PROTEIN POWER!
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Crisseyda
Posts: 532 Member
Has anyone else watched Dr. Ted Naiman's recent lecture on protein on Diet Doctor, "Too Much Protein is Better Than Too Little"? My mind is blown!
All living things eat to satisfy their species-specific protein target. If the food is lower in protein and higher in carb/fat, the organism will naturally eat more of it. (Take our current food supply, which has been massively diluted with pure energy in the form of refined carbs and vegetable oils).
The most surprising ideas to me were:
1. At the lower end of protein intake, carbs vs. fats don't really make a difference, the total energy intake will still be the same (very high).
(Caveat: at the absolute lowest protein intake of 5%, total energy was very low because the cost of weight gain is too high--this is the kind of diet where you eat like 30 bananas a day and still lose weight, and, of course, you are muscle-wasting, and you're bones are thinning).
2. At the higher end of protein intake, you start to see a difference between the effects of carb vs. fats (higher portion of carb will cause higher intake of total energy).
3. The higher the protein intake, the lower the total energy intake, and improvements seen on all fronts. High protein has no ill effects. High protein does not inhibit ketosis in the context of a low carb diet.
Could it really all be about protein, instead of carbs??? I think there is some powerful data here, but one important thing to note: they are talking about changes in calorie intake and not weight gain/loss. We all know equal calorie intake does NOT equate to equal weight gain/loss, but is dependent on the ratios of macro- and micro-nutrients.
Long story short, I'm back on MFP to track my protein intake to a target of 130 g per day (1 g per pound of ideal body weight, per Dr. Naiman's recommendation). He also says that the ideal human target (from ad libitum studies) is 2 g of protein per 1 g of fat (which is found in meat). I've already realized that many days, I am not eating enough protein. I feel like I've eaten SO much food in the last few days--yet, I've lost 3 lbs, and my abs look more defined.
I feel like THIS is the power that the carnivores have discovered: PROTEIN POWER. As I've been aiming to eat 130 g of protein per day, I really don't have any room or desire to eat anything other than meat. I'm so full and so satisfied.
All living things eat to satisfy their species-specific protein target. If the food is lower in protein and higher in carb/fat, the organism will naturally eat more of it. (Take our current food supply, which has been massively diluted with pure energy in the form of refined carbs and vegetable oils).
The most surprising ideas to me were:
1. At the lower end of protein intake, carbs vs. fats don't really make a difference, the total energy intake will still be the same (very high).
(Caveat: at the absolute lowest protein intake of 5%, total energy was very low because the cost of weight gain is too high--this is the kind of diet where you eat like 30 bananas a day and still lose weight, and, of course, you are muscle-wasting, and you're bones are thinning).
2. At the higher end of protein intake, you start to see a difference between the effects of carb vs. fats (higher portion of carb will cause higher intake of total energy).
3. The higher the protein intake, the lower the total energy intake, and improvements seen on all fronts. High protein has no ill effects. High protein does not inhibit ketosis in the context of a low carb diet.
Could it really all be about protein, instead of carbs??? I think there is some powerful data here, but one important thing to note: they are talking about changes in calorie intake and not weight gain/loss. We all know equal calorie intake does NOT equate to equal weight gain/loss, but is dependent on the ratios of macro- and micro-nutrients.
Long story short, I'm back on MFP to track my protein intake to a target of 130 g per day (1 g per pound of ideal body weight, per Dr. Naiman's recommendation). He also says that the ideal human target (from ad libitum studies) is 2 g of protein per 1 g of fat (which is found in meat). I've already realized that many days, I am not eating enough protein. I feel like I've eaten SO much food in the last few days--yet, I've lost 3 lbs, and my abs look more defined.
I feel like THIS is the power that the carnivores have discovered: PROTEIN POWER. As I've been aiming to eat 130 g of protein per day, I really don't have any room or desire to eat anything other than meat. I'm so full and so satisfied.
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This is probably the most debated aspect within the LCHF/Keto community because of the insulinogenic nature of some forms of protein. I feel like this forum group tends to lean on the PRO side of more protein as you're advocating but I personally believe that .5-.8grams/lb LBM is a good target. More then that only drains the wallet even if it didn't have the potential to interupt ketosis.0
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Eating more protein proved to make a huge difference to me.
I started out on keto following the “eat all the fats” and “not too much protein because it turns to cake” idea because that was the crowd I first found.
I lost 25 pounds pretty quick and I was a believer! Then I came across people debating the protein topic and those suggesting it did not in fact turn into glucose and was absolutely necessary made a compelling enough argument that I made the changes to increase protein and reduce fat to a ratio more like what you said Ted Naiman recommended.
I stopped losing weight immediately. Ive heard that same thing in groups all over from all kinds of people so they stop and go back to eating all the fat and restricting protein and they’re happily losing scale weight again.
Well... I have no regrets that I stopped losing weight because once you see what happened to my body composition even without consistent exercise it becomes obvious that I made the right decision and it makes you wonder what I actually lost to create 25 pounds of scale weight loss with so little fat loss. It’s pretty scary.
And every time I see someone say they stop losing weight when they eat more protein I cringe because I wonder if it’s just because they stop wasting muscle and losing bone density. I obviously don’t know for sure that’s what happened but I can’t imagine another explanation.
I went from about 50-70g protein and 100-150g fat to about 100-150g protein and 60-100g fat though I stopped tracking shortly after making the changes. I stopped adding fat to anything and only using minimal needed for cooking and stopped adding stuff to coffee and such.4 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ I wish I was organized and took pictures like that! Kids and work keep me going non-stop. I think I was under-eating protein because fasting has become so effortless, I'm so busy, there's almost nothing decent to eat outside of home-cooked food, and I figured one or two large meals per day was sufficient. I didn't realize how much I was diluting my protein intake filling up on extras like berries and cream. At this point, I'm sometimes having to force feed myself to get to 130g/day, but I still feel energetic and lean. I'll keep you posted!1
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I think it may be a combination of things. Protein is satiating to most people and higher carb can stimulate the appetite (and exacerbate some health issues). I follow the camp that says gluconeogenesis is demand driven, although sometimes a less healthy liver will make too much as seen in most T2Ds.
I do find that when I eat mainly meats, I can't eat as much. It eventually hits the point where eating becomes undesirable, or yuck. I don't hit that with carbs. If carbs are lower I am less hungry, but I can't really separate that from increased fat or protein. If carbs drop, something has to go up.
As it is, right now I am eating mostly carnivore. Eating even 20g of carbs makes me a bit hungrier than no plants at all. My protein is not much higher eating this way though so I think less carbs, or more fat, has something to do with it. I still struggle to get close to 100g of protein whether carnivore or no.
Benjamin Bikman (sp?) has a good recent talk on protein. I'll try to find it.2 -
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Wow, a picture says a thousand words. What a difference!!Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Eating more protein proved to make a huge difference to me.
... I have no regrets that I stopped losing weight because once you see what happened to my body composition even without consistent exercise it becomes obvious that I made the right decision and it makes you wonder what I actually lost to create 25 pounds of scale weight loss with so little fat loss. It’s pretty scary.
And every time I see someone say they stop losing weight when they eat more protein I cringe because I wonder if it’s just because they stop wasting muscle and losing bone density.2 -
Very interesting. I'm doing Keto but I'm definitely not in the "Super High Fat" camp, though I do try to make sure that my fat calories make up at least half of my total daily allowance because that is where I feel best. I am actively losing weight so I'm not routinely hitting the 1g protein per 1kg of lean body mass, but I do generally make sure that my fat gram consumption is about equal to my protein gram consumption. I don't personally believe that you necessarily lose lean muscle when following a keto diet, but do believe that you still need a certain amount of protein to actually build lean protein. I've lost 60lbs so far with another 80 to go and I'm definitely going to be taking lots of progress pics, I've been inspired by @Sunny_Bunny_2
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WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Very interesting. I'm doing Keto but I'm definitely not in the "Super High Fat" camp, though I do try to make sure that my fat calories make up at least half of my total daily allowance because that is where I feel best. I am actively losing weight so I'm not routinely hitting the 1g protein per 1kg of lean body mass, but I do generally make sure that my fat gram consumption is about equal to my protein gram consumption. I don't personally believe that you necessarily lose lean muscle when following a keto diet, but do believe that you still need a certain amount of protein to actually build lean protein. I've lost 60lbs so far with another 80 to go and I'm definitely going to be taking lots of progress pics, I've been inspired by @Sunny_Bunny_
that sums it up for me too. I don't think keto causes extra lean mass loss compared to any other diet, beyond the first couple of days when your glycogen has fallen and is being replaced. I think keto is actually just as lean tissue sparing as a higher carb diet although the muscles may look a bit depleted at first with those water losses.
I'm looking forward to more research coming out in this area over the next few years.1 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »I am actively losing weight so I'm not routinely hitting the 1g protein per 1kg of lean body mass, but I do generally make sure that my fat gram consumption is about equal to my protein gram consumption.
Hi Just to clarify, are you talking 1g per kg or per pound of body mass?
Reading through the posts, (@Sunny_Bunny_) - Sorry, i misquoted you there ;-)) suggests its 1g per pound?
Not being pick here, just curious.
Thanks
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WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »I am actively losing weight so I'm not routinely hitting the 1g protein per 1kg of lean body mass, but I do generally make sure that my fat gram consumption is about equal to my protein gram consumption.
Hi Just to clarify, are you talking 1g per kg or per pound of body mass?
Reading through the posts, @Sunny_Bunny_ suggests its 1g per pound?
Not being pick here, just curious.
Thanks
Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
So for me, let's say in an average day I eat 60g of fat, I try to also eat around 60g of protein, but because fat is more calorie dense, more than double that of protein, I'm still easily able to hit my macro goals of 60% fat and 30% protein leaving a bit left over for carbs give or take. My best guess is that my lean mass is approx. 54kg, so my example day, I'm hitting right on target, days that I eat higher fat, I'm falling short of that target.
For now, I'm losing weight and this formula is working well for me. Honestly, I think a lot of this is an n=1 experiment and figuring out what works best for you. I've just started a strength training routine and I'm curious to see what changes I'm able to make to my body composition with this formula while still losing weight.
ETA I just googled because I was going to share a link, but there were so many articles and discussions and what not, that I'm just going to recommend that you google and peruse those that you see fit. A lot of great information out there on the interwebs
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WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
The 1gm / lb is typically lb of LBM(lean body mass) which is your weight minus your bodyfat, making it a lot less insane
I agree that it's more than needed for most...and aim for .8gm / lb LBM myself.
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@Sunny_Bunny_ Remind me as I can't remember. I know you eat mostly meat as veggies are toxic to you, but where are you in respect to dairy?0
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WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
The 1gm / lb is typically lb of LBM(lean body mass) which is your weight minus your bodyfat, making it a lot less insane
I agree that it's more than needed for most...and aim for .8gm / lb LBM myself.
The recommendation of 1g per kg of body weight is also for "lean body mass" as I did state. Not being argumentative, just making sure you realized that that is what I said in the quoted text. There are studies for both, I just align myself with the ones that say to go by kg of body weight, not pounds 0 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
The 1gm / lb is typically lb of LBM(lean body mass) which is your weight minus your bodyfat, making it a lot less insane
I agree that it's more than needed for most...and aim for .8gm / lb LBM myself.
The recommendation of 1g per kg of body weight is also for "lean body mass" as I did state. Not being argumentative, just making sure you realized that that is what I said in the quoted text. There are studies for both, I just align myself with the ones that say to go by kg of body weight, not pounds
Objection, argumentative!
lol just kidding.
Sorry missed the inference, thanks for clarifying in a non argumentative way 0 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ Remind me as I can't remember. I know you eat mostly meat as veggies are toxic to you, but where are you in respect to dairy?
I tolerate dairy fine but I don’t eat a lot because it adds too much fat and calories for my current goal to lose more fat.
I’ve been pretty heavy handed with the half n half and cheese the last year and have buckled down more recently to really work on losing more fat. So it’s super limited for that reason right now.0 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
So for me, let's say in an average day I eat 60g of fat, I try to also eat around 60g of protein, but because fat is more calorie dense, more than double that of protein, I'm still easily able to hit my macro goals of 60% fat and 30% protein leaving a bit left over for carbs give or take. My best guess is that my lean mass is approx. 54kg, so my example day, I'm hitting right on target, days that I eat higher fat, I'm falling short of that target.
Wait a minute! Are you really suggesting that 60g fat and 60g protein is healthy? Heck, even with a generous 50 grams of protein, you're under 1,000 calories a day. It would be much healthier if you did eat 1g of protein for every gram of lean body mass. 120 grams of protein would be fantastic for your body, and hardly even close to "insane" by any standards. 120 grams of protein and 120 grams of fat would be a much healthier and more appropriate amount. A few carb calories, and you're around 1,600 calories a day. That's much better.
Of course you're losing weight eating like this. Starvation works. No one argues that. It's just not healthy.2 -
@nvmomketo Great lecture! Seems to be in line with an article a read a while ago, by Amy Berger http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
I wasn't really concerned about protein turning into sugar, but I had no idea how independently powerful protein was on metabolism! I thought eating to satiety was good enough, but based on Ted Naiman and my macros tracking, it seems like I should be filling up on meat before (and if) I decide to eat anything else.0 -
Great lecture! Seems to be in line with an article a read a while ago, by Amy Berger http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
I wasn't really concerned about protein turning into sugar, but I had no idea how independently powerful protein was on metabolism! I thought eating to satiety was good enough, but based on Ted Naiman and my macros tracking, it seems like I should be filling up on meat before (and if) I decide to eat anything else.
I've always loved her. She makes sense.
Part of the reason I eat mostly carnivore is in an effort to increase my protein. I don't enjoy a lot of lean meats so my protein tends to stay low - especially when I only eat two meals a day with a snack. I still struggle to hit 100 g.... Although many think a carnivore diet is automatically high in protein.0 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
So for me, let's say in an average day I eat 60g of fat, I try to also eat around 60g of protein, but because fat is more calorie dense, more than double that of protein, I'm still easily able to hit my macro goals of 60% fat and 30% protein leaving a bit left over for carbs give or take. My best guess is that my lean mass is approx. 54kg, so my example day, I'm hitting right on target, days that I eat higher fat, I'm falling short of that target.
Wait a minute! Are you really suggesting that 60g fat and 60g protein is healthy? Heck, even with a generous 50 grams of protein, you're under 1,000 calories a day. It would be much healthier if you did eat 1g of protein for every gram of lean body mass. 120 grams of protein would be fantastic for your body, and hardly even close to "insane" by any standards. 120 grams of protein and 120 grams of fat would be a much healthier and more appropriate amount. A few carb calories, and you're around 1,600 calories a day. That's much better.
Of course you're losing weight eating like this. Starvation works. No one argues that. It's just not healthy.
Calm down there cowboy. Those numbers were just a for instance, an example, never did I say that was my actual daily number, just that those SAMPLE numbers would fit my macros. I average 1200-1500 calories per day very rarely, going below that, and even if I do, it’s not on purpose. And because I know you are super concerned, my numbers for today are 89g fat, 72g protein, 44g carb. That puts me right at a smidge over 1200 which is a 600 calorie deficit from my BMR.
And in honestly, I don’t need dietary advice from some random so please kindly go pound sand.
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WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »Not a typo, I meant 1g per kg of lean body mass. There is a lot of research out there to support this, 1g per pound would be an insane amount of protein for the average person and imho and that of many researchers, is just overkill.
So for me, let's say in an average day I eat 60g of fat, I try to also eat around 60g of protein, but because fat is more calorie dense, more than double that of protein, I'm still easily able to hit my macro goals of 60% fat and 30% protein leaving a bit left over for carbs give or take. My best guess is that my lean mass is approx. 54kg, so my example day, I'm hitting right on target, days that I eat higher fat, I'm falling short of that target.
Wait a minute! Are you really suggesting that 60g fat and 60g protein is healthy? Heck, even with a generous 50 grams of protein, you're under 1,000 calories a day. It would be much healthier if you did eat 1g of protein for every gram of lean body mass. 120 grams of protein would be fantastic for your body, and hardly even close to "insane" by any standards. 120 grams of protein and 120 grams of fat would be a much healthier and more appropriate amount. A few carb calories, and you're around 1,600 calories a day. That's much better.
Of course you're losing weight eating like this. Starvation works. No one argues that. It's just not healthy.
Calm down there cowboy. Those numbers were just a for instance, an example, never did I say that was my actual daily number, just that those SAMPLE numbers would fit my macros. I average 1200-1500 calories per day very rarely, going below that, and even if I do, it’s not on purpose. And because I know you are super concerned, my numbers for today are 89g fat, 72g protein, 44g carb. That puts me right at a smidge over 1200 which is a 600 calorie deficit from my BMR.
And in honestly, I don’t need dietary advice from some random so please kindly go pound sand.
I don't know that a group mod is a random.
But we're not going force you to do anything. We just recommend a healthy amount of protein.
Based upon the numbers given in the example, that wasn't it.
And we don't want a keto newbie to read that and think it is. You DID use first person after all. So someone might misread that. I did but I didn't have time to say anything.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and entitled to choose your own macros.
But you aren't entitled to talk ugly to other members of the group. This isn't the main forum. We are respectful to one another here.
TIA for toning it down next time.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU
