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Do you ever get mad at the CICO people?

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  • 2t9nty
    2t9nty Posts: 1,631 Member
    herblovinmom wrote: »

    I to also have an auto immune disorder. It seems as though the removal of sugar is helpful. Do you mind me asking what IR is?

    Insulin Resistance
  • Alliwan
    Alliwan Posts: 1,245 Member
    edited November 2019
    Insulin Resistance. It is like pre pre diabetes, sort of. But it is a separate test and people with IR often have normal blood sugars. I also have an auto immune disorder and cutting carbs has helped me also with the inflammation.
  • cinnygirl38
    cinnygirl38 Posts: 42 Member
    Alliwan wrote: »
    just_Tomek wrote: »
    herblovinmom wrote: »
    I’m sure cico has something to do with everyone’s weight loss but for me personally when I follow a 1200-1500 calorie diet with low fat low caloric dense foods I only lost about 8 pounds total over 9 months but as soon as I remove all grains and sugar from my diet that’s when I start losing weight. Why is that? I’m not eating any less calories than before. I’m not exercising any more. I can honestly say I am much more satiated and have almost zero food cravings. I physically and mentally feel better... There is more to it than just calories in calories out. I don’t get irritated with anyone for praising a certain woe but it is very interesting how one reacts to certain diets.

    Because of tracking. Thats why. Easier to track when you dont eat pre-made, ready to eat food.
    For weight loss, whether you would eat 1200cal in butter or 1200cal in bread, the weight loss will be the same.... and I am not talking overall nutrition, both horrible ideas btw.

    No where in that comment did she say she used prepackaged meals. This is the kind of flippant and assumption making posts that people are talking about when they talk about 'getting mad at CICO' people.

    There are lots of people out there who have found that WHAT they eat matters. That all calories are not the same for them when it comes to weightloss or health. Many who have PCOS, or IR, or a metabolic disorder and some type 2 diabetics to name a few. The problem with the 'aLl CaLoRiEs ArE tHe SaMe' argument is some people don't know they have these issues until they do try to lose weight and find they cant lose weight. Until they change their diet.

    I have found many people who will echo what I have seen in my own life. But I can only give you what I lived thru. Over 5 years ago, I was trying to lose weight. I hardcore tracked everything I ate. I wouldn't even lick a spoon because I didn't know how to count that. I exercised everyday and tracked that with gps and a step counter. I read thru every post I could find on weightloss on the general boards here. In 8 months, I lost 8lbs and according to MFP I was netting 800 calories a day. I was miserable, and hangry, my hair was falling out and I cried everyday because I just couldn't lose weight. The general boards here were full of people like you, telling everyone we must be wrong, we were doing things wrong, we just had to track better, we were lazy, we were lying when we said we were doing things correctly, that it doesn't matter what or when we eat. It was extremely disheartening and discouraging and I can see why lots of people who see those CICO iS EvErYtHiNg posts quit trying.

    My husband finally convinced me to go to the doctor to find out why I wasn't losing weight on such little calories. Turns out my PCOS caused IR. I had no idea. Doctors don't randomly test for IR unless there is a problem with weightloss. The doctor told me to try a LCHF diet, cut out most carbs and all sugar and see how it went. I did. I tracked just as strict as before, exercised just like before, just ate different foods. I lost 30lbs in 4 months.

    There is research out there showing that what we eat can be as important as how much we eat when it comes to weightloss, especially for those with some of the health issues I mentioned. Telling people that tracking CICO is all that matters across the board, for everyone, isn't helpful, or accurate. The CO part of the equation can be different for different people. It is sad to see how some people seem so single minded and driven to bully others about how they can lose weight, without know anything about their health.

    Nothing I saw will change some people's minds. But maybe someone will see this and realize that maybe it isnt all in their head. That what they eat matters to their bodies, and that it is ok to do what works for you. There are others out here doing the best we can with what our bodies give us.

    What research is there showing what and when we eat are important. Asking b/c I want to know!
  • Alliwan
    Alliwan Posts: 1,245 Member
    edited November 2019
    Most of my info comes from a PCOS point of view. Again, I have no idea how much of this applies to 'normal' people. But there are studies like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1334192/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3752890/ that show keto/lchf is a benefit to pcos and IR. There are on going studies like https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03792282 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1334192/.

    PCOS is a hormone imbalance. Insulin is a hormone. When you get your insulin under control, the PCOS symptoms and weightloss seem to follow. That is why IF or time sensitive eating seems to help PCOS also, as it stabilizes your insulin for longer periods.

    Either on this board or the PCOS boards there are youtube videos of doctors who specialize in PCOS and IR who are finding huge success with their patients on keto/LCHF and/or IF. Not just weightloss, altho they find their patients lose more weight that way, but also in fertility and less PCOS symptoms.

    So again, I come at this from a PCOS/IR point of view. I do not pretend to know if all or any of this affects a 'normal' person.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    gemiller87 wrote: »
    I started my journey this year on a very strict Keto style diet. I've since re-introduced carbs on a more balanced macro balance. I can speak for myself and say I lost from 350lbs last fall/winter and 335 in March to 237 today and low carb balance played a role. Is the end result involving calorie in/out, sure it is BUT I attribute a lot of success to changing the carb levels and later moving to a proper macro balance which in turn is still notably lower carbs than the average persons diet.

    Do I get mad at the CICO folks? Nope. They can starve themselves while I continue to lose weight consistently and successfully like i've been all year utilizing a mix of lower carb and IF (which is hated just as much by that group). The CICO folks would only accept double blind studies involving all humans of identical characteristics to believe any of it. I simply don't care. If it works for me it works, if it doesn't i'd have moved on. Cheers y'all!

    First, congrats on your success. But to point out an often perpetuated fallacy, "CICO people" aren't starving themselves if they are doing it right. I was never starving on a low fat/high carb diet and that is how I lost my first 50 lbs and kept it off for almost a decade. It's generally people who believe they have to go on a 1200 calorie diet for no reason that have that reaction.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    edited November 2019
    gemiller87 wrote: »
    I started my journey this year on a very strict Keto style diet. I've since re-introduced carbs on a more balanced macro balance. I can speak for myself and say I lost from 350lbs last fall/winter and 335 in March to 237 today and low carb balance played a role. Is the end result involving calorie in/out, sure it is BUT I attribute a lot of success to changing the carb levels and later moving to a proper macro balance which in turn is still notably lower carbs than the average persons diet.

    Do I get mad at the CICO folks? Nope. They can starve themselves while I continue to lose weight consistently and successfully like i've been all year utilizing a mix of lower carb and IF (which is hated just as much by that group). The CICO folks would only accept double blind studies involving all humans of identical characteristics to believe any of it. I simply don't care. If it works for me it works, if it doesn't i'd have moved on. Cheers y'all!

    Wow.

    Aren't you on a really low calorie plan? I thought I read in the forums that you eat low cal.

    I think maybe there is a misunderstanding as to what CICO really is. It's simply a math equation. How you implement it doesn't change it. Calorie counting, IF and Low Carb are tools to help attain a favorable CICO.


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  • gemiller87
    gemiller87 Posts: 135 Member
    edited November 2019
    cmriverside wrote: »
    gemiller87 wrote: »
    I started my journey this year on a very strict Keto style diet. I've since re-introduced carbs on a more balanced macro balance. I can speak for myself and say I lost from 350lbs last fall/winter and 335 in March to 237 today and low carb balance played a role. Is the end result involving calorie in/out, sure it is BUT I attribute a lot of success to changing the carb levels and later moving to a proper macro balance which in turn is still notably lower carbs than the average persons diet.

    Do I get mad at the CICO folks? Nope. They can starve themselves while I continue to lose weight consistently and successfully like i've been all year utilizing a mix of lower carb and IF (which is hated just as much by that group). The CICO folks would only accept double blind studies involving all humans of identical characteristics to believe any of it. I simply don't care. If it works for me it works, if it doesn't i'd have moved on. Cheers y'all!

    Wow.

    Aren't you on a really low calorie plan? I thought I read that in the forums that you eat low cal.

    I think maybe there is a misunderstanding as to what CICO really is. It's simply a math equation. How you implement it doesn't change it. Calorie counting, IF and Low Carb are methods of attaining a favorable CICO.
    841222-144dd652b005bcda5c9ae73ab6eea039.png




    Really low cal? Not really in my opinion. Its basically TDEE - 2lbs and try to stand in a deficit on this number (try not to go over at all and rarely do) a week from a calorie standpoint for someone who was over 100 lbs overweight and in the high side of the obese scale. To your defense I don't really eat in for workouts because its pretty much all logged as strength work except for roller skating once every other week or so for 3 hours. Been averaging 3-5 lbs a week. Last week I hit a little stumble and only lost 2.5ish lbs with a big water weight spike but I "think" that has to do with a major change with my new to me workout routine. Mathematically however I shouldn't be losing 3-5 a week consistently (i'm sure there's weeks where it is true to calorie count though) based on my calorie intake and the fact I think I still under estimate calorie input sometime because i'm not super good about scaling food. The other argument I suppose could be that TDEE simply isn't right for me. This past week was the first time in a while I lost less than 3 lbs on the above data.

    I initially did Keto strictly because I had a very bad sugar problem and at 350ish I was showing pre-diabetic symptoms and my mother is to the point of needing multiple shots a day. I monitored my blood glucose closely and seen a nice shift between keto and IF (i know IF doesn't have much value beyond CICO except I did see value in blood glucose balance). Do I need IF now for blood glucose? I don't think so but it worked then and I haven't been to a Dr. since a pilots license physical last year which is one of the "get your *kitten* in gear" moments I had in terms of my health. It was the first time I was at a Dr. in probably a decade and I got all the "your blood pressure is borderline, blood work isn't wonderful, you're way overweight, blah blah blah" kinda responses. Also in the last couple years I had my vision go from perfect to 1.15 prescription which my eye Dr and myself partially attribute to the sugar/pre diabetic symptoms. It's hard to say if the physically better feeling from keto came from the diet itself or the change in my health that came with the sugar's starting to balance out. I can't speak to that obviously. But I do believe a LOT of overweight folks have similar problems that Keto balances and sometimes people may mis attribute the reasoning for. But regardless of reasoning if it works for someone who cares the reason in the end if they get healthier?

    Now I'm probably not low carb by this particular groups metrics anymore but I am shifted to a protein heavy and carb last dynamic. I've been doing Built Bars for breakfast and a small lunch with another Built Bar to also promote the protein. I don't think it would be possible for me to hit my protein macro without protein supplement .8-1g a lb is a lot of protein at 225-235 lbs.

    Do I think low carb is the answer to weight loss, no. But do I think it plays more of a role than most CICO folks stance? Yes, I think it may. Intermittent fasting however I don't believe plays any other role beyond blood glucose and a mentality shift imho. Is any of this based on science? Not really. Is it based on losing 100+ lbs in less than a year and how I physically felt during various stages of the process? Yep. In the past before kids I had went from 290 to 245ish from purely cardio (running). I quickly gained that back though without a shift in anything else and I felt like crap the whole process. I gained that back with kids and the respective reduced activity levels as well as some mental health stuff. I felt way better this whole year losing drastically more weight at a faster pace utilizing some methods that at one point heavily included a low carb diet.

    EDIT: Also I will be starting a HIIT program here shortly also which will probably be more of a calorie burn of anything else i've been doing. I may or may not eat back in for this, but if the calories are available and i'm hungry I won't have a problem doing so LOL!

    The sum of my above post is probably more simply worded as "healthy macros for most people is naturally notably low carb compared to a normal diet" and healthy macros produce good results.
  • maureenkhilde
    maureenkhilde Posts: 849 Member
    I think there is a fine line that is getting lost in all of this. Because I see it over and over again.

    I am a type 2 diabetic, we all can agree this is a chronic medical condition. So I will call it a health condition. I read above some people have PCOS, others IR, and some other ones as well. These are health conditions. Often times when people have health conditions and decide to lose weight. Certain types of diets prove to be more successful for them.

    However it does not change the basic fact which is in order to drop pounds. We need to burn off more calories than what we are taking in. So we need to have a calorie deficit.

    Then there is also the plain basic truth, in order to for any food plan to work, it has to be one, you can live with day in, day out. One that you are satisfied with. You enjoy the foods, feel satisfied with. So many people have decided that just counting calories did not work for them. And swithched to other food plans.

    It has taken me a long time to see it this way. That people can lose weight, but do it and still be on a fairly unhealthy food plan. Which may be why so many people have the tendency to regain weight. They ate in a deficit plan, but kept so many treats in the plan. By the way I see that answer tons in the CICO. But I also see people in the CICO plan who lost massive amounts of weight and have kept off for years. I think the same exact process happens with people who follow some other plan than a strict CICO.

    I admit I have a big sweet tooth, but now I use alternate flours, alternate sugars. And keep losing weight, and to me the big payoff is I am keeping my blood sugars under control for my diabetes. And the key to all of this is staying under 55 carbs per day. Yes CICO factors in totally agree. But so does the LC to control my diabetes. Weight loss and Health should go hand and hand.
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