Do you ever get mad at the CICO people?
Replies
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maureenkhilde wrote: »I have done mashed turnips as well. Actually I liked them better than mashing cauliflower. But like cauliflower roasted in oven with cheese last 5 to 8 minutes or so.
What I want to try next and will be a bit high, but not like mashed potatoes. Is mashed parsnips. We had it as a side when we were out to eat in September and it was fantastic. So I decided I would make with the cornish hens for Thanksgiving. I am one of the odd balls cannot stand Turkey.
I loooove parsnips, mmmmmmmm. I like to toss them in a little liquid bacon fat and roast them till the cut side is brown and toasty. Usually seasoned with just salt and pepper and maybe some granulated garlic.1 -
@psuLemon thanks for sharing. Your creations look amazing and that's impressive progress.
Is keto going well for your wife, too? It's definitely been beneficial for my PCOS. 0 -
macchiatto wrote: »@psuLemon thanks for sharing. Your creations look amazing and that's impressive progress. Is keto going well for your wife, too? It's definitely been beneficial for my PCOS.
For the most part, it has gone well. We are still educating her and working to reduce or eliminate making bad choices, especially when she goes out with friends. She struggles a bit with this internal battle. But she is down like 15 lbs which is good. So small steps. And given that she has gone through medical hell (like 8 surgeries in 8 years), any progress is good.2 -
just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
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Mod Hat
No drama, please.
The eyes of the Baconslave are upon you.
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just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
Then why do people on low carb lose so much more weight?
I’m not saying you don’t ever need to pay attention to calories, I’m saying there can be more to losing weight than just CICO and it’s frustrating that people jump all over anyone on the boards who dares mention low carb, keto, issues with sugar or fasting as a way to lose weight.
I personally lose weight 2-3x faster on low carb using the same MFP calculated calories so there is more to it than just CICO.0 -
just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
I would be careful of using anecdotal evidence. There are a plethora of factors that could cause you to lose faster on a keto or low carb diet. Some of those could be nutrient deficiencies caused by a higher carb diet or hormonal issues that are mitigated on keto.
Long term studies overall do not support keto being more effective at fat loss. Short term, yes but a lot of that can be contributed by glycogen/water loss. Metabolic ward studies also don't support your assertion. Where the studies i have seen supports Keto/lchf > low fat is from ad libitum eating, which is also often from higher levels of protein.
None of this disproves CICO. It does show there are many factors that could impact the CO part of the equation. And for record, i am losing a bit fast on keto currently, even with some moderate overfeeding. Its also why i support the eat more to lose more movement.4 -
just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
What laws are physics are you talking about? Do they have anything to do with our gut microbiome that can be a factor in our metabolic calorie burn rate that may vary from person to person because no two gut microbiomes are alike we are told.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
What laws are physics are you talking about? Do they have anything to do with our gut microbiome that can be a factor in our metabolic calorie burn rate that may vary from person to person because no two gut microbiomes are alike we are told.
Gale, metabolism is a part of CO. And given the research of gut microbiome is still in its infancy, it doesn't really provide much insight into anything. It certainly doesn't disprove CICO.1 -
I don’t understand why people who do not believe a low carb lifestyle can be helpful and beneficial take the time to join a closed group that is specifically created to support people who DO find the WOE helpful... then insert themselves into these conversations and debate low carb! I think most people use these forums for support and education, hopefully the overall tone will stay positive and the debates will stay on the other boards. Happy Tuesday everyone!4
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amckholmes wrote: »I don’t understand why people who do not believe a low carb lifestyle can be helpful and beneficial take the time to join a closed group that is specifically created to support people who DO find the WOE helpful... then insert themselves into these conversations and debate low carb! I think most people use these forums for support and education, hopefully the overall tone will stay positive and the debates will stay on the other boards. Happy Tuesday everyone!
The light is so beautiful they're just drawn to it.4 -
amckholmes wrote: »I don’t understand why people who do not believe a low carb lifestyle can be helpful and beneficial take the time to join a closed group that is specifically created to support people who DO find the WOE helpful... then insert themselves into these conversations and debate low carb! I think most people use these forums for support and education, hopefully the overall tone will stay positive and the debates will stay on the other boards. Happy Tuesday everyone!
You didn't read psuLemons other posts, did you? He is currently using a keto lifestyle to lose weight... Just because he posts alternate opinions and facts does not mean that he attacking either the poster to whom he is responding or the WOE.2 -
just_Tomek wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
What laws are physics are you talking about? Do they have anything to do with our gut microbiome that can be a factor in our metabolic calorie burn rate that may vary from person to person because no two gut microbiomes are alike we are told.
A ha.
I was surprised to learn how Quantum physics is related to health.0 -
CI and CO are both estimates...
We estimate not just our food consumption, but the approximate calories in it...even with weighing food, there's a margin of error, a range if you will, for what energy will be produced by any gram of any specific food. An apple grown in Va will probably not have the exact same calories as an apple grown in the UK. An adult digesting that apple with a healthy digestive system will not get exactly the same calories extracted as an adult with a disorder like Crohn's which impacts the bodies ability to absorb nutrition properly.
Individuals of the same age/height/weight do not have exactly the same metabolic rate...even a single person over time doesn't have a stable metabolic rate, there are many things that impact metabolism like sleep, exercise, hormone shifts, etc.
Everyone has to figure out for themselves what works for them. There is no one stop solution for everyone on the planet because there is way too much variety in the human population.5 -
You didn't read psuLemons other posts, did you? He is currently using a keto lifestyle to lose weight... Just because he posts alternate opinions and facts does not mean that he attacking either the poster to whom he is responding or the WOE.
I wasn’t referring to psuLemons comments, I regularly read his posts so I am aware. Was commenting on people who regularly interject their total disbelief in the WOE here on a specific group. <sigh>0 -
just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
Then why do people on low carb lose so much more weight?
I’m not saying you don’t ever need to pay attention to calories, I’m saying there can be more to losing weight than just CICO and it’s frustrating that people jump all over anyone on the boards who dares mention low carb, keto, issues with sugar or fasting as a way to lose weight.
I personally lose weight 2-3x faster on low carb using the same MFP calculated calories so there is more to it than just CICO.
Whatever food eliminating diet helps your lose weight and keep it off, be it keto, paleo, vegan etc. etc, only does so by caloric deficit. Nothing else. CICO applies each and every time.
I, for example, could not do keto. Fat does not keep me satiated and I would easily overeat, if I was not tracking, or walk around hungry all the time. I am a volume eater, I have to fill myself with a lot of low calorie food, read green leafy vegg, to stay full. So for me the "volume eating" diet works, but again it works only because of CICO.
Not that I disagree with this latest post at all, but...
Your first post in the thread was a provocatory quip. This last post was what you should have lead with
Just file that away for the future.
I'm curious. What does your carb count look like as a Volume Eater? For everyone's edification.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
What laws are physics are you talking about? Do they have anything to do with our gut microbiome that can be a factor in our metabolic calorie burn rate that may vary from person to person because no two gut microbiomes are alike we are told.
A ha.
I was surprised to learn how Quantum physics is related to health.
Not quantum. Laws of Thermodynamics.
Here's a blurb from KhanAcademy. And a link to a discussion that might shed light on the argument. Energy we process from food and use to run ourselves is said to behave in a certain way. That is the argument. It is Physics that bleeds over into Biology. They are not really separable. Energy (physics) behaves a particular way in this universe.What kind of system are you: open or closed? As it turns out, this is a physics question, not a philosophical one. You, like all living things, are an open system, meaning that you exchange both matter and energy with your environment. For instance, you take in chemical energy in the form of food, and do work on your surroundings in the form of moving, talking, walking, and breathing.
All of the exchanges of energy that take place inside of you (such as your many metabolic reactions), and between you and your surroundings, can be described by the same laws of physics as energy exchanges between hot and cold objects, or gas molecules, or anything else you might find in a physics textbook. Here, we’ll look at two physical laws – the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics – and see how they apply to biological systems like you.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/energy-and-enzymes/the-laws-of-thermodynamics/a/the-laws-of-thermodynamics0 -
I’m not sure how CICO works in my case. I’m trying to GAIN weight on keto! How do I do that?
Where are you struggling? And increase in calories, a good structured lifting program and consistency should help. You can run TKD if you want a potential increase in performance for lifting.
I’m not struggling. I was being facetious for the sake of getting the thread to realize that if keto was superior solely for weight loss, excluding the law of energy balance aka CICO, then how would one gain weight on keto?
I’d have hoped someone else (other than yourself since we’ve had agreeing points of view at length in other threads) would chime in to say “eat more” which would just confound the keto mantra of ignoring calories.
The thing most people seem to be adamant about is that whether they consciously pay attention to calorie intake, or not, is that energy balance is always present.
Yes, it’s physics.
No, we’re not bomb calorimeters.
A calorie both is and isn’t just a calorie.
Context matters.
Food matters.
Calories matter.
And the hierarchy of body composition will always follow:
1. Calories (In)
2. Activity level (Calories out)
In that order.
Smaller and/or less active people will need less calories compared to larger and/or more active people.
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Fascinating discussion!
Perhaps the disagreement stems from the fact that the CICO equation is different for every person, because every body burns calories slightly differently, if they have a different BMR, perhaps some kind of disorder, insulin resistance, more muscle mass, or something else that affects BMR that maybe hasn't even been identified by science yet. Many folks operate off of some caloric deficit equation recommendation they found online or in a book, and don't realize all the micro-variations that require it to be adjusted according to their specific needs and the specific ways in which they are meeting their optimum caloric deficit.
I get frustrated when I see people arguing in favor of CICO without taking into account the quality of calories, which can affect BMR negatively. There seldom seems to be a discussion about how certain foods can affect your BMR and insulin resistance (among other things), therefore appearing to throw off the necessary calories to achieve a deficit. Not to mention the reduction of BMR associated with a long term major caloric deficit.
But, likewise, I get annoyed when people say that Intermittent Fasting doesn't work, because it didn't work for them while they were eating a ton of junk food in their feeding windows, or Keto doesn't work, because it didn't work for them when they were eating low quality calories in favor of no carb high fat.1 -
just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
Then why do people on low carb lose so much more weight?
I’m not saying you don’t ever need to pay attention to calories, I’m saying there can be more to losing weight than just CICO and it’s frustrating that people jump all over anyone on the boards who dares mention low carb, keto, issues with sugar or fasting as a way to lose weight.
I personally lose weight 2-3x faster on low carb using the same MFP calculated calories so there is more to it than just CICO.
Whatever food eliminating diet helps your lose weight and keep it off, be it keto, paleo, vegan etc. etc, only does so by caloric deficit. Nothing else. CICO applies each and every time.
I, for example, could not do keto. Fat does not keep me satiated and I would easily overeat, if I was not tracking, or walk around hungry all the time. I am a volume eater, I have to fill myself with a lot of low calorie food, read green leafy vegg, to stay full. So for me the "volume eating" diet works, but again it works only because of CICO.
I think where some of it all gets lost, or maybe not. I am using low carb, not too far away from Keto. But I still totally understand that how it works is CICO. But for that to work successfully I had to find a deviation if you will. And for me it was low carb. Because just following what I will call straight CICO meaning that on normal everyday foods, was not cutting it for me. I had tried and failed many times over trying that method.
But on low carb, still hitting the same amount of calories, and exercise. But eating in a different way going low carb opposed to white bread, refined sugars, pasta. I find I am very successful, not hungry all of the time. With the added bonus that I discovered how to bake with the alternate sugars and flours. So I can still satisfy my sweet tooth, and lose weight.
And most important of all get my blood sugars and A1C down where it belongs as being a type 2 diabetic.
And here in your post, I think you are saying the same thing slightly different. Yes it is about CICO, but how you achieve it is by eating lots of low calorie foods, think lots of green leafy stuff. So a volume eater.
And to me I think that is what it boils down to. Yes it is CICO, but how each person decides to achieve it could be different. Low Carb, Keto, Volume eating, strictly CICO, Fasting, Intermittment Fasting, high fat, high fiber, WW, and all the ones people pay big money for.
I think what many people object to, is the perception that other people are shooting down, making fun, acting superior when they state what they are doing, or asking for advice on what they want to do.
Your posts come across as rather blunt, which is fine by me. But there are others that are rather cruel which is what I think has made some of this pop up. Just my humble opinion.4 -
I think you are onto something here, @maureenkhilde.
An individual may find they eat 1300 calories a day, lots of carbs, and they are always still hungry, so they cheat more, or fall of the wagon, so to speak, and therefore do not lose weight. Meanwhile, another individual on the same type of calorie restriction finds carbs to be filling and does not have this issue so they stick with it and do lose weight.
An individual may find when they eat 1300 calories a day, high carb, they lose 1 lb a week, but when they eat 1300 calories a day, low carb, they lose 2 lbs a week.
An individual may find when they eat keto, they don't need to track calories, because they are actually eating a deficit, but they don't even notice it because they feel more full, resulting in dramatic weightloss. Meanwhile, another individual may find when they eat keto, they are not counting calories because they know many others who don't, so they are unknowingly eating too many calories, and they gain weight.
It is so individualized!3 -
I read something somewhere about losing weight through calorie counting having a lower success rate than quitting smoking cold turkey...so for everyone out there losing weight, no matter how, you are doing amazing things!!!1
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I’m not sure how CICO works in my case. I’m trying to GAIN weight on keto! How do I do that?
Where are you struggling? And increase in calories, a good structured lifting program and consistency should help. You can run TKD if you want a potential increase in performance for lifting.
I’m not struggling. I was being facetious for the sake of getting the thread to realize that if keto was superior solely for weight loss, excluding the law of energy balance aka CICO, then how would one gain weight on keto?
I’d have hoped someone else (other than yourself since we’ve had agreeing points of view at length in other threads) would chime in to say “eat more” which would just confound the keto mantra of ignoring calories.
The thing most people seem to be adamant about is that whether they consciously pay attention to calorie intake, or not, is that energy balance is always present.
Yes, it’s physics.
No, we’re not bomb calorimeters.
A calorie both is and isn’t just a calorie.
Context matters.
Food matters.
Calories matter.
And the hierarchy of body composition will always follow:
1. Calories (In)
2. Activity level (Calories out)
In that order.
Smaller and/or less active people will need less calories compared to larger and/or more active people.
To be honest, i knew you were being facetious but i was trying to be nice because i am a known entity outside the group and i didn't want to get kicked out my first day.
And if anyone wants to see a good example of keto bulking, look up Goodie Beats on YouTube.
And if people want to get into the merits for keto and muscle gains/performance, i also love that topic.3 -
just_Tomek wrote: »baconslave wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
Then why do people on low carb lose so much more weight?
I’m not saying you don’t ever need to pay attention to calories, I’m saying there can be more to losing weight than just CICO and it’s frustrating that people jump all over anyone on the boards who dares mention low carb, keto, issues with sugar or fasting as a way to lose weight.
I personally lose weight 2-3x faster on low carb using the same MFP calculated calories so there is more to it than just CICO.
Whatever food eliminating diet helps your lose weight and keep it off, be it keto, paleo, vegan etc. etc, only does so by caloric deficit. Nothing else. CICO applies each and every time.
I, for example, could not do keto. Fat does not keep me satiated and I would easily overeat, if I was not tracking, or walk around hungry all the time. I am a volume eater, I have to fill myself with a lot of low calorie food, read green leafy vegg, to stay full. So for me the "volume eating" diet works, but again it works only because of CICO.
Not that I disagree with this latest post at all, but...
Your first post in the thread was a provocatory quip. This last post was what you should have lead with Just file that away for the future.
I'm curious. What does your carb count look like as a Volume Eater? For everyone's edification.
I just added my food to the database for today, and I don't track anymore unless I have a reason to, only to answer this question. Carbs for the day are at 180g.
Thanks.
So a little too high to be considered "low carb" by some people's metrics. But not high either. I bet the fiber count was significant.
I had multiple reasons for asking that question. One being that some occasionally get the idea that there is such a huge chasm between low-carbing and other WOEs. If this were my higher carb day (which I do because I perform better during strength training with higher calories a tad higher carbs) we're just 30g away from one another. And I bet you get more fiber than me. Other days, I sit at 75-100g. @Sabine_Stroehm is another of our Group Mods, and she's actually slow-carb. I wonder what her totals look like.
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tcunbeliever wrote: »
Everyone has to figure out for themselves what works for them. There is no one stop solution for everyone on the planet because there is way too much variety in the human population.
+1
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baconslave wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »baconslave wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »just_Tomek wrote: »On the main boards any time someone talks about keto/low carb people jump all over them and instantly shout that CICO is the only thing that matters and keto/low carb is just a way for people to stay under their calories...
It annoys me lol. Science can’t actually agree on how people lose weight but the people on the boards are so “positive” it’s the only thing that matters.
But, I know for myself, I lose weight faster on keto. I can consume the same amount of calories on keto as I do on CICO and lose 2-3x the amount of weight. People everywhere are dropping more weight on low carb but still, if you voice that opinion on the main boards you get ganged up on...
Anyone else get frustrated by that? Lol maybe I just need to stay off the main boards... It just annoys me that people can benefit from keto/low carb in a million ways but they get told not to bother cuz it’s all CICO that matters.
So you get mad at science, physics to be specific? Cool.
Nope, I get mad at people like you who can’t believe there’s anything else to it... why do people on low carb or keto lose weight faster if it’s all just CICO? (I eat the same MFP calories and on a high carb diet I lose 1-2 lbs/ week, low carb I lose 2-3...)
I get mad at people who think they're smarter than doctors and scientists who agree that while calories are important there are other factors to consider as well.
I get mad at people who can’t just move by a post they disagree with and instead have to make fun or belittle people who belive something else or who’ve had something else work for them.
Yes. But this is working for you because of CICO. No matter the diet. The laws of physics will still apply.
Then why do people on low carb lose so much more weight?
I’m not saying you don’t ever need to pay attention to calories, I’m saying there can be more to losing weight than just CICO and it’s frustrating that people jump all over anyone on the boards who dares mention low carb, keto, issues with sugar or fasting as a way to lose weight.
I personally lose weight 2-3x faster on low carb using the same MFP calculated calories so there is more to it than just CICO.
Whatever food eliminating diet helps your lose weight and keep it off, be it keto, paleo, vegan etc. etc, only does so by caloric deficit. Nothing else. CICO applies each and every time.
I, for example, could not do keto. Fat does not keep me satiated and I would easily overeat, if I was not tracking, or walk around hungry all the time. I am a volume eater, I have to fill myself with a lot of low calorie food, read green leafy vegg, to stay full. So for me the "volume eating" diet works, but again it works only because of CICO.
Not that I disagree with this latest post at all, but...
Your first post in the thread was a provocatory quip. This last post was what you should have lead with Just file that away for the future.
I'm curious. What does your carb count look like as a Volume Eater? For everyone's edification.
I just added my food to the database for today, and I don't track anymore unless I have a reason to, only to answer this question. Carbs for the day are at 180g.
Thanks.
So a little too high to be considered "low carb" by some people's metrics. But not high either. I bet the fiber count was significant.
I had multiple reasons for asking that question. One being that some occasionally get the idea that there is such a huge chasm between low-carbing and other WOEs. If this were my higher carb day (which I do because I perform better during strength training with higher calories a tad higher carbs) we're just 30g away from one another. And I bet you get more fiber than me. Other days, I sit at 75-100g. @Sabine_Stroehm is another of our Group Mods, and she's actually slow-carb. I wonder what her totals look like.
Slow carb REPRESENT! Most days are between 75-125, if I'm guesstimating right. The "higher" carb foods are things like sweet potatoes, lima beans, baby peas. Been doing this since about 2002, ish. Just remember it was not long after 9/11.3 -
I’m sure cico has something to do with everyone’s weight loss but for me personally when I follow a 1200-1500 calorie diet with low fat low caloric dense foods I only lost about 8 pounds total over 9 months but as soon as I remove all grains and sugar from my diet that’s when I start losing weight. Why is that? I’m not eating any less calories than before. I’m not exercising any more. I can honestly say I am much more satiated and have almost zero food cravings. I physically and mentally feel better... There is more to it than just calories in calories out. I don’t get irritated with anyone for praising a certain woe but it is very interesting how one reacts to certain diets.6
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Pre-made stuff is frequently more actual calories than stated on the package too, so that's never good when you are trying to track!3
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just_Tomek wrote: »herblovinmom wrote: »I’m sure cico has something to do with everyone’s weight loss but for me personally when I follow a 1200-1500 calorie diet with low fat low caloric dense foods I only lost about 8 pounds total over 9 months but as soon as I remove all grains and sugar from my diet that’s when I start losing weight. Why is that? I’m not eating any less calories than before. I’m not exercising any more. I can honestly say I am much more satiated and have almost zero food cravings. I physically and mentally feel better... There is more to it than just calories in calories out. I don’t get irritated with anyone for praising a certain woe but it is very interesting how one reacts to certain diets.
Because of tracking. Thats why. Easier to track when you dont eat pre-made, ready to eat food.
For weight loss, whether you would eat 1200cal in butter or 1200cal in bread, the weight loss will be the same.... and I am not talking overall nutrition, both horrible ideas btw.
No where in that comment did she say she used prepackaged meals. This is the kind of flippant and assumption making posts that people are talking about when they talk about 'getting mad at CICO' people.
There are lots of people out there who have found that WHAT they eat matters. That all calories are not the same for them when it comes to weightloss or health. Many who have PCOS, or IR, or a metabolic disorder and some type 2 diabetics to name a few. The problem with the 'aLl CaLoRiEs ArE tHe SaMe' argument is some people don't know they have these issues until they do try to lose weight and find they cant lose weight. Until they change their diet.
I have found many people who will echo what I have seen in my own life. But I can only give you what I lived thru. Over 5 years ago, I was trying to lose weight. I hardcore tracked everything I ate. I wouldn't even lick a spoon because I didn't know how to count that. I exercised everyday and tracked that with gps and a step counter. I read thru every post I could find on weightloss on the general boards here. In 8 months, I lost 8lbs and according to MFP I was netting 800 calories a day. I was miserable, and hangry, my hair was falling out and I cried everyday because I just couldn't lose weight. The general boards here were full of people like you, telling everyone we must be wrong, we were doing things wrong, we just had to track better, we were lazy, we were lying when we said we were doing things correctly, that it doesn't matter what or when we eat. It was extremely disheartening and discouraging and I can see why lots of people who see those CICO iS EvErYtHiNg posts quit trying.
My husband finally convinced me to go to the doctor to find out why I wasn't losing weight on such little calories. Turns out my PCOS caused IR. I had no idea. Doctors don't randomly test for IR unless there is a problem with weightloss. The doctor told me to try a LCHF diet, cut out most carbs and all sugar and see how it went. I did. I tracked just as strict as before, exercised just like before, just ate different foods. I lost 30lbs in 4 months.
There is research out there showing that what we eat can be as important as how much we eat when it comes to weightloss, especially for those with some of the health issues I mentioned. Telling people that tracking CICO is all that matters across the board, for everyone, isn't helpful, or accurate. The CO part of the equation can be different for different people. It is sad to see how some people seem so single minded and driven to bully others about how they can lose weight, without know anything about their health.
Nothing I saw will change some people's minds. But maybe someone will see this and realize that maybe it isnt all in their head. That what they eat matters to their bodies, and that it is ok to do what works for you. There are others out here doing the best we can with what our bodies give us.
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just_Tomek wrote: »herblovinmom wrote: »I’m sure cico has something to do with everyone’s weight loss but for me personally when I follow a 1200-1500 calorie diet with low fat low caloric dense foods I only lost about 8 pounds total over 9 months but as soon as I remove all grains and sugar from my diet that’s when I start losing weight. Why is that? I’m not eating any less calories than before. I’m not exercising any more. I can honestly say I am much more satiated and have almost zero food cravings. I physically and mentally feel better... There is more to it than just calories in calories out. I don’t get irritated with anyone for praising a certain woe but it is very interesting how one reacts to certain diets.
Because of tracking. Thats why. Easier to track when you dont eat pre-made, ready to eat food.
For weight loss, whether you would eat 1200cal in butter or 1200cal in bread, the weight loss will be the same.... and I am not talking overall nutrition, both horrible ideas btw.
No where in that comment did she say she used prepackaged meals. This is the kind of flippant and assumption making posts that people are talking about when they talk about 'getting mad at CICO' people.
There are lots of people out there who have found that WHAT they eat matters. That all calories are not the same for them when it comes to weightloss or health. Many who have PCOS, or IR, or a metabolic disorder and some type 2 diabetics to name a few. The problem with the 'aLl CaLoRiEs ArE tHe SaMe' argument is some people don't know they have these issues until they do try to lose weight and find they cant lose weight. Until they change their diet.
I have found many people who will echo what I have seen in my own life. But I can only give you what I lived thru. Over 5 years ago, I was trying to lose weight. I hardcore tracked everything I ate. I wouldn't even lick a spoon because I didn't know how to count that. I exercised everyday and tracked that with gps and a step counter. I read thru every post I could find on weightloss on the general boards here. In 8 months, I lost 8lbs and according to MFP I was netting 800 calories a day. I was miserable, and hangry, my hair was falling out and I cried everyday because I just couldn't lose weight. The general boards here were full of people like you, telling everyone we must be wrong, we were doing things wrong, we just had to track better, we were lazy, we were lying when we said we were doing things correctly, that it doesn't matter what or when we eat. It was extremely disheartening and discouraging and I can see why lots of people who see those CICO iS EvErYtHiNg posts quit trying.
My husband finally convinced me to go to the doctor to find out why I wasn't losing weight on such little calories. Turns out my PCOS caused IR. I had no idea. Doctors don't randomly test for IR unless there is a problem with weightloss. The doctor told me to try a LCHF diet, cut out most carbs and all sugar and see how it went. I did. I tracked just as strict as before, exercised just like before, just ate different foods. I lost 30lbs in 4 months.
There is research out there showing that what we eat can be as important as how much we eat when it comes to weightloss, especially for those with some of the health issues I mentioned. Telling people that tracking CICO is all that matters across the board, for everyone, isn't helpful, or accurate. The CO part of the equation can be different for different people. It is sad to see how some people seem so single minded and driven to bully others about how they can lose weight, without know anything about their health.
Nothing I saw will change some people's minds. But maybe someone will see this and realize that maybe it isnt all in their head. That what they eat matters to their bodies, and that it is ok to do what works for you. There are others out here doing the best we can with what our bodies give us.
I to also have an auto immune disorder. It seems as though the removal of sugar is helpful. Do you mind me asking what IR is?
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This discussion has been closed.