Anyone with Hashi's or ANY Auto-Immune Condition...
KnitOrMiss
Posts: 10,103 Member
...would probably really benefit from the episode today in "The Thyroid Secret" documentary series. It's all about the gut and autoimmune reactions. thethyroidsecret.com It's active for another 3-4 hours. It's 12:32 pm central time currently.
Things I learned today:
Things I learned today:
- The gut is only a single cell layer thick - the skin alone is 7 layers thick!!!
- You can test NEGATIVE on antibodies tests and still have autoimmune thyroiditis.
- 90% of people have been exposed to or had a minor case of Epstein-Barr virus.
- The fluoride in our water alone can trigger an autoimmune reaction
- WOBENZYM is amazing, apparently! @GaleHawkins - you were ahead of the curve! Can cut Hashi's and Grave's antibodies by HALF using protocols.
- L-Glutamine helps in rebuilding gut lining...
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so glad I don't have fluoride in my water1
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Good info @KnitOrMiss.
We still buy Wobenzyme 800 count bottles 2-3 at the time for daily use making sure it is about 2 hours after eating and 1 hour before eating again to it can better get into the blood steam. If taken with food it is just a strong digestive enzyme package that should address any preexisting constipation later.
It was part of one of the many cancer protocols that I have self tested. It cost me a lot of money but I took 20 tables 4x daily for 30 days without any real side effects before the wife and a friend started using Wobenzyme per the label on the bottle.
It helped my joint pain and my friend states it really helps his gout. In cancer I read it strips off the cloaking layer that prevents the immune system from seeing it as a foreign body. Go to Amazon and other websites to read the reviews by others over time but do question what you read. I look for patterns that match up for all supplements that we use.
@tcunbeliever it is the Florine and Chlorine in the water when I eat out that concerns me more than the food.
At this point in time I think 99.9% of health issues starts with long term inflammation in the body. Anything that reduces one's C-reactive protein levels I see as being good. LCHF shut my pain levels greatly in just the first 30 days but I did not lose a pound until 45 days on this WOE.3 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »...would probably really benefit from the episode today in "The Thyroid Secret" documentary series. It's all about the gut and autoimmune reactions. thethyroidsecret.com It's active for another 3-4 hours. It's 12:32 pm central time currently.
Things I learned today:- The gut is only a single cell layer thick - the skin alone is 7 layers thick!!!
- You can test NEGATIVE on antibodies tests and still have autoimmune thyroiditis.
- 90% of people have been exposed to or had a minor case of Epstein-Barr virus.
- The fluoride in our water alone can trigger an autoimmune reaction
- WOBENZYM is amazing, apparently! @GaleHawkins - you were ahead of the curve! Can cut Hashi's and Grave's antibodies by HALF using protocols.
- L-Glutamine helps in rebuilding gut lining...
Can I get a AMEN!
Yep. These points also apply to other immune diseases as well. Thank the Lord, cuz someone is going crazy over here over there being no antibodies but still sick.
SAnd that somebody bought L-glutamine today. And is ordering the Wobenzym later.
I have a feeling I will be going temporarily paleo soon. Bleh.3 -
Thank you for sharing this. I'm listening to it today!baconslave wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »...would probably really benefit from the episode today in "The Thyroid Secret" documentary series. It's all about the gut and autoimmune reactions. thethyroidsecret.com It's active for another 3-4 hours. It's 12:32 pm central time currently.
Things I learned today:- The gut is only a single cell layer thick - the skin alone is 7 layers thick!!!
- You can test NEGATIVE on antibodies tests and still have autoimmune thyroiditis.
- 90% of people have been exposed to or had a minor case of Epstein-Barr virus.
- The fluoride in our water alone can trigger an autoimmune reaction
- WOBENZYM is amazing, apparently! @GaleHawkins - you were ahead of the curve! Can cut Hashi's and Grave's antibodies by HALF using protocols.
- L-Glutamine helps in rebuilding gut lining...
Can I get a AMEN!
Yep. These points also apply to other immune diseases as well. Thank the Lord, cuz someone is going crazy over here over there being no antibodies but still sick.
SAnd that somebody bought L-glutamine today. And is ordering the Wobenzym later.
I have a feeling I will be going temporarily paleo soon. Bleh.
That is me. I have only ever tested positive for celiac disease. I test negative for hashimoto's but my thyroid is almost non-functioning. I take 180mcg per day of natural desiccated thyroid, which is pretty much a full replacement dose... but according to one of my doctors I don't have hashi's... my thyroid just stopped working.
Same with ITP. No autoantibodies diagnosed there either, but my platelets were almost killed off.
And there is my joint issues. It's better with a GF diet but my joints feel more like a 70 year old's than a 40 year old's. I hurt most of the time, but I had no positive autoimmune tests for it. Not even elevated crp or ana (most of the time). It's maddening because without positive tests, most doctors won't do a thing.
L-glutamine is a celiac's friend. I was on that for the first few years while recovering. I think it helped.
And I had mono about 2-3 years before my arthritis and thyroid issues started. I doubt it was coincidence.2 -
Hashi's runs in my family but I've never be diagnosed or had issues, I keep on top of my thyroid nutrition...when I was mid-20s I started having constant joint pain...no swelling, no sign of arthritis in xrays, no problems on blood tests, but something has to be wrong if you hurt all the time, that's NOT normal...doctors had not clue and their only suggestion was pain killers...no thanks...started taking pychnogenol (proanthenols) every day...I'm not even sure when the pain went away because it just gradually faded...a few weeks, a few months, who knows...almost 20 years later I'm still taking it and still pain free...I stopped taking it for a few years and then I started getting joint pain in the winter again and went right back on it...kinda pricey to buy a big bottle, but works out for me to only $1.25 a day so totally worth every penny...heck, I spend more than that on my morning coffee...I get mine from lifeplus...1mg/pound of body weight is the treatment dosage, maintenance is less, but I stay at the treatment level...1
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Recently diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome & waiting for a surgery date to remove the pituitary tumor. Been quoted a wait time of about 3 months, but the symptoms are driving me absolutely insane because the levels of cortisol in my blood mean I'm on a constant adrenaline rush and/or in a constant panic attack state that I can't escape because its chemically induced. Hormones are all over the place & screws up my metabolism.2
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@hollyfoord - sending all the hugs, as that has to SUCK.1
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »@hollyfoord - sending all the hugs, as that has to SUCK.
Me too. P&PTs, dearie.1 -
@tcunbeliever thanks for the heads up about Pychogenol for consideration. Sounds like it has a relative safe track record. I just order the Viva Labs brand since I like their Krill Oil better than any other of several brands that I have tired. The reviews were positive when taken for many different health issues.
webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-1019-pycnogenol.aspx?activeingredientid=1019
pycnogenol.com/home/
This got my attention since this is my #1 objective at this point in my life.
"Pycnogenol® was also demonstrated to significantly lower the inflammatory marker C-reactive protein (CRP) by 72%"
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Yay! Just got notice that they'll be replaying this entire documentary series this weekend!
All 9 episodes will be available through a replay weekend March 11th and 12th where you can view all 9 episodes at once! View them here: http://thethyroidsecret.com/replay/1 -
Thanks for posting this! I'm bummed I didn't see it until I passed the window but I appreciate your summary in the OP, since I have an autoimmune disease (MS).2
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Hello
I was diagnosed with RA about 6 months ago. I kept getting flare ups in my knees (elbows hurt too). They started me on methotrexate which I hate because of side effects. When I discovered keto, I was doing it for weight loss but notice I was feeling better and I started reducing my medicine. Today I feel the best I've felt in months (maybe a couple years). My therapist also stated to me that my body would need to heal before losing significant weight. In any event I feel great. Weight Loss, now, seem to be a welcomed side effect.7 -
macchiatto wrote: »Thanks for posting this! I'm bummed I didn't see it until I passed the window but I appreciate your summary in the OP, since I have an autoimmune disease (MS).
@macchiatto - I took notes on the second session - misdiagnosis and such...and the one on the gut connection if you want me to summarize. Maybe folks who watched the other sessions are willing to share, too? @baconslave @stacicali Bueller? Bueller?
Just let me know if you'd like the Cliff Notes? Or would that be the Knit Knotes?
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rugged1529 wrote: »Hello
I was diagnosed with RA about 6 months ago. I kept getting flare ups in my knees (elbows hurt too). They started me on methotrexate which I hate because of side effects. When I discovered keto, I was doing it for weight loss but notice I was feeling better and I started reducing my medicine. Today I feel the best I've felt in months (maybe a couple years). My therapist also stated to me that my body would need to heal before losing significant weight. In any event I feel great. Weight Loss, now, seem to be a welcomed side effect.
@rugged1529 ... @GaleHawkins - since you avoided medications like this, do you have any suggestions with all your protocol studies? I know RA is a different beast than most, but I was just wondering... @anglyn1 ?1 -
@KnitOrMiss I don't think I have anything else besides what was stated. I don't think I'm expert enough to give deep advice to be honest. @GaleHawkins I think I may be sleeping on the wobenzyme and I'm also going to look into the Pycnogenol as well. I bought the wobenzyme but it's sitting in my medicine/vitamin bucket.1
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Gosh there was so much information.
Having watched both the autoimmunity series (Betrayal) and this series, there is a LOT of overlap of root causes. In the Q&A, Dr. Wentz mentioned a new book she was going to put out soon that covers Root Cause protocols for Hasimotos and Graves. The main causes are Leaky Gut, Hidden Infections, Food Sensitivities, Toxins, and Stress. I'm willing to bet that once that resource comes out, autoimmune patients can use it to address their own root causes, since, as I mentioned, the root causes overlap quite a bit. I've done a lot of research. The basis of many many remissions in various autoimmune disease are discovering root causes and addressing them.
In the mean time...
causes:
Leaky Gut:
food sensitivities which cause intestinal permeability allowing food proteins which sometimes look like body tissues to get into the bloodstream causing an autoimmune reaction due to molecular mimicry. 80% are caused by bad glutens (wheat gluten), dairy, and soy. The rest could be uncovered by a strict food elimination AIP protocol which goes further to uncover egg, seed, nut, coffee, chocolate, nightshade veggies, and other sensitivities missed by protocols like Paleo.
Nutrient deficiencies: caused by LOW stomach acid which keeps nutrients from being broken down into absorbable forms. Also leaky gut, food sensitivities, and infections can keep you from absorbing nutrients.
SIBO: small intestinal bacterial overgrowth
Candida or Parasites
Toxins: BPA, bad chemicals from personal care products accidentally ingested, bad chemicals in foods, fluoride, and etc. Dental amalgams can poison you with mercury. Some foods are contaminated just from living on this trashed earth of ours. So watch food quality as best you can. If you can't, support liver function with something like N-aceytl cysteine (NAC) supplements.
Infections: like Candida, h. pylori, latent Epstein-Barr, or parasites
Toxins:
Just like ingesting bad chemicals from products, you can aspirate by breathing and absorb through the skin these chemicals and pollutants.
Stress:
A stressful life which includes exposure to the above. That's stress to the body as well. Get enough sleep (lack of sleep is a stressor.) Too much caffeine or alcohol are stressors.
So as you can see, a lot of this ties back into the GUT.
What doesn't falls into the internal or external stress category.
So using your library to look at books on autoimmune protocols (OVERDRIVE being one resource) for Dr. Amy Meyers Autoimmune or Thyroid protocol, Dr. Tom O'Bryan has a book. Sarah Ballantyne. Dr. Wentz's current book on Hashimoto's and the root causes. Or listen to autoimmune podcasts by these drs. and similar can get you the information you want.
If you have any specific questions, on say supplement recs, I might be able to remember a few.
Remember that EVERY HUMAN (and this is the exact language used in studies that support this) gets temporary intestinal permeability from gluten ingestion. Every. Human. Normal people heals damage quickly. The problem is whether or not you are genetically predisposed to a sensitivity to gluten as to whether or not your gut can recover quickly enough to prevent leaky gut to the degree that causes an autoimmune reaction. Gluten proteins look a lot like body tissue proteins. Once the sentinels are activated, your immune system will attack anything that looks like them. (Molecular mimicry). Once the gut is breached, other foods get into the blood. Some of those sensitivities can be overcome once leaky gut is fixed and the immune system calms, but gluten intolerance is forever. Your body remembers gluten. Other foods it can sometimes eventually forget if the gut is fixed. This is why you should wait until you've done an exhaustive elimination and reintroduction before having any expensive blood or stool labs done. Your body will become sensitive to many many foods while the floodgates are still open. When you close them for awhile, then you'll get more accurate readings. That's the time to do it: when you think you have eliminated everything, but still have symptoms. That's when you jump down more rare rabbitholes. This avoids wasting time and money (and such waste is more stress, right?
Heal the gut by: staying away from gluten. Every exposure pisses off the immune system for up to 3 months, sometimes more. Take L-glutamine (1tsp three times daily), collagen (bone broth or from hydrolyzed collagen), digestive enzymes, good probiotics (a 10-20 or 15-20 broad spectrum one is good, fermented foods (non-dairy yogurt, kimchi, sauerkraut, kefir), and perhaps Betaine HCl with pepsin. The enzymes and the Betaine help you digest your food into an easier digested form to aid in healing of the gut lining which also helps you absorb more nutrients. If you suspect candida or SIBO or parasites, being proactive with oregano oil supplements or saccromyces boulardii (yeast based probiotic) can help, but these are something that may require testing. And if you determine SIBO may actually be the cause, you'll need to ditch any lactobacillus probiotics, and focus on soil-based probiotics and s. boulardii. Doctors have antibiotics they can try, but these are things you can do on your own.
If you apply these and still get stuck, say improve but not 100%, or just plain not enough for you, you'll need a naturopathic doctor, integrative doc, or functional medicine practioner to help. For example if you do an elimination protocol and heal your gut permeability (you think) but there are still some nagging symptoms, then you might need help from that kind of practitioner.
This is just my take-aways from it all. I'm certain I've forgotten something.
Pardon any typos, I'm a busy bacon today.7 -
@baconslave Where can I see the series? (real question: do I have to buy it?)1
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rugged1529 wrote: »@baconslave Where can I see the series? (real question: do I have to buy it?)
Unfortunately, the window has expired to just view. You have to buy the series now (the link is in Knit's OP.)
However, a cheaper option would be to find the books I mentioned via library, or if you have to buy, used copies from Amazon or other bookseller.
Often listening to the author's podcasts (they usually go on multiple when a book is coming out) and sometimes they will give a few actionable tidbits in those. The podcasts also help you know whether or not you would benefit from investing in the book.
You might check out Phoenix Helix and Autoimmune Wellness for multiple resources. I know at least one of those bloggers/authors have had RA and other immune diseases.
Sometimes author's will have autoimmune summits. Free to listen/watch for awhile. I'll post if there is another. But what I've said above, I have also heard there.3 -
Wow, I didn't have time to read all that great info, but Dr. Axe (Dr. Woo as he is known to some folks) has a Leaky Gut Seminar that is mainly an advertisement for his program that costs $297, but he dropped some food info about supplements and types of leaky gut and such... It's free, but again, it's going on right now...
https://my.draxe.com/hlg-program1 -
Thanks for the added info! And sure, @KnitOrMiss, more Knit Notes would be great.
How do you figure out what digestive enzymes to take?0 -
I started with just regular Betaine HCL, but I didn't do super great with it. The second suggestion was one that included Ox Bile specifically since I don't have a gallbladder. That and ACV with the mother helped at meals. I eventually switched the ACV to pill form, at my PCP's suggestion, using the liquid for emergency acid break throughs.
I use Now Brand Super Enzymes and Nature's Life ACV pills. I got both on Amazon, but grocers that carry supplements may also have them. I can tell when I don't take them.
@anglyn1 shared this link in another discussion, and the link under #5 was the direction I took:
nobunplease.com/diarrhea-low-carb-keto-diet/
scdlifestyle.com/2012/03/how-to-supplement-with-betaine-hcl-for-low-stomach-acid/
I couldn't find a good therapeutic dose with just the Betaine HCL, but I do add it if I have a huge meal or something, even now, until I finish up the bottle. Oh, and the capsules versus tablet - absolutely capsules all day long. I didn't absorb well from the tablets.
I do still have some concerns as to not tolerating the Betaine HCL alone, but that isn't huge in my face currently.
@macchiatto1 -
rugged1529 wrote: »@KnitOrMiss I don't think I have anything else besides what was stated. I don't think I'm expert enough to give deep advice to be honest. @GaleHawkins I think I may be sleeping on the wobenzyme and I'm also going to look into the Pycnogenol as well. I bought the wobenzyme but it's sitting in my medicine/vitamin bucket.
Wobenzym biological action is prevented by the plastic container.
Start slow but as noted I did 20 tablets 4x daily for 30 days with no side effects except billfold pain. Due to the Poly MVA and Artemisinin testing currently I am only taking Wobenzym once daily currently because I like to be off food 2 hours before and one hour after taking Wobenzym so when taking Poly MVA 4x daily with the same food spacing I run out of hours in the day.
livestrong.com/article/161756-benefits-of-wobenzym/
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »rugged1529 wrote: »Hello
I was diagnosed with RA about 6 months ago. I kept getting flare ups in my knees (elbows hurt too). They started me on methotrexate which I hate because of side effects. When I discovered keto, I was doing it for weight loss but notice I was feeling better and I started reducing my medicine. Today I feel the best I've felt in months (maybe a couple years). My therapist also stated to me that my body would need to heal before losing significant weight. In any event I feel great. Weight Loss, now, seem to be a welcomed side effect.
@rugged1529 ... @GaleHawkins - since you avoided medications like this, do you have any suggestions with all your protocol studies? I know RA is a different beast than most, but I was just wondering... @anglyn1 ?
@KnitOrMiss all of the protocols that I have put myself on over the last 2.5 years were geared to revert stage 3 and 4 tumors back to all normal cells. It turns out they are good for RA and most any immune hypo/hyper activity. It was initially the fear of cancer from Enbrel injections that started me on this research but because I went off of sugar and all forms of grains 30 days before the appointment date to start Enbrel injections my pain was being addressed so I dodged that bullet. Since I was at the same time watching a family member die a hard death from cancer I stayed with my intent to take the fear of cancer out of my family but fully understanding why it develops and how to prevent/reverse it at any stage. These protocols come from outside of the USA and mainly from Europe and Asia regions.
It turns out like type 2 diabetes, heart disease, stroke, Alzheimer, etc along with cancer are not actually diseases but in most cases are just the side effects of long term body inflammation caused by many different things. That is why my only WOE goal now is to eat in a way that lowers my C-Reactive Protein test levels in a systematic way.
My Pycnogenol came today also so now I have to restudy why I order it. 2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »rugged1529 wrote: »Hello
I was diagnosed with RA about 6 months ago. I kept getting flare ups in my knees (elbows hurt too). They started me on methotrexate which I hate because of side effects. When I discovered keto, I was doing it for weight loss but notice I was feeling better and I started reducing my medicine. Today I feel the best I've felt in months (maybe a couple years). My therapist also stated to me that my body would need to heal before losing significant weight. In any event I feel great. Weight Loss, now, seem to be a welcomed side effect.
@rugged1529 ... @GaleHawkins - since you avoided medications like this, do you have any suggestions with all your protocol studies? I know RA is a different beast than most, but I was just wondering... @anglyn1 ?
@KnitOrMiss all of the protocols that I have put myself on over the last 2.5 years were geared to revert stage 3 and 4 tumors back to all normal cells. It turns out they are good for RA and most any immune hypo/hyper activity. It was initially the fear of cancer from Enbrel injections that started me on this research but because I went off of sugar and all forms of grains 30 days before the appointment date to start Enbrel injections my pain was being addressed so I dodged that bullet. Since I was at the same time watching a family member die a hard death from cancer I stayed with my intent to take the fear of cancer out of my family but fully understanding why it develops and how to prevent/reverse it at any stage. These protocols come from outside of the USA and mainly from Europe and Asia regions.
It turns out like type 2 diabetes, heart disease, stroke, Alzheimer, etc along with cancer are not actually diseases but in most cases are just the side effects of long term body inflammation caused by many different things. That is why my only WOE goal now is to eat in a way that lowers my C-Reactive Protein test levels in a systematic way.
My Pycnogenol came today also so now I have to restudy why I order it.
Please share what you learn in your studies, save us some time!
Are all your protocols stated above that you suggest? also how long did it take for the wobenzyme to kick in? 0 -
For anyone interested, I just checked the line-up (cursory glance, mind you) of the Diabetes Summit, and Dr. Tom O'Bryan will be speaking about autoimmunity as it may relate to diabetes, but I'm betting a lot of the discussion will be a good primer on some of this.2
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Very interesting discussion. A possible auto immune disease is what brought me to the woe to see if eliminating grains would help a strange condition I have in my feet. My Mom and sister are both celiacs, so I thought maybe I could be too without the GI symptoms. I had extensive testing by a Rheumatologist with no auto immune disease detected, but I continue with symptoms that lead my mind to auto immune diseases. The immune system is so complicated!1
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@missippibelle - The one thing that bothered me most about that summit was the positive assertion that startlingly high percentage (25% and up, if I remember) of Hashimoto's patients alone did not test positive on antibodies. I'm sure that statistic is similar to many auto-immune conditions. My understanding is that you have to get close to the point of permanent damage/multiple conditions before these particular flags start waving like a red flag before a bullfight.
In other words, don't assume that because you don't have antibodies that you aren't auto-immune. I'd check inflammation and other markers, too, and if in doubt, find a doc willing to address symptoms, even when tests aren't black and white.
May I ask what "foot" condition you're working to eliminate? I've had some odd nerve/discomfort/random weirdness in my hands and feet in recent months, so I'd love to see if we have any factors in common. I swear, I love that my Endocrinologist is a fan of crowd-sourcing information for research/investigation factors!1 -
@baconslave - I think all of us are in at least some risk category for diabetes, or else, we'd likely not have sought out low carbing in general. Thanks for the reminder of how many issues are related!2
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I am positive on antibodies for thyroid.., but also high ANA. I started to have similar sounding issues and ended up low on b-12. Pernicious anemia... my b-12 was low (200) but my CBC was ok. The doctor still can't figure that one out.KnitOrMiss wrote: »I've had some odd nerve/discomfort/random weirdness in my hands and feet in recent months, so I'd love to see if we have any factors in common.
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missippibelle wrote: »Very interesting discussion. A possible auto immune disease is what brought me to the woe to see if eliminating grains would help a strange condition I have in my feet. My Mom and sister are both celiacs, so I thought maybe I could be too without the GI symptoms. I had extensive testing by a Rheumatologist with no auto immune disease detected, but I continue with symptoms that lead my mind to auto immune diseases. The immune system is so complicated!
I am at the point of view no one person living today understands over 1% of the human immune system. Eating to get my C-Reactive Protein to approach ZERO is all I know to try any longer after my reading of research for the past 2.5 years and earning an OD degree 31 years ago.
Every time I think others or myself are starting to figure out somethings I find "in your face" research pointing in a different direction. What is true in one person may be false in the next. Doctors that are only trusting tests that are most likely flawed at some level can give deadly advice it seems.
Had I started Enbrel injections per doctor orders Nov 2014 instead of cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains (keeping carbs at <50 grams daily) Oct 2014 and getting good pain management I hate to think what my quality of life might be today.1
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