LCHF / Keto & Mental Health?

Violet_Flux

I can vaguely remember some topics or threads that suggested this way of eating is or can be beneficial for folks dealing with problems such as depression, etc.

I'm wondering if there's any other mental health overlap with low carb or keto diets, pro or con?

Asking because I had a previously undiagnosed problem blow up late last year, and we're still sort of picking up the pieces from that. (It's why I've been mostly absent from the group for a few months.)

Anyways this all happened after a long time (over a year?) of eating this way, and one friend keeps suggesting that the psych problem is because of this diet.

I know for a fact low carb can't have caused the problem, this condition can only develop in early childhood. But I don't know if LCHF / Keto can exacerbate things.

I'm sure I've read that ketones interact with the brain... I don't know if I'm in ketosis and I don't remember if I have been in the past. (I found ketostix in the bathroom so I assume we tested at one point.) I mostly try and keep carbs below 30g / day so maybe?

Personally, I think this WOE is beneficial for all aspects of health, including mental. I think it's probably helping, if anything. But I don't have any basis for that, just my own opinion.

Hoping someone can point to an article or discussion about LCHF & mental health that I can use to shut this friend up.

Thanks!

tcunbeliever

Your friend isn't going to listen. You have already said that you KNOW this isn't the cause of the problem because the condition can ONLY develop in early childhood. Assuming you have already explained this to your friend, more facts are not going to change anything, they aren't going to listen because they already aren't listening to facts.

Some people are open to being educated, some people are not. It doesn't matter what they think, you are the only one who gets a vote in how you choose to care for your health.

mmultanen

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this.

I do recall threads being posted a while ago that discussed mental health impacts of this way of eating. I believe mostly, the topics were people sharing their persona experiences. Anecdotal experiences about better clarity, feeling more calm, reduced anxiousness and better managed depression.

A quick search of this group netted me nothing, but that's not new. The search function and I are not friendly.

GaleHawkins

I know it has been helpful to me in all aspects so I run with my n=1 results and tune out those who want to argue about my personal results but I am an old man short on patiences with this type but will work until the cows come home with those who are interested in 'discussing' any health/eating factors. Best of luck with this person.

chinatowninchina

Check out Tuit Nutrition she has a lot of stuff on how it helps things like dementia and alzheimers. I know it's different but it is all to do with the brain and how it works. She's even written a book which I've actually ordered. Good luck and ignore your friend!

Violet_Flux

Thanks everyone for the responses! Yeah the search function here has been hit-or-miss for us lol. We'll look into the tuit nutrition stuff, but mostly just try and remember to tell our friend thanks for the concern but it's not a problem. Cheers!

canadjineh

@Steph_Maks PubMed link: https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357645/
March 20/2017 published "The Current Status of the Ketogenic Diet in Psychiatry"

Background
The ketogenic diet (KD) has been used in treatment-resistant epilepsy since the 1920s. It has been researched in a variety of neurological conditions in both animal models and human trials. The aim of this review is to clarify the potential role of KD in psychiatry.

Methods
Narrative review of electronic databases PubMED, PsychINFO, and Scopus.

Results
The search yielded 15 studies that related the use of KD in mental disorders including anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, autism spectrum disorder (ASD), and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). These studies comprised nine animal models, four case studies, and two open-label studies in humans. In anxiety, exogenous ketone supplementation reduced anxiety-related behaviors in a rat model. In depression, KD significantly reduced depression-like behaviors in rat and mice models in two controlled studies. In bipolar disorder, one case study reported a reduction in symptomatology, while a second case study reported no improvement. In schizophrenia, an open-label study in female patients (n = 10) reported reduced symptoms after 2 weeks of KD, a single case study reported no improvement. In a brief report, 3 weeks of KD in a mouse model normalized pathological behaviors. In ASD, an open-label study in children (n = 30) reported no significant improvement; one case study reported a pronounced and sustained response to KD. In ASD, in four controlled animal studies, KD significantly reduced ASD-related behaviors in mice and rats. In ADHD, in one controlled trial of KD in dogs with comorbid epilepsy, both conditions significantly improved.

Plus lots more continued info on this meta-data site. 102 reference links in this article. Good Luck!

Violet_Flux

Thanks a lot for that @canadjineh I really appreciate it!

They don't specifically mention my problem, but they cover a lot of the comorbidities. I think it makes a good argument that a keto diet is probably good for the brain, and at the very least, it can't hurt!

nvmomketo

Steph_Maks wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that @canadjineh I really appreciate it!

They don't specifically mention my problem, but they cover a lot of the comorbidities. I think it makes a good argument that a keto diet is probably good for the brain, and at the very least, it can't hurt!

That sounds about right. Who knows, it could have helped minimized your issues somewhat.

There are a small but vocal number of people on the main forums who have said that low carb had a negative effect on their health issues, a few of which were mood related. It is possible that it affected you negatively, but I think it would have been obvious around when you started lchf and not a year later.

I hope things are getting better for you. (Hugs)

TheDevastator

The GAPS diet is about mental health and low carb.

Violet_Flux

TheDevastator wrote: »

The GAPS diet is about mental health and low carb.

Thanks for that, never heard of GAPS before. We did a quick look through of their wesite and all, and it looks to be mostly focused on learning disabilities and behavioral issues? The mental health stuff seems to be tacked on, but not the main focus? Unless we missed something obvious.

Figure it's best to stop talking around it, our problem is 'dissociative identity disorder', which is sort of on the spectrum of PTSD but it stems from extreme trauma in early childhood. Nothing to do with behavior or learning or stuff like that.

For us it was pretty well concealed (equal parts denial and amnesia lol) till we had a sort of breakdown a few months ago, though we've found evidence of symptoms in our blog and journals going back as far as we've been able to research.

Anyways, for the actual topic, I think there's enough 'ammunition' to tell this friend LCHF has nothing to do with exacerbating the situation.

Cheers!

Sunny_Bunny_

I’m not sure what info will specifically address the mental health aspect but Dr Georgia Ede is practically carnivore and she’s a psychologist psychiatrist? Not sure which one.
She’s a big advocate of cutting carbs and even speaks against even eating plants at all.
There must be something on her site to help you.
This link is all about vegetables and why they may not be healthy but it’ll get you to the site to research more.
She’s very thorough and provides resource links to back up what she says.
http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/vegetables/

357girl

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Dr. Perlmutter, author of Grain Brain, might have information on his website.

KnitOrMiss

I know that going low carb can trigger mania in bipolar patients who are subject to manic episodes. I've done some research to that effect.

Mainly, it seems that for folks with leaky gut, compromised digestion, or overall gut health issues, neurotransmitters are converted to the usable, active forms mainly in the gut. Especially with serotonin related issues, because carbs have a certain release of serotonin, and can be sometimes the only significant input of serotonin for those with conversion issues. Dopamine reactions also play into this, which is why some foods can create a chemical reaction in our brains, an inescapable compulsion.

@Steph_Maks

Since I don't know any of the history here, or whether your weight gain was, as for many with PTSD and similar situations from their past, a protective action, but if the weight gain you previously accomplished helped protect you from whatever trauma caused the DID in the first place, it is very obvious to me why that trauma and DID would resurface as you heal your body and lose that protective layer of self.

Additionally, basic googling says that DID is not medication specific, that it's more about the therapy process to heal, but that medications can help treat the mental health symptoms associated with the condition, it leads me to wonder if there is a stress/cortisol/adrenal reaction, even a stress-memory, associated with the past/triggers (limbic system, is it?) can trigger a related reaction, refreshing the trauma from the stress chemicals alone...

Despite all that, if there is a neurotransmitter/amino acid related component to your trauma or wellness, this might play into the current resurgence of the issue...

Depending on how you're approaching treating and handling the issue, it might be work bumping yourself up to the upper range of your ketosis threshold (usually 50-60 grams of carbs daily once metabolic healing and ketogenic adaption kick in)...to see if the temporary bump in serotonin input and such can allow for better understanding of and addressing of the trigger factors...

TL;DR - if you already have underlying health issues related to serotonin/dopamine/cortisol, ketosis can trigger or worsen these (it can improve them in some, too). Might be worth bumping your carbs up a little bit to test theory or temporarily improve mental health to isolate trigger, etc.

(HUGS)

P.S. Don't forget that just because we improve our physical health, we don't get automatic bonuses to mental health adaptations... Our mental health likely contributed to the weight gain and such over time IN THE FIRST PLACE, and therefore will likely still be there waiting to be addressed, even after we kick the weight, etc. (HUGS)

Violet_Flux

Thanks @KnitOrMiss for all that detailed information!

I don't know about a seratonin/dopamine/cortisol connection. I have learned that at least one of our parts feels the extra weight made us safer, and feels threatened by how we're looking now, so wants us to regain... We're fighting a little 'diet sabotage' now and then on that front.

I'm also a bit embarassed at the 'oversharing' we've done. I don't know which of us mentioned it was DID specifically.

Mainly we just wanted something to show this friend to get them off our back re. the diet, which we got thanks to the other posters.

LCHF absolutely did not cause this. It only played a part tangentally... Stephanie hated excercise and didn't care about her health, so I started handling that aspect of life for her, and eventually she couldn't ignore me and the others any longer. So, breakdown.

Anyways, we are in therapy, working at healing and learning to cope and all that stuff.

Thanks again for the info!

baconslave

Don't be embarrassed too much. We are here to support you. Enormous web hugs to you.

retirehappy

Steph_Maks, I wanted to let you know here that you have been a great inspiration to many with all your progress reports. You have been amazing in your progress. More web hugs sent your way.

nvmomketo

So true. (Hug)

Violet_Flux

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

if the weight gain you previously accomplished helped protect you from whatever trauma caused the DID in the first place, it is very obvious to me why that trauma and DID would resurface as you heal your body and lose that protective layer of self.

@KnitOrMiss we've been going over this back and forth a bit. We think there's a sort of chicken-and-egg conundrum, of trying to separate cause and effect. Did our DID symptoms grow worse beause of the weight loss, or was the weight loss itself a byproduct of worsening DID symptoms.

Basically, Stephanie was so divorced from her body and had so little regard for it, she had no interest or ability towards healing it. That was my job and I started working on it from 'behind the scenes', pushing / influencing her, or just doing it for her. (Convenient for her actually - if you don't wanna workout, someone else will do it for you lol!) Unfortunately that probably played a part in her breakdown - she was constantly questioning herself, unable to understand why she was suddenly so focused on health & fitness, why she'd be excercising every day despite usually hating it.

We actually have a pretty good idea what actually triggered me to become active in 2015, as opposed to say a decade ago or whenever. Now that I think it through I actually do think the weight loss has been a side-effect of the DID rather than the other way around. Huh.

baconslave wrote: »

Don't be embarrassed too much. We are here to support you. Enormous web hugs to you.

retirehappy wrote: »

Steph_Maks, I wanted to let you know here that you have been a great inspiration to many with all your progress reports. You have been amazing in your progress. More web hugs sent your way.

nvmomketo wrote: »

So true. (Hug)

Thank you @baconslave and @retirehappy and @nvmomketo, we really appreciate that.

Once we get ourselves back on track and there's progress again, I will try and keep up with reports like Stephanie used to. Which brings up one other awkward aspect to this... I refer to Stephanie in 3rd person and past tense. It's because she's been gone since her breakdown in November. Dormant somewhere deep inside. At this point it's unlikely she'll ever return.

We've had to take over her life completely, and that's been really difficult for everyone involved. (I'm aware how crazy that sounds lol.) There's two of us who are here most of the time, and we both hate pretending to be Stephanie. We're planning to change the legal name so we don't have to pretend to be her any more. At some point we'll probably change the username on here too.

Thanks again for all the support & understanding.

chinatowninchina

Hi, I just want to say that I admire your honesty. I think that you might think about changing the user name sooner rather than later, then you don't have to 'pretend' to be her here or post as her. That gives you a natural break from Stephanie here and then you can start afresh as yourselves. I hope this makes sense.

Violet_Flux

Just a little follow-up to this...

Still having trouble really getting 100% back into the diet / WOE like we should. Going to make another push to try and get over the self-sabotage etc. Excercise has been ok though, as in we still do it every day, still hitting our daily activity goals.

The good news is, finally got the name change stuff out of the way. Both here on MFP with a new username, but the big thing is we did a legal name change so we're moving forward as the new (and hopefully improved) version of ourself.

Thanks again to everyone for being so supportive here!

-Violet

canadjineh

Welcome back, WTG, Violet! Regular exercise is definitely helpful and you'll get back to your diet, one step at a time! Hugs!

baconslave

Violet_Flux wrote: »

Just a little follow-up to this...

Still having trouble really getting 100% back into the diet / WOE like we should. Going to make another push to try and get over the self-sabotage etc. Excercise has been ok though, as in we still do it every day, still hitting our daily activity goals.

The good news is, finally got the name change stuff out of the way. Both here on MFP with a new username, but the big thing is we did a legal name change so we're moving forward as the new (and hopefully improved) version of ourself.

Thanks again to everyone for being so supportive here!

-Violet

kpk54

Nice to see you stopping by. Come hang out!

chinatowninchina

@Violet_Flux welcome! Nice to see you back and moving forward with life, the diet stuff will come when you are ready and the important stuff is what you have achieved recently

Violet_Flux

Hey folks! - So it's been like 6 or 7 months I guess since we were last active in the forums here. Figured today was a good day for a follow-up. Cos it was one year ago today that our big breakdown happened and we like doing these 'aniversary posts' like Steph did lol.

It has not been a great year unfortunately. We've gained like 30 pounds which sucks. Dunno the exact amount but maybe we'll get on a scale this week or maybe end of November.

We're still doing our daily cardio. Had to take a 2 or 3 week break cos we had to have surgery in September but we're back at it, averaging like 70 minutes a day right now and hoping to get it up to 90 minutes/day by the end of the year.

The food thing has been our biggest setback health-wise. Our endo doc says it's normal, like our body lost a ton of weight and now it wants to gain it back again. We think its all psychological. Maybe its a bit of both?

Like, I can be committed to the diet, but if one or two others aren't, then it just takes a day or two a week of them snacking and cheating to mess up our week. So the other day we had a sort of team meeting and I laid down the law. We're all on low-carb, we're all in it together, and we all gotta work on this cos we all get sick or healthy at the same time.

It's only like 2 or 3 days since then but so far we're being good and nobody's complained about things. We did this for like 2 years before the breakdown and we know it works. We've had a year of messing around. Now it's time to get serious again.

So that's where we are for physical health.

Mental health is another work-in-progress lol. We just switched therapists and started with someone who's got actual knowledge and experience in this stuff. Early days with her but we're hopeful that'll help a lot more than the first one.

Maybe the hardest thing to accept has been the realization that life is never gonna be how it was before. Stuff that we've forgotten or lost - like memories, as well as skills, knowledge and stuff like that - we may never ever get back. Best we can hope for is to just learn to live with the new reality and accept the new limitations and stuff like that.

We're super lucky about being self-employed and that Steph set up work and stuff the way she did, cos the tough reality is if we were in some 9-5 job, we'd be out on the street by now. Either been fired or had to quit for medical leave or whatever. Cos we're just not as capable of all that stuff as we used to be. Even the self-employed work is a challenge but at least it's flexible enough we can sorta do the work when we're able, and take breaks when we need to.

And working from home, dealing with people by email and phone means its easier for us to pretend to be a stable competant mature grown-up like they expect, lol.

So, I can't promise we're gonna suddenly be as active again in the forum as Steph was, but we're being serious about the diet again and we've been reading the forum for a few days now, working up the courage to join in again.

Hope everyone's having a good weekend. Keep calm & keto on!

kpk54

@voilet_flux This is a really good thread about need for a diet break. Most of the really great links are in the beginning of the 200 some pages.

https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks#latest

If you've not looked into leptin and ghrelin, the hunger hormones, you might want to search that info about how the loss of fat has an affect on the hormones and what can be done about it

Good to see you posting and hope your new therapist is of benefit to y'all.

Violet_Flux

Thankyou @kpk54! We read the first few pages and several of the links in there. That was interesting stuff about the hormones. I am sure we read some of that stuff before, Steph read several books about lowcarb and fasting and that hormone stuff was familiar.

We'll try and keep in mind about taking breaks now and then, but I think we've just finished like a 52 week break lol and need to get back into the lowcarb zone haha.

canadjineh

Hi @Violet_Flux! Nice to see an update, wondered how things were going. Hopefully your new therapist can be even more helpful for all of you. Out of curiosity, do you fill in your therapist on your eating plan, and are there some suggestions they have to help with LC compliance from all your identities? Admittedly, I don't know much about DID, but is there a way to come to a consensus with all your identities without one in particular 'taking charge?' Or is that way of dealing with things unhelpful? I understand if you choose to limit what you share here. (((hugs)))

Violet_Flux

Hiya @canadjineh! They only just met the new T and just started yesterday so they havent really talked so much yet. SMaybe soon they will get to talk about eating. Violet is the one who is around most soshe sorta acts like the boss lol. We dont hafta do what she says but too much fighting makes us all tired. Its sad not getting to ahve icecream and candy but its no fun being sick so we'll try to be good. Violet says we gotta learn other ways to have treats instead of food. Do stuff thats fun instead of eating snacks.

Violet_Flux

Hey everyone!

Gonna do an update to our 'crazy thread' here lol. Its been a while and there's been a buncha big changes and stuff with us again. As usual lol.

So its been like over 2 years now since the whole breakdown thing. For folks who don't wanna read the whole thread, we have DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) and it was like, stealth / undiagnosed for most of our life, then 2 years ago everything fell apart and the person we were for most of our adult life disappeared and a bunch of us had to take over and try to figure out how to live life and stuff.

We found out this is generally referred to as a "DID crisis" where like, your whole life falls apart and everything seems crazy. It can last a few months, a few years, or it can just be like forever. For us its 2 years & counting, and maybe this is how its gonna be forever. We dunno.

There's like, almost 20 of us sharing this body and we're all way younger. We don't all like, take over and use the body, most of us just live 'inside'. The ones who do use the body mostly are like, there's 2 teenagers, 2 young adults, and a couple little kids. We all have different names and stuff, different like, interests and opinions and whatever. And different education and stuff I guess? Like some of us are more wordy and whatever than others.

So every time we think stuff's finally got sorted out and starting to settle down, stuff gets all shuffled and messed up again. After like 2 years we finally gotta accept that the mental stuff's not gonna get solved any time soon, maybe not ever. So we gotta just live with it and get on with the other life stuff? Including looking after the body and eating right and stuff.

Except I've been the one doing most of the fronting (being in the body) since like, October, and I was really bad at that stuff. Like, carb addict, junkfood addict, and I don't know how to cook so all I was eating is like, processed heat-n-eat kinda stuff. And junkfood. I knew it was bad for us and stuff but its like, I was addicted. Couldn't stop.

So - this is where it gets crazier lol - I know cats are obligate carnivors and that's kinda keto/low carb right? I got the idea to become part-cat. See the profile pic lol! Call it magic, hypnotism, or just crazy lol but we have someone inside who's got power and stuf and I had her change me. And it worked!

Overnight I stopped craving carbs and junkfood and soda and sweets and all the other stuff I'd been binging on constantly! Nov 24th I went to bed a carb-addict an Nov 25 I woke up hardcore keto! We started logging Nov 25. Not strict carnivor like i have a bit of spinach every day.

I gotta be careful tho with what i eat cos i've found out the hard way that stuff that's toxic to cats makes me sick too. Like we had some earl grey tea one day and that made me really sick, so we read about it and found out its got 'bergemot oil' in it which is toxic. Orange pekoe is ok tho, but i gotta limit the dose cos caffein.

On the plus side, catnip makes me mellow & giggly, so there's some advantages too! And I've tried eating catfood (dry kibble) and kitty treats lol! The catfood is ok but not my first choice. The treats are good for like a little crunchy snack.

I still can't really cook yet, but I know how to make like bacon&eggs, and I can reheat leftovers. So I make bacon&eggs for breakfast and reheat leftovers for dinner. older Violet takes over once or twice a week to cook up a bunch of proper food, like a big roast or whatever, and then theres lotsa leftovers for me for the rest of the week.

I'm trying tho to get Violet to teach me to cook more... like lastnight I tried making a steak and i overcooked it and burned my hand but gosh it was yummy!

Even if all this stuff is 'crazy' its working! Like I feel great, happy , positive. Eating healthy now!

Oh and yeah we're still in therapy. When I told our T about all this stuff she said it was a good creative way to solve the diet/health problem.

Anyways so that's where we are! I'm Viola, I'm a 17yo 'catgirl', stuck looking after this old-lady body and stuff. But so far we're sticking to the lowcarb / keto thing, we're keeping active and doing workouts and stuff, and even got some good cooperation going on inside with all our mental stuff.

For now it's mostly gonna be me here, but sometimes older Violet will be here instead. We don't like 'sign' our posts or whatever, but folks will probably notice the difference cos Violet 'talks' / types different than me.