Of fasting, disordered eating, and confusion

sisterlilbunny

I'll try to stay away from triggers but just in case, there might be some in here.

Long history short, I have a history with all three of the big disorders (like age 11 start). LC/Keto has finally given me a freedom I haven't felt for a really REALLY long time. Yes it took (hell I still work on it) the brain a bit to switch over to fat being okay but still, I don't feel desperate if that makes sense? I normally average 1500 cal a day and have about 50lbs to go.

I am curious about the fasting to find your hunger idea. We were supposed to being having a big social dinner tonight so I over fed a bit yesterday (around 2000 total so not a ton). That isn't happening but I figured meh, I'll try this fasting thing for the day. Well my brain is going ape chit over here now. The whole what if's you know? What if this drops me back into the binge mode, what if this messes me up again, what if I blew it yesterday by over feeding. Logic doesn't work here as you can tell.

Obviously fasting while starving and fasting to offset a binge are totally different paths. I want to listen and learn from my body but I am just scared I'm conning myself you know? Any logic/reading/listening info you guys can provide would be awesome at this point.

kirkor

How long have you been LC/Keto? Fasting shouldn't be stressful, so I'd say you probably could stand to ease in to it a bit before going for a 24h session.
What was the overeating the day before a planned dinner based on? Were you thinking you'd skip breakfast and lunch to create more of a calorie budget for the social event?
I'd probably try the "daily shortened eating" window version of IF to start ... skip breakfast and push lunch a little later. Still hit your planned calories and macros for the day, just in a shorter period of time.

Also you don't necessarily even have to do any form of fasting. There are many potential benefits, and many people find IF dovetails nicely with LCHF, but it's not required.

RalfLott

I just bumped a carb addiction thread featuring Jackie Eberstein - a must watch if this is one of your demons!

nvmomketo

I really wouldn't push fasting if it is stressful for you. It isn't needed to find your hunger. It sounds like you are already doing well at a low-ish caloric deficit. If you are hungry, you should eat. If it is just very stressful, you can eat. If you are worried about too many calories, just have an egg or two, or veggies with some dip or dressing.

IF sounds like a better place to start if you want to use fating. Stop eating after dinner or skip breakfast when not hungry with the option of an early lunch.

I did not fall into fasting at all until I had been LCHF for at least 6 months. I dropped most breakfasts after a year LCHF.

I lost all of my weight without fasting. It doesn't work well for everyone, and even those who do it have not always used it or will continue to use it forever. KWIM?

kpk54

Like most things, you will find conflicting information regarding the value or demise of fasting or intermittent fasting regarding eating disorders.

In the case you mention above try to find the logic that you indicate is currently escaping you. You intentionally ate about 2000 calories yesterday which was about 500 over your daily goal. You did this in anticipation of an event this evening where you thought you might not have enough things available??? That is a question because I'm not understanding completely why you over ate yesterday for something today but understand that may be a part of disordered eating. No judgement there. Just confusion on my part.

Fasting to offset a binge or over eating may be unhealthy. I would say it is. It is not fasting. It is restricting, IMO. I think you indicated much the same in your original post. Kudos.

Here's the logic: yesterday you intentionally over ate by about 500 calories. To deny yourself those 500 calories today in addition to your current deficit may cause you to be over hungry and result a binge. Been there. Honest. Think of your "over 500" this way. If your normal deficit intake is 1500 for 1 pound per week, that means the 2000 you ate yesterday is your maintenance calories. If your deficit is 250 vs 500, you only over are by 250 calories. 250 calories divided by 3500 calories for a pound is only .07 of a pound. Unlikely to show up on the scale until you do it every day for many days in a row.

Yesterday is over. Take care of today. Forget about all those numbers above except to see that fasting to offset them may not be advisable. Unhealthy focus on calories can send you into an ever so deep rabbit hole of darkness especially when those calories are significantly higher than 500 calories. You intentionally overate yesterday. Have a reasonable meal today. Do not punish yourself by under eating today. If you want to try fasting/intermittent fasting at some point in time, do so when/after you have been on target with your eating. Make it a planned event. As you may know, fasting after over indulgence is restricting. That is my opinion (again). Forget about the 500 calories. Carry on.

I had a very huge problem with bingeing and restricting in 2015 after I lost all my excess weight and at the ripe old age of 61. Never before in all those years. Go figure. I'm over it now (hopefully). I no longer eat extraordinarily high amount of calories in a very short period of time feeling like I am unable to stop....then hide the containers in the bottom of the trash can and drive to the store to replace the item with the very unreasonable thought that my husband will want "X" immediately when he walks in the door from work and I will be totally humiliated that I had eaten the entire package of something. Have you been there? If so, know you did not binge yesterday. You had a few planned extra calories.

sisterlilbunny

Thank you guys for putting up with my crazy, it's really appreciated!

The over feeding idea was to not have to worry about eating during the day so I could enjoy a nice full dinner of steak and shrimp. With butter. Mmm...butter.

But I think y'all are right (duh). Just back off on this stuff now and just plan better for those days where I know I'm going out for a social dinner or what not. And when I say plan I mean look for things that fit my macros not necessarily calories since let's face it, steak and shrimp.

Again, thank you for talking me down over here. I did get a lot of the weird flippy anxiety out by grocery shopping for good foods (as in yummy not as in "good"). I am gonna go read the articles in the other thread now. *HUGS*

KnitOrMiss

For me, fasting has to occur naturally. I can't use it as a punishment, a management tool, or anything like that.

They way I figure it, forcing myself to NOT EAT when I'm hungry is as disordered FOR ME as eating when I'm not hungry, etc. It is a tool some can use.

But remember, when you're eating at a deficit already, going back up to maintenance calories for a single day will not undo any progress. It can't possibly. One meal was not what got you to where you are today.

There is a lot of research popping up now, too, for those of us who suffer these disorders/cravings/addictions/etc. It shows that our gut is compromised (the "trigger" could be childhood stress, anxiety, antibiotics, illness, poor diet, underlying health conditions, or any number of a million things) for WHATEVER REASON. Once the gut is compromised, our body can no longer make or convert the neurotransmitters we need to moderate mood, stress, cravings, addictions, etc. Let me repeat that.

ONCE THE GUT IS COMPROMISED, OUR BODY CAN NO LONGER MAKE OR CONVERT THE NEUROTRANSMITTERS WE NEED TO MODERATE MOOD, STRESS, CRAVINGS, ADDICTIONS, ETC.

Sure, some people's bodies can adapt to that, but for some of us, the genetic code is missing, or our life situation prevents us from being ably to remedy the gaps. And when this goes on for a time, it compounds things. We may be able to get by "feeling okay" part of the time when we stuff our faces full of all the "feel good carbs" because the sheer volume can somewhat get by with the compromise conversion.

But the theory is that using certain amino acid therapies, we can actually repair and overcome these tendencies.

http://carbsyndrome.com/is-your-brain-two-quarts-low/ << This is the article that actually got me started...

But this one absolutely blew my mind! A quote that was on FB, "GABA for stress-eating, DPA for comfort-I deserve-it cravings, tryptophan for eating for happiness, tyrosine for energy and focus and glutamine for intense cravings due to low blood sugar." There's no direct article, but this covers most of everything!
https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/amino-acids-pyroluria-supplements/

I hope something in this helps.

KnitOrMiss

Oh, and another thing I like to remind myself of, "Nutrition trumps calories and carbs EVERY SINGLE TIME."

@sisterlilbunny

Not getting enough nutrients in your dietary intake creates levels of hunger that don't really ever get sated until we consume those nutrients. So, rather than punish yourself for some observed "crime," realize that it was a less than stellar choice, banish ALL guilt, and simply move on to the next bite.

Punishing yourself only fuels that disordered eating/thinking cycle. Restricting today sets you up for nearly automatic failure later. Period. Why risk it?

Oh, and the thing I have to especially remind myself when I'm getting all irrational is that "this type of restriction/exclusion/punishment has NEVER EVER EVER worked for you before. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result. Therefore, it is an insane choice to think that suddenly this so-called tool would magically work for you when it never has, despite repeated use in multiple contextual situations, etc. Accept that until something changes in your physical and chemical make up, this tool is not one that works for you. It's hard, and it means your'e not some misguided concept of normal, but it is you...so accept this, and just move on, because, KNIT, the 'this time' arguments are just a distraction and rationalization, and you're better than that."

anglyn1

I think with your history I might not rush into fasting. I've been LCHF for almost 2 years and so far I've never had a full fast day. Most mornings I skip food and just have coffee with cream for breakfast, not a true fast I know, but I do that because I'm not hungry first thing in the morning. I usually eat lunch at 2 or 3. Sometimes I'm not hungry and I just skip it. I only do that when it feels natural. If I'm hungry I eat. I think I've gotten to know my hunger cues fine without adding in the fasting. LCHF is more satiating for me so I stay full longer. Also due to hormones, my activity levels, etc. I have super hungry days and barely hungry days. I go with the flow.

KnitOrMiss

Any updates @sisterlilbunny ?

sisterlilbunny

LOL well eating wise I'm doing well. Getting into a "routine" helps and makes it easier to deal with the larger meals with family that comes up.

However met with the cardiologist due to my insane cholesterol so the stress is in another place right now. Luckily, he's all for the lifestyle changes I've made and is behind the keto WOE as long as I aim for MUFA/PUFA and back off on the saturated. He's putting me on a statin and we're both hoping I fail on it so I can qualify for the PCSK9 inhibitors which don't mess with blood sugars and my other meds so much. Needless to say my epic salad this noon was um, well deserved.

RalfLott

sisterlilbunny wrote: »

LOL well eating wise I'm doing well. Getting into a "routine" helps and makes it easier to deal with the larger meals with family that comes up.

However met with the cardiologist due to my insane cholesterol so the stress is in another place right now. Luckily, he's all for the lifestyle changes I've made and is behind the keto WOE as long as I aim for MUFA/PUFA and back off on the saturated. He's putting me on a statin and we're both hoping I fail on it so I can qualify for the PCSK9 inhibitors which don't mess with blood sugars and my other meds so much. Needless to say my epic salad this noon was um, well deserved.

Oh, boy. Everyone's different, of course, but the research favoring healthy saturated fats over PUFAs has been pretty strong lately.....

sisterlilbunny

LOL @RalfLott this is one of those things where I just have to do what feels right for my body huh? Can't win for losing LOL.

RalfLott

sisterlilbunny wrote: »

LOL @RalfLott this is one of those things where I just have to do what feels right for my body huh? Can't win for losing LOL.

I'm imagining St. Peter saying something like, "By the way, the longevity foods for your genetic profile would have been ice cream, escargots, and Manishevitz ."

blambo61

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

For me, fasting has to occur naturally. I can't use it as a punishment, a management tool, or anything like that.

They way I figure it, forcing myself to NOT EAT when I'm hungry is as disordered FOR ME as eating when I'm not hungry, etc. It is a tool some can use.

But remember, when you're eating at a deficit already, going back up to maintenance calories for a single day will not undo any progress. It can't possibly. One meal was not what got you to where you are today.

There is a lot of research popping up now, too, for those of us who suffer these disorders/cravings/addictions/etc. It shows that our gut is compromised (the "trigger" could be childhood stress, anxiety, antibiotics, illness, poor diet, underlying health conditions, or any number of a million things) for WHATEVER REASON. Once the gut is compromised, our body can no longer make or convert the neurotransmitters we need to moderate mood, stress, cravings, addictions, etc. Let me repeat that.

ONCE THE GUT IS COMPROMISED, OUR BODY CAN NO LONGER MAKE OR CONVERT THE NEUROTRANSMITTERS WE NEED TO MODERATE MOOD, STRESS, CRAVINGS, ADDICTIONS, ETC.

Sure, some people's bodies can adapt to that, but for some of us, the genetic code is missing, or our life situation prevents us from being ably to remedy the gaps. And when this goes on for a time, it compounds things. We may be able to get by "feeling okay" part of the time when we stuff our faces full of all the "feel good carbs" because the sheer volume can somewhat get by with the compromise conversion.

But the theory is that using certain amino acid therapies, we can actually repair and overcome these tendencies.

http://carbsyndrome.com/is-your-brain-two-quarts-low/ << This is the article that actually got me started...

But this one absolutely blew my mind! A quote that was on FB, "GABA for stress-eating, DPA for comfort-I deserve-it cravings, tryptophan for eating for happiness, tyrosine for energy and focus and glutamine for intense cravings due to low blood sugar." There's no direct article, but this covers most of everything!
https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/amino-acids-pyroluria-supplements/

I hope something in this helps.

Fasting works for me cause I'm usually hungry. LC does help with the hunger though but I find fasting easier than going extremely low carb all the time. Fasting is zero carbs actually so I'm zero carb for a good part of the day and medium for the end.