Protein Percentage per Dr. Stephen Phinney
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kpk54
Posts: 4,474 Member
The 21 minute video is part 3 of a 3 part series by Phinney, a generally well respected researcher and advocate of ketogenic diets. I'll not interpret or summarize the video except to point out that he suggests 10%-20% maximum of your calories coming from protein at the beginning of the video. At the end of the video he indicates 10-20% of your calorie intake come from protein.
He also discusses salt intake, types of fat intake and fasting. 3 other subject that are near and dear to the hearts of those on ketogenic diets. Enjoy and discuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0NE8WEH44A
He also discusses salt intake, types of fat intake and fasting. 3 other subject that are near and dear to the hearts of those on ketogenic diets. Enjoy and discuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0NE8WEH44A 3
Replies
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Excellent! Thank you for the video.
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I think a good thing to point out is that he has the goal of ~15-20% protein for people who are NOT trying to lose weight. His dietary example he gives early on is for 600 kcal of protein, which is about 150 g, or 21% of his total maintenance calories (~2800 kcal).
That same protein intake while losing would be 30% if one ate 1800 calories.
Good video. he always makes a lot of sense. 2 -
Yes. I saw the 21% on the bottom of graphic. Would have been better if, since he advocate 10-15% or absolute maximum of 20%, that his example not be above his absolute maximum.
Overall what was surprising to me was the percentage of 10-15%. It's the 1st I've seen a percentage by him. With the high protein numbers I see here and elsewhere I was surprised it was that low. 15% of my maintenance calories (thus tdee) is only 225 or 56 grams of protein...for a Well Formulated Ketogenic Diet per Phinney.
He consistently says the amount of protein doesn't change as one goes through the phases (starting at about 16 minutes). I'll guess he means grams? Or does he mean applied percent? The number of grams does change with weightloss. If I were to apply 15% to my tdee at 200 pounds that would be different than 15% at 140 pounds. 75 grams versus 56 grams. The issues with applying percentages has been discussed many times. Perhaps what is missing in the explanation is (tdee) "at ideal weight"? Then the amount wouldn't change.
Frankly I'm glad for the lower than I expected percentage. It puts him more in line with Rosedale and Longo. IMO. Their research interests me.1 -
Yeah, I wondered about that 21% too. LOL
I wish he would state what high protein actually is. 150g of protein could potentially be HALF of a dieting woman's total calories, or almost 3 times the minimum recommended by government sources.
I wish he would come out and say the average man should have about Xg of protein, and add on Yg if active. And then do the same for women. It would simplify things. Some 1200 kcal woman might see 10% for protein and only eat 120 kcal, or 30g of protein, just like you were saying... He needs to make it clearer that the percentage he gives is not to be used with a low calorie intake... Maybe he forgot about us women?
His pie chart was a bit misleading too. It looks like protein is lower while losing, and I was under the impression that getting protein higher from the start will help reduce lean tissue loss while dieting, especially the first few days of keto when lean losses are slightly higher (before fat and ketones are really embraced by the body as the primary fuels).
I do think some people are getting more protein than they need, but it might be better for many to err on the side of slightly more protein than you need compared to slightly less than you need. 10% just seems low.2 -
I was glad too because I just can't do a higher protein. I've tried. I thought the following read was a good one:
https://www.ketovangelist.com/choosing-your-keto-method-a-study-in-pictures/
The author compares herself with another ketoer. While one of them does awesome on higher proteins, the other does not. What we all have to do from time to time is just experiment with our macros and see what works for us right now. But so many folks push high protein that I was really glad to hear him give the numbers he gave. KCKO 2 -
I think moderately high protein makes sense but I can't really seem to get there. I hit 100g sometimes but I am usually 70-80g, and even than is work.... And I'm eating mostly carnivore! LOL I just don't like lean meats enough to get my protein much higher. I could easily let it go lower if I go by taste and cravings. I'm around 20-25 % protein right now.
@RAC56 what is your protein sweet spot? 0 -
this really depends on how much and heavy workouts you doing.
i donate 3x plasma in 14 days (thats maximum allowed each 850 ml), and they test my blood every time.
with 2 gr of protein/lean bodymass in kg (145 gr), i ran out of my protein in blood, and i had to wait for donation a week to build up again.
i tried to take 180 gr protein... no way! i ran out again in short time. i do heavy workouts up to 5 times/week and i need 210-220gr protein per 70 kg lean bodymass to prevent running out of protein while donating! btw: same happend to my wife, she is doing also heavy workouts, 4x / week.1 -
Freischuetz wrote: »this really depends on how much and heavy workouts you doing.
i donate 3x plasma in 14 days (thats maximum allowed each 850 ml), and they test my blood every time.
with 2 gr of protein/lean bodymass in kg (145 gr), i ran out of my protein in blood, and i had to wait for donation a week to build up again.
i tried to take 180 gr protein... no way! i ran out again in short time. i do heavy workouts up to 5 times/week and i need 210-220gr protein per 70 kg lean bodymass to prevent running out of protein while donating! btw: same happend to my wife, she is doing also heavy workouts, 4x / week.
Interesting. So they won't take more plasma if your blood protein falls below a certain level.... Is that albumins and globulins? I honestly have never given them a thought in terms of diet.0 -
i will go again on friday and have to ask the doc there what exactly they measure.0
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I think moderately high protein makes sense but I can't really seem to get there. I hit 100g sometimes but I am usually 70-80g, and even than is work.... And I'm eating mostly carnivore! LOL I just don't like lean meats enough to get my protein much higher. I could easily let it go lower if I go by taste and cravings. I'm around 20-25 % protein right now.
@RAC56 what is your protein sweet spot?
I'm still trying to figure it out, lol. I've got it narrowed down to somewhere between 55 to 70g.0 -
Sounds like you've narrowed it down pretty exactly. 0
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so i could ask doc today, about measuring protein in blood while donating plasma.
overall protein in blood have to be between 6 and 8 gr/dl (dezi liter). i did ask about measuring a special protein, but answer was: „overall protein“
hope that makes sense...?0 -
Freischuetz wrote: »so i could ask doc today, about measuring protein in blood while donating plasma.
overall protein in blood have to be between 6 and 8 gr/dl (dezi liter). i did ask about measuring a special protein, but answer was: „overall protein“
hope that makes sense...?
I think it must be albumins and globulins. Low levels can indicate low protein intake, but I think it is more often associated with some health issues.
It would be interesting to see how high protein intake vs lower would affect it, if at all.
Thanks for coming back to this. 0 -
I think moderately high protein makes sense but I can't really seem to get there. I hit 100g sometimes but I am usually 70-80g, and even than is work.... And I'm eating mostly carnivore! LOL I just don't like lean meats enough to get my protein much higher. I could easily let it go lower if I go by taste and cravings. I'm around 20-25 % protein right now.
@RAC56 what is your protein sweet spot?
I'm still trying to figure it out, lol. I've got it narrowed down to somewhere between 55 to 70g.
How are you determining what your sweet spot is?0 -
I think a good thing to point out is that he has the goal of ~15-20% protein for people who are NOT trying to lose weight. His dietary example he gives early on is for 600 kcal of protein, which is about 150 g, or 21% of his total maintenance calories (~2800 kcal).
That same protein intake while losing would be 30% if one ate 1800 calories.
Good video. he always makes a lot of sense.
It seems you might be misinterpreting what he is saying. The graph that he has in this link shows that protein on his version of a well formulated ketogenic diet is held constant: weight loss through maintenance. I happened to run across it today so though I would provide it for others. The link is current 4/25/18. I'll guess he has had a need to clarify this due to the current high protein fad trend.
https://blog.virtahealth.com/top-keto-mistakes/0 -
I think a good thing to point out is that he has the goal of ~15-20% protein for people who are NOT trying to lose weight. His dietary example he gives early on is for 600 kcal of protein, which is about 150 g, or 21% of his total maintenance calories (~2800 kcal).
That same protein intake while losing would be 30% if one ate 1800 calories.
Good video. he always makes a lot of sense.
It seems you might be misinterpreting what he is saying. The graph that he has in this link shows that protein on his version of a well formulated ketogenic diet is held constant: weight loss through maintenance. I happened to run across it today so though I would provide it for others. The link is current 4/25/18. I'll guess he has had a need to clarify this due to the current high protein fad trend.
https://blog.virtahealth.com/top-keto-mistakes/
The graph he shows (around 3:40) appears to have a bit less protein while losing. But in other areas I've seen him say that protein should be not low while losing and to keep it a bit higher...
If he stuck with around 20% protein while losing, it would be towards the low end for some. I think his chart gave the example of 1400 kcal while losing. 20% of that is only 280 kcal, or 70g protein. That half of his maintenance protein.
On the other hand, if he stuck with his 600 kcal, or 150 g, of protein while losing, that's over 40% of his 1400 calories.
IDK. Maybe I don't know what he's saying. Lol
He seems to be saying a couple of different things, like you don't need to eat high protein in grams, although it looks high in a percentage when you are losing due to lower total calories.
He probably should clarify that better. 0 -
Dr. Ben Bikman has spoken about protein on several podcasts recently, such as this one that has a timeline that you can scan if you don't have time to listen: https://www.biohackerslab.com/ep42-dr-benjamin-bikman/
He makes the point that keeping protein too low can be a problem especially as we age past 40, and says don't fear gluconeogenesis, which the body needs for proper functioning.
excerpt (boldface is my emphasis):
[25:57] – We discuss why it is important to be reasonable with what level of ketones is optimal. Ben explains how chasing high ketone levels often leads to people avoiding protein to their detriment. Yes, protein can increase insulin, but it also increases glucagon which counters that. It is important to make sure we are getting one to two grams per kilo of bodyweight of protein to help preserve muscle mass and optimise muscle protein synthesis. We have previously talked to Dr Stuart Phillips about the importance of getting protein right on the ketogenic diet.
[30:06] – Gary recently finished his carnivore diet experiment (see his results and experience on YouTube here) where he ate an all meat diet like Dr Shawn Baker and Amber O’ Hearn. A lot of people in that community are ketogenic carnivores. Ben explains that even when choosing the fattiest cuts of meat, you are still eating mostly protein, but this is nothing to fear.
[31:34] – Ben explains what insulin and glucagon do in response to dietary protein. A study from Roger Unger’s lab showed that the response is very different in carb fed people vs low carb people. Insulin to glucagon ratio increases 20-fold in high carb individuals whereas there is no change in low carb people. Ben explain why gluconeogenesis is essential to our survival and why we presume it prevents insulin from spiking in low carb people.
[34:14] – Gary’s ketones increased when he was on a strict, all meat diet and so his insulin was probably in better control. Ben’s three-step diet tip: 1. Control the Carbs, 2. Prioritise Proteins, and 3. Fill with Fat.0 -
My reason for starting this thread originally was to show what Phinney indicates to be a well formulated ketogenic diet. 10%-20% (max) of one's calories (as in maintenance calories).
I believe I misspoke above when stating @nvmomketo might perhaps be misinterpreting. Sorry. Per the graph in the link (which is basically the dialogue of the video) protein calories remain constant @360 throughout weight loss to maintenance and yes, 360 calories is a higher percent of a smaller amount of deficit calories than of higher maintenance calories.
My original point remains the same. Per Phinney, a well formulated ketogenic diet is only 10-20% max of one's (maintenance) calories. I tend to review his research as a guide which is to say I personally don't subscribe to the often stated idea of eating 1 protein gram per pound of my ideal weight which would be 140 grams and may well have quit long ago if I felt it was "required" that I eat 140 grams of protein to lose weight.
Even using 20% of my maintenance calories as protein, that is only 70 protein grams (1500x.20=300 calories/4=75 grams) VERSUS 140 grams. A pretty substantial difference. VASTLY different if applied to lower weight loss calories of many.
What I extrapolate from the text and video (for perhaps a newbie): is determine an "ideal weight", apply 10-20% for protein to the calories needed for that weight, enter that amount in MFP to your deficit calories as your target amount of calories from protein (divided by 4 =grams and MFP does that for you). As you progress towards maintenance and adjust maintenance calories up, the added calories come from added fat. Protein grams/calories will remain constant since they were derived from projected maintenance calories...
...If interested in following a well formulated ketogenic diet per Phinney. Yes? In the end, if one wants to follow Phinney's version of a well formulated ketogenic diet, one would be obtaining only 10-20% of their maintenance calories from protein.
I've noted an increased interest in ketogenic diets and those interested cross all eating styles. Raw vegan to carnivore. Applying the 10-20% protein amount may "ease the application" with those from the vegetarian and vegan community who have interest in eating a ketogenic diet as a health measure.
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Dr. Ben Bikman has spoken about protein on several podcasts recently, such as this one that has a timeline that you can scan if you don't have time to listen: https://www.biohackerslab.com/ep42-dr-benjamin-bikman/
He makes the point that keeping protein too low can be a problem especially as we age past 40, and says don't fear gluconeogenesis, which the body needs for proper functioning.
excerpt (boldface is my emphasis):
[25:57] – We discuss why it is important to be reasonable with what level of ketones is optimal. Ben explains how chasing high ketone levels often leads to people avoiding protein to their detriment. Yes, protein can increase insulin, but it also increases glucagon which counters that. It is important to make sure we are getting one to two grams per kilo of bodyweight of protein to help preserve muscle mass and optimise muscle protein synthesis. We have previously talked to Dr Stuart Phillips about the importance of getting protein right on the ketogenic diet.
[30:06] – Gary recently finished his carnivore diet experiment (see his results and experience on YouTube here) where he ate an all meat diet like Dr Shawn Baker and Amber O’ Hearn. A lot of people in that community are ketogenic carnivores. Ben explains that even when choosing the fattiest cuts of meat, you are still eating mostly protein, but this is nothing to fear.
[31:34] – Ben explains what insulin and glucagon do in response to dietary protein. A study from Roger Unger’s lab showed that the response is very different in carb fed people vs low carb people. Insulin to glucagon ratio increases 20-fold in high carb individuals whereas there is no change in low carb people. Ben explain why gluconeogenesis is essential to our survival and why we presume it prevents insulin from spiking in low carb people.
[34:14] – Gary’s ketones increased when he was on a strict, all meat diet and so his insulin was probably in better control. Ben’s three-step diet tip: 1. Control the Carbs, 2. Prioritise Proteins, and 3. Fill with Fat.
Yes. I value research by PhDs. They hone in on specifics to prove or disprove versus having what I consider more of a generalist approach of an MD-specifics being "better" IMO. Phinney is both MD and PhD. The "kicked out of ketosis" and gluconeogenisis info is always interesting and debated. Just like protein amount. I've listened to most ( I think) of Bikman's videos. Do you know of any where he indicates an ideal amount of protein?
As a side note, I looked up his bio and see he went to East Carolina University for his PhD. Cool! From the perspective that ECU is the alma mater of my (step) daughter and son-in-law. They were in metal design. The medical school is well thought of. My favorite neurologist is an ECU grad and what I consider the best for my neurological movement disorder. I was in fact referred to him by another local neurologist as being "the best" in his field as a movement disorder specialist. I agree. 1 -
I just wanted to add that the ideal protein for each of us is probably different, given age, health situations, how athletic we are and whatever else affects our reactions to what we eat. N=1 is the best way to figure out your best levels, though it can be hard to know when you are on the right track. kcko!1
