pad.

    The slingshot is one of those bench-press shirts which forces your arms forward, right? Beyond the expense, aren't they designed more for 1RM attempts rather than hypertrophy?
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    nossmf wrote: »
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    At least use a slingshot or a board/pin/pad.

    The slingshot is one of those bench-press shirts which forces your arms forward, right? Beyond the expense, aren't they designed more for 1RM attempts rather than hypertrophy?

    Slingshot is a cheaper accessory designed/marketed by Mark Bell.

    It "sort of" pulls your elbows in and forces you to tuck at the bottom, at least based on what I've seen, which isn't much tbh.

    I Know a guy who used to use one in the gym, so I only base this on watching him, never actually looked into it.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    EDollah wrote: »
    I just wanted to drop a short note to thank Patrick for his time and heartily urge anyone thinking about securing his services but are sitting on the fence about making it happen, that it's well worth it.

    Patrick provided some feedback I was immediately able to put into use for form improvement on some of the basic lifts as well as helping refine my goals and tactics to reach them. I'm looking forward to continuing work with him in the future.

    * Note- no incentive was provided for this message, I just wanted to rep the man for his good work.

    Thanks! *


    * - Your Eat, Train, Progress shill bucks are in the mail.


    (Seriously though, thank you I do appreciate the positive feedback)
  • ryry_
    ryry_ Posts: 4,966 Member
    Thanks for the replies and message received. I will cut it out with the partials. And yes my primary concern is chest development. As to why I am still benching, funny story. I quit benching and everything was fine with DB chest benching until I went up in weight and I failed on my third set getting the weight into position causing the ac issue.

    This was with a weight I was able to lift 10 reps on my first set and 8 on my second set.
  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    nossmf wrote: »
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    At least use a slingshot or a board/pin/pad.

    The slingshot is one of those bench-press shirts which forces your arms forward, right? Beyond the expense, aren't they designed more for 1RM attempts rather than hypertrophy?

    No to all of the above. It's just elastic that provides more assistance the closer to your chest. Bench operates in a normal ROM and technique, it just gives you help in the hardest part of the movement. Used for overload work or for rehab work for people with injuries who still want to bench full ROM.

    For overload work you'd use it to extend past your max levels. For example this week I plan on working up to a 335 bench, then 350 and 365 with the slingshot (weights I cannot do without).

    For rehab work, as mentioned it gives elastic assistance the closer you get to your chest which can take the strain off of injuries. Even something minor such as feeling a little banged up one week.

    And really it forces proper technique since it will more or less automatically make you tuck at the bottom (as you should always be doing regardless).

    Good for training, rehab and overload work, really. Can't go wrong. Probably the single best bench "toy" I have.
  • ryry_
    ryry_ Posts: 4,966 Member
    WHile humorous is this correct?

    Maybe I will try and get a video today and post it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRVjAtPip0Y
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    ryry_ wrote: »
    WHile humorous is this correct?

    Mostly, yes. But, there are a few things - such as hand/arm placement, foot positioning, and just how much back arch - that are up to personal preference. I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with the video - just that it's only one way of benching.

  • DopeItUp
    DopeItUp Posts: 18,771 Member
    My favorite recommendation is this series:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHx1gYTA-Rw

    Also Mark Bell has a lot of good stuff on benching as well.
  • nossmf
    nossmf Posts: 8,450 Member
    DopeItUp wrote: »
    For overload work you'd use it to extend past your max levels. For example this week I plan on working up to a 335 bench, then 350 and 365 with the slingshot (weights I cannot do without).

    Continuing my devil's advocate line of questions, this seems almost like a form of cheating, as the equipment appears to be lifting a portion of the weight, like claiming you benched x when the spotter had to help get the weight up by lifting the last 25#.

    I genuinely don't know, this has been a very insightful conversation.