Ad Libitum August '18
Replies
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I'm ALL about this way of keto. I did CICO for the first 11 months of my keto journey and I hit a wall with weight loss, started losing hair like I was in chemo again, brittle nails, tired/no energy, loss of muscle mass, etc. Since November 2017 I've significantly increased my calories, reduced my protein and increased my fat and ATE all my fat. I stopped buying into the fat as a lever. I've lost about 10 pounds since increasing my calories and not really eating at a deficit.
Here's another great resource on why calories in calories out is not what it's cut out to be:
http://commonsenseketogenics.com/why-cico-calories-in-calories-out-isnt-true-and-why-insulin-glucagon-control-weight/
If someone is like me and has to know their numbers here's a great way to figure how much you need:
http://commonsenseketogenics.com/what-is-tdee-how-to-figure-it-out-and-what-is-the-point/
This was enough to convince me.
I had a concern though. In general, a good deal of protein is recommended to preserve muscle. Does that apply here? The article recommends a lot less than I eat. I do think it's worthwhile to keep in mind if so.
Edit: As it applies outside of this challenge mostly -- since for this challenge macros don't exist.1 -
Oh! And do we watch net, or total??1
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This was enough to convince me.
I had a concern though. In general, a good deal of protein is recommended to preserve muscle. Does that apply here? The article recommends a lot less than I eat. I do think it's worthwhile to keep in mind if so.
Edit: As it applies outside of this challenge mostly -- since for this challenge macros don't exist.
Protein is good, and you should eat it at every meal. In general, when you eat real foods, you will get enough protein. It's definitely something to at least be aware of. The third thing I ask, when people aren't losing weight like this (after have you reduced your carbs? and have you cut artificial sweeteners?) is "are you eating enough protein?" It is satiating and it also plays into your body's desires. If you're not getting enough of a nutrient, you will be hungry.
I only eat meat, so protein is easy for me to hit. That's not a requirement or goal for this. The meat-only (also called carnivore or zerocarb) thing is a whole different beast. You should probably build your meals and snacks around a protein source. But, I don't even say that you need to. In the original challenge, people were told to keep doing what they had been doing and just watch carbs and nothing else.Oh! And do we watch net, or total??
Net carbs are permitted. I do encourage you to count sugar-alcohol carbs (either as towards your goal or separately just for information). They tend to throw people off, so having an idea of how much you're eating or counting them against your daily goal helps.
If you normally go by total, you can continue to do so. Another part of this is finding where you need to keep your carbs that works for your body. It's different for everyone. And, you should count those in a manner that works best for you.2 -
Ok, willing to try for August and not wait until September. I do count total carbs already and only look at calories if I've not had enough (which usually means I didn't log properly anyway).
Pretty good at judging what won't work without a label and am lucky in that I'm not terrible sensitive sugar alcohols. I do try to eat on the whole food side normally. My vacation trip meals are already planned so no worries there. My business trip should be fine for breakfast and dinner. I'll just have to be prepared to leave the hotel for lunch on my own if what they are serving is off limits.
Thanks for the encouragement!
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I'm ALL about this way of keto. I did CICO for the first 11 months of my keto journey and I hit a wall with weight loss, started losing hair like I was in chemo again, brittle nails, tired/no energy, loss of muscle mass, etc. Since November 2017 I've significantly increased my calories, reduced my protein and increased my fat and ATE all my fat. I stopped buying into the fat as a lever. I've lost about 10 pounds since increasing my calories and not really eating at a deficit.
Here's another great resource on why calories in calories out is not what it's cut out to be:
http://commonsenseketogenics.com/why-cico-calories-in-calories-out-isnt-true-and-why-insulin-glucagon-control-weight/
If someone is like me and has to know their numbers here's a great way to figure how much you need:
http://commonsenseketogenics.com/what-is-tdee-how-to-figure-it-out-and-what-is-the-point/
This was enough to convince me.
I had a concern though. In general, a good deal of protein is recommended to preserve muscle. Does that apply here? The article recommends a lot less than I eat. I do think it's worthwhile to keep in mind if so.
Edit: As it applies outside of this challenge mostly -- since for this challenge macros don't exist.
I eat around 55-60 grams of protein a day. On days I lift I might take it up to 70 just depending on how I feel. The founder of Common Sense Keto has been doing this way of Keto for over 10 years and he's a CrossFit Coach/Athlete. He's shredded and not losing muscle by eating less protein. I think his max protein a day is around 800 -
I'm sold! Inspired to start today. I'm 3 weeks in and its been a real eye opener to log my food to see how many carbs I'm eating - but sure enough, I soon became obsessed with calorie intake too. and protein. I spent hours trying to figure out how to meet my macros.. as a result, my food options became rather narrow and I am constantly on the diary site trying to figure out good combinations.
I am SO over that! Particularly because I had no intent to become so obsessed. I just wanted to do LCHF. But man.. there are so many discussions that sway and influence one to rethink... it made my diet (err.. my intended new lifestyle) so darn complicated.
So sign me up! I have mountains to lose, so one month wont make a difference in the bigger scheme of things
Unless it works - then it'll be the best. thing. ever.
Yea this makes me so happy to read especially when the other day you wanted to stay between 1200-1300 calories!!!!1 -
I eat around 55-60 grams of protein a day. On days I lift I might take it up to 70 just depending on how I feel. The founder of Common Sense Keto has been doing this way of Keto for over 10 years and he's a CrossFit Coach/Athlete. He's shredded and not losing muscle by eating less protein. I think his max protein a day is around 80
Protein is outside the scope of this challenge, but we'e had tons of discussions on why low protein tends to be significantly worse than too much. Too much protein is almost harmless, too little is a major long-term issue. I did google him to see what his advice is, and I hate to say that I just don't agree. There is almost no one who has "too much protein" as a negative issues that is hindering their ketogenic diet (outside of those who are on a therapeutic diet and absolutely must keep blood ketone levels sky high).3 -
I eat around 55-60 grams of protein a day. On days I lift I might take it up to 70 just depending on how I feel. The founder of Common Sense Keto has been doing this way of Keto for over 10 years and he's a CrossFit Coach/Athlete. He's shredded and not losing muscle by eating less protein. I think his max protein a day is around 80
Protein is outside the scope of this challenge, but we'e had tons of discussions on why low protein tends to be significantly worse than too much. Too much protein is almost harmless, too little is a major long-term issue. I did google him to see what his advice is, and I hate to say that I just don't agree. There is almost no one who has "too much protein" as a negative issues that is hindering their ketogenic diet (outside of those who are on a therapeutic diet and absolutely must keep blood ketone levels sky high).
I was going to chime in here as well, because I routinely eat 60-70 grams of protein with EACH meal and have no problem maintaining ketosis, weight loss and more importantly to me, muscle mass.3 -
Yea this makes me so happy to read especially when the other day you wanted to stay between 1200-1300 calories!!!!
Yeah - I dont know what I was thinking - counting everything started making me go mad! haha
I know this trial begins 1 August, but I celebrated my freedom starting today. Ate like I felt and my carbs still didnt rise over 20g. I totally ignored all other macros.
The last 3 weeks of CICO approach, if nothing else, has really shown me how many carbs I used to eat. I now have a much better understanding of where my carbs are coming from and what to avoid.
I'm still gonna log every day, just so I can come back see the whole picture later.
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Yea this makes me so happy to read especially when the other day you wanted to stay between 1200-1300 calories!!!!
Yeah - I dont know what I was thinking - counting everything started making me go mad! haha
I know this trial begins 1 August, but I celebrated my freedom starting today. Ate like I felt and my carbs still didnt rise over 20g. I totally ignored all other macros.
The last 3 weeks of CICO approach, if nothing else, has really shown me how many carbs I used to eat. I now have a much better understanding of where my carbs are coming from and what to avoid.
I'm still gonna log every day, just so I can come back see the whole picture later.
That is awesome to hear. You have no idea. Logging is still good, I logged for a while, after I gave up the conscious restriction. Then I got to the point where I would log a week, just to see what was going on (not to try and manipulate the numbers). And, now, I don't know the last time I logged. It is so freeing to trust your body. It's unrelated, but I was once asked what the benefits of being zerocarb (carnivore) were for me. Part of my response is below:The biggest change is probably mental. [. . .] I have learned to trust my body. I don’t know if many here will understand how deep that really is. My whole adult-life, I had been constantly betrayed by my body when I didn’t strictly monitor what I ate and my activity level. When I ate because I was hungry, I got fatter. I would know I was eating too much, but I couldn’t stop myself. I knew my body was wrong.
Now, I can trust my body is right. If I am hungry, I eat. I don’t worry if it’s 5,000 calories in a day (and sometimes it is). I know my body is asking because it needs it. If I am not hungry, I don’t worry about it. I know I don’t need it. If I am feeling like going out for a walk or a run, I do. If I am feeling like sitting in the yard and enjoying the sun without moving except to reach for my iced coffee, I do that instead. No guilt about being lazy. No concern about getting fat and losing my muscle.
Now, these days, I do a bit more physical activity and have a goal for a certain amount every day. That's unrelated to weight loss or worry about being fat. It's more about strength and physical ability to engage in specific activities that I enjoy.4 -
I eat around 55-60 grams of protein a day. On days I lift I might take it up to 70 just depending on how I feel. The founder of Common Sense Keto has been doing this way of Keto for over 10 years and he's a CrossFit Coach/Athlete. He's shredded and not losing muscle by eating less protein. I think his max protein a day is around 80
Protein is outside the scope of this challenge, but we'e had tons of discussions on why low protein tends to be significantly worse than too much. Too much protein is almost harmless, too little is a major long-term issue. I did google him to see what his advice is, and I hate to say that I just don't agree. There is almost no one who has "too much protein" as a negative issues that is hindering their ketogenic diet (outside of those who are on a therapeutic diet and absolutely must keep blood ketone levels sky high).
I was going to chime in here as well, because I routinely eat 60-70 grams of protein with EACH meal and have no problem maintaining ketosis, weight loss and more importantly to me, muscle mass.
Yeah, 60 feels low to me. I realize people who recommend .8 g/km of IDEAL weight eat roughly that much. I have seen what higher protein alone with no other dietary changes can do for someone, so this whole thing has been extremely confusing. I personally try to average 95g. I remember reading that during weight loss the higher amount supposedly hinders insulin resistance healing -- but I wonder how true that is, I'd only seen a single study on it.
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Over on https://optimisingnutrition.com/2018/07/13/does-tim-ferriss-30g-of-protein-work/ - Marty Kendall did a great job analyzing about 500,000 MFP entries to test the hypothesis about getting protein early in the day helping to reduce over eating.
You can check it out for yourself, but spoiler alert - eating the bulk of your protein at breakfast makes it far less likely for you to overeat.
I learned this back in college when I used to frequent all you can eat type places. I knew if I ate a full box of cereal in the morning, I would be able to pack away 2-3 times as much when I went to the all you could eat restaurant. If I ate eggs and meat (ham, bacon or sausage), I would not be able to eat nearly as much.
My one other suggestion for all those joining this challenge is to eat real food. Putting MCT and/or butter into your coffee is not eating real food. I say this because I see a lot of people stall out because they feel like they have to hit their fat macro, so they add a bunch of no nutrient fat through fat bombs or BPC.
BPC does not help with satiety at all. Fat Bombs are often sweetened with something like stevia or erythritol, which may not have calories or net carbs, but for many they make things easy to overeat.
If you follow the rule of eat when you are hungry and only when you are hungry while eating real food, it is hard to not be successful on this plan.
As for counting carbs without tracking, I think Dr Westman's plan works pretty well. Just eat one cup (or less) of a non-starchy veggie and 2 cups (or less) of a leafy green per day. Outside of that, don't eat carbs. That will keep you around or under 20 g a day.
I changed over to not tracking about 2-3 weeks ago. I am in my target weight range (185 +/-5), but I eat this way for BG control. My BG has improved since I have stopped tracking. I think the added stress of tracking was a negative.6 -
Yep. Dr Eric Westman, Duke University Obesity Clinic. "If it's not on page 4 don't eat it". More people would succeed if they kept it this simple
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5564bef0e4b02c810ff236ad/t/5a9355f2e2c483bcb2b6cef0/1519605234635/Casey's+Keto+Food+List.pdf4 -
I'm sold! Inspired to start today. I'm 3 weeks in and its been a real eye opener to log my food to see how many carbs I'm eating - but sure enough, I soon became obsessed with calorie intake too. and protein. I spent hours trying to figure out how to meet my macros.. as a result, my food options became rather narrow and I am constantly on the diary site trying to figure out good combinations.
I am SO over that! Particularly because I had no intent to become so obsessed. I just wanted to do LCHF. But man.. there are so many discussions that sway and influence one to rethink... it made my diet (err.. my intended new lifestyle) so darn complicated.
So sign me up! I have mountains to lose, so one month wont make a difference in the bigger scheme of things Unless it works - then it'll be the best. thing. ever.
^^ This! Yep, feeling it. I don't want to "stress" about logging/not logging (even though it would be cool to look back at my progress). I am definitely down with trying something different.
I've been slowly figuring out what foods work for me and what doesn't. Seems protein is/has been my best friend... so this zerocarb August may work well for me. This will also pair with my giving up dairy for a month. I have a feeling that stuff may be the culprit of this GERD. **Loves cheese!
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Your avatar totally makes me think of Lil Dicky's brain
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Why Calories Count: From Science to Politics by Marion Nestle and Malden NesheimBe Aware of Calories, but Don't Count Them Obsessively
This advice may seem surprising coming from us. We do think everyone should have a ballpark idea of calorie needs and the calories in foods, which is why we favor food and menu calorie labels. But we can't advise calorie counting as a weight loss strategy, because it is too difficult to do precisely. Unless you weigh everything you eat and know how the foods were prepared, your guess is likely to be too far off to be helpful.
An odd quote from a book that is all about calories, but their overall recommendation is to pay more attention to what you are eating, and how much, and not the calories. They advise using scale weight and overall trends to determine if your plan is working. I don't agree with a lot of their stuff, but the book is excellent.
They also are a great resource for calorie number information. The fact that the 2,000 calories a day number is inadequate for most people was known when it was selected, and they discuss why. They include a good table for calorie needs:
They discuss where the 2,000 number comes from (when just about everyone on the table needs more than that).[. . .]the FDA originally intended to use 2,350 calories as the basis for comparison when it wrote the regulations for Nutrition Facts labels in 1993. This reflected the average number of calories reported as consumed in the USDA's dietary intake surveys of the time. But those who commented on the FDA's proposal did not like this number. They predicted that a 2,350-calorie standard would encourage overeating, especially among women. Instead, they suggested 2,000 as easier to use, consistent with popular food plans, and closer to the energy needs of postmenopausal women, a key target group for obesity prevention. They argued that the lower number would be more likely to help consumers understand that they might need more or less than 2,000 calories a day and should choose foods according to their own dietary needs.
[. . .]
By now it should be evident that 2,000 calories is much lower than either measurements or estimates of the total energy needs of all but the smallest and most sedentary people. We did warn you that these kinds of imprecisions might make you uncomfortable. Without participating in calorimeter, oxygen consumption, or doubly labeled water experiments, the best you can do is try to do better in estimating your total calorie needs.Despite the now-observable fact that 2,350 calories per day is below the average requirements for either men or women obtained from doubly labeled water experiments, most of the people who responded to the comments judged the proposed benchmark as too high. Nutrition educators worried that it would encourage overconsumption, be irrelevant to women who consume fewer calories, and permit overstatement of acceptable levels of “eat less” nutrients such as saturated fat and sodium. Instead, they proposed 2,000 calories as:- consistent with widely used food plans
- close to the calorie requirements for postmenopausal women, the population group most prone to weight gain
- a reasonably rounded-down value from 2,350 calories
- easier to use than 2,350 and, therefore, a better tool for nutrition education
Whether a rounding down of nearly 20 percent is reasonable or not, the FDA ultimately viewed these arguments as persuasive. It agreed that 2,000 calories per day would be more likely to make it clear that people needed to tailor dietary recommendations to their own diets. The FDA wanted people to understand that they must adjust calorie intake according to age, sex, activity, and life stage. It addressed the adjustment problem by requiring the percent Daily Value footnote on food labels for diets of 2,000 and 2,500 calories per day, the range of average values reported in dietary intake surveys.
Yes, the calorie discussion is fascinating. And, I am not ignorant of all sides of it. I still propose letting go of trying to control it.1 -
I’m in!
Before I got pregnant with my daughter I didn’t count calories or even carbs that much and lost about 50lbs in 6 months. I’ve already switched over to not logging every day. I’ll plug in a meal plan at the beginning of the week just to check the carbs and then go on my merry way ^_^
Good luck everyone!
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I am going to make a different group, for the challenge participants. That way we don't clutter things up in here. I will post a link to the weekly check-in thread in here. But, a different group provides some benefits. It's open only to those participating. It allows you to create your own threads and discussions and get responses from other people trying the same thing. It keeps the threads from getting buried and lost (which happens here a lot).
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/127716-low-carber-ad-libitum-experience
I have also structured this so that people can start at any time they want. The official challenge will start on August 1st. But, if someone wants to start after it begins, they can. They'll still get lined up with the rest of the participants because we'll do checkins by number of days and not fixed dates.
I know it's a minor hassle to join a second group. But, the trade off is one weekly massively long thread pinned to the top here, or a bunch of smaller threads that get buried and/or filled with off topic discussion.
I will still post the anonymized results after the month is over. But, no-one's weight or username will be included in the results. The only people who will know how anyone else did would be those participating.2 -
SenchaJill wrote: »Fascinating!
I’m curious about this too.
In regards to the MFP calorie count, would it work to simply set my calories really high and just ignore them?
I focus mainly on the macro ratios, keeping my carbs to max of 40g. But truth be told, I always have a sideways eye on those calories.
I’ve lost 60 pounds in the past year, slow and steady. But perhaps I’m calorie restricting.... and I’ve done the yo-yo nonsense plenty of times; I don’t want that.
I’m intrigued.
You could do that. I am now curious as to how MFP would handle a 10k calories/day goal. LOL1 -
I'm in. Have had great success with this before. Plan is to keep it simple, no grains, sugar, root veg or fruit other than berries. Starting today x1
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Please add me!0
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I just asked permission to join. I use the website (not phone app). Will we have to click on "Low Carbers" group or will it appear under Community as a group all its own?0
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It will be a group by itself. But, there will also be a link in here (pinned) that will get you to the weekly check-in when the month begins.0
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I might post this challenge in the keto group, as well. But, it probably won't increase the number of participants. I think most people in that group are also in this one.1
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Two days to go. I am so excited. Have 14 people officially signed up. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/127716-low-carber-ad-libitum-experience2
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@FIT_Goat I'd be fun to join and eat whenever/whatever with friends. But since hunger doesn't happen often with IF/Keto; low calories are clues to eat more (otherwise I get tired). Is there an option to watching calories?Two days to go. I am so excited. Have 14 people officially signed up. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/127716-low-carber-ad-libitum-experience
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I am so in!! I've been in this group about 2.5 years and had great success with keto upfront. I have experimented over the past 2 years with a mix of keto and LCHF and gradually gained 10 lbs over the past year. My digestive issues that cleared up when I started keto have come back somewhat as well. Recently I've been having a much harder time losing weight to get back to my goal range and am frustrated; this does sound liberating or at least worth trying, since logging doesn't seem to be working for me right now anyway! I keep going up and down the same 2 lbs.
Previously dairy, nuts and artificial sweeteners didn't seem to hinder my weight loss at all but I'm wondering if I may have developed a sensitivity to one or more of those, so I plan to at least cut back on the artificial sweeteners and possibly somewhat on dairy or nuts as well. (Probably experiment with one at a time to isolate the variable.)2 -
@FIT_Goat I'd be fun to join and eat whenever/whatever with friends. But since hunger doesn't happen often with IF/Keto; low calories are clues to eat more (otherwise I get tired). Is there an option to watching calories?Two days to go. I am so excited. Have 14 people officially signed up. https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/127716-low-carber-ad-libitum-experience
I moderate the zerocarb subreddit, and I am a bit more of a bigot over there than I am here. Part of our starting advice is for people to not IF. We encourage people to eat three times a day. Even if they don't feel hungry, sit down and have at least a few bites. You might be shocked, and find the body does want food but you have blunted the signals. When you have spent a long time trying to ignore the signals, you might need to relearn them. Eventually, a lot of zerocarb people move to 2 or even 1 meal a day, but we don't encourage that until they have learned to know when they are hungry.
So, that would be my advice. Try and eat at least a couple times a day. But, yes, you can watch calories to remind yourself to eat more. Hopefully, your appetite signals and recognition of them will improve to the point where you don't need to do that.2 -
Anyone else want to share their strategies for this challenge? Are u not tracking anything at all? Only carbs? Logging? Not logging?0
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This discussion has been closed.