Strength Training while LC

MelodiousMermaid

I've looked briefly through the threads and wasn't finding this, so if there's a resource/thread already out there, please link me to it.

I am currently running on about 50-60g carb (not sure of net, don't track)/25-30g fat/150g+ (aim for 155-160) protein in an average day.

As I've continued progressing in StrongLifts 5x5 (been doing the program for a bit more than a month currently), I have found that I feel like I'm "out of gas" more often than not when I lift. I am still progressing (a few failures here or there, but I've been able to keep going over the long-run). Outside of that, I'm generally operating fine. I lift M-W-F or M-Th-Sa depending on the week's scheduling needs, and the only other exercise I do is some LISS walking (fastest is 3 mph, I think I've been trending around 2.7 or so lately). I'm generally very sedentary outside of purposeful walking/lifting.

Are any of you regular heavy lifters? Is this just a regular day at the gym due to little carbs, or is there something else that I might do/check on? I do supplement electrolytes and calcium, and have anywhere from 8-12 cups of water a day.

If it matters, I'm a 5' 1" female, current weight 209.9 lbs.

Thank you for any help you can provide!

MelodiousMermaid

Also of somewhat relevance to the "out of gas" feeling: I do struggle with mental health issues, including PMDD and depression. I think I have gotten to the point where I can differentiate the types of "out of gas" and believe I am still having issues outside of the hormonal/MH factors.

tcunbeliever

YES!

This is pretty normal, I think. If you are doing 50-60 g carbs/day and lifting, you are more keto level than just low carb level because of the increased demand of lifting.

So, my understanding is that the adaptation period can take up to 6 months for your body to physically generate the mitochondria necessary to meet all of your energy needs. For me, when I went from low carb to keto it was about 3 weeks for my lifts to really recover. When I started training fasted, it was the same, about 3 weeks, and then they did more than recover, they zoomed way ahead of my usual progress rate.

I see several possible options here, not sure which fits better for your individual needs...

Option 1 - You didn't say how long you were doing this, so first, maybe just give it some more time for your body to get into the groove and grow those mitochondria.

Option 2 - Try fasted training to speed up the adaptation. The total lack of circulating carbs will increase the need for ketone mitochondria and in theory will speed up the production of those and thus shorten adaptation time...in theory, I don't think this is well tested, but there's some anecdotal evidence in circulation.

Option 3 - Try a Leangains style carb/calorie cycling, where you eat more carbs on lifting days, and keep your carbs low on non-lifting days. The increase in carbs also increases calories, so you need to scale back your calorie intake on non-lifting days to accommodate the same overall weekly deficit...or, you can just carb cycle, and reduce fat to offset the increase in carbs.

Option 4 - Try to increase salt, this sometimes helps me when I'm getting that out of gas feeling, but it might also depend on how much sodium you are already supplementing, I tend to forget to take mine so I will totally stop in the middle of a workout and take my salt if I start to feel like I need it.

Would love to know what you try and how it work, or doesn't...I'm always on the hunt for new ideas!

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you for your response, @tcunbeliever !

I've only been lifting (well, did it in the past, but have had a loooooong break) for about 5 weeks now. Did/do you do a deficit/diet break schedule ever in the past? If so, would you recommend staying LC/keto for a diet break period for someone who hasn't adapted?

I plan to have more carbs in my life in the longer term (though not sure what level -- might try 100 as I get closer to maintenance), but the adaptation sounds like something I'd be curious to try. For fasted training, does this mean just nothing within the last 3-4 hours, or would I need to work out first thing in the morning?

I'm currently aiming for 3,500 mg of sodium intake per day. What are your thoughts on that?

tcunbeliever

I think for fasted it's nothing in 12 hours, but I've never really understood that because any liver stored glucose is gone after about 5 hours, so I'm not sure where the 12 came from???

I usually do diet breaks...sometimes 2 weeks break after 4 weeks deficit...currently I'm running more of a month break after 2 months deficit...I don't usually alter my actual goals to be higher carb, but I definitely don't fret about going over some in carbs either...though lately I have been doing that even on the deficit and not really worrying about it as long as protein is up and calories are not over.

I did keto for 2 years for migraine control and I'm trying to transition to more low carb and figure out where that carb level is that I still don't have migraines, but also still progress with my muscle gains...I definitely had a much harder time putting on muscle with keto than with low carb.

I think the recommended sodium for low carb is 5,000 mg minimum.

MelodiousMermaid

[off-topic] And here I come at the end of the day to check the thread, and the reply I wrote a few hours ago on my phone didn't post. Grr. [/off-topic]

Thank you for your fast responses, tcunbeliever. Yeah, I never understood fasting in general. To be fair though, I haven't tried to read up on it either.

I really appreciate you sharing a piece of your story with the migraines. I have a friend who suffers very regularly, and I'll have to check if she's tried this, as I know she's tried several things to no avail so far.

Sounds like I'll be focusing more on rich meats and sauces over my diet break, rather than the carb fest I'd been planning. I plan to break over Christmas, as there are usually so many yummy things it'd be nice to have the calories available to enjoy in moderation. Ah well, one year won't be the end of the world, I suppose. I really do miss my taters, rice, and beans though, and look forward to seeing more of them when I get to "phase 3" of my plan (the slow loss at the beginning of the healthy range, where I intend to play with different foods/levels of carbs). I'd rather try for this adaptation, so that I know how my body works with it. A small price to pay.

I hesitate to get into carb cycling and such at this point, as I'm trying to run a tighter game while obese, then loosening up a bit as I get closer to a healthy BF %. I'm a bit wary of reintroducing some foods anyway (most of which are carb-based), TBH, as my hunger cues don't work and I can also tend toward overeating and binging too easily. That's something I'm working on over time as well. Depending on how the adaptation and my level experiments go, I may switch out to the "option 3" setup.

To be safe, I double-checked the introductory info, and it indicated 3k-5k sodium for most people, with higher at the beginning, and generally a bit less as people adapt to the diet. I don't know if I'm adapted to the diet at all (I might be? It's been about 2 months, with only a couple blips earlier on), but I've not had much going on as far as new/worsening symptoms of sodium deficiency, other than the "running on empty" at workouts. I might go ahead and add a bit more salt to my workout protein drink to see if that helps. It's a good idea, and I hadn't thought of it since I'd been cruising along before starting training, running within normal parameters.

Thanks again!

psuLemon

While i know some would suggest that gains come back, in my experience it will never have the potential as with carbs. Carbs are like rocket fuel.

Can you get adapted? Certainly. But it will take time. Its also possible that SL, is not ideal for you. It increases load fairly quick. Combine it with a deficit and low carb, recovery can be difficult. Its possible that you would respond differently with a program that has better load management or less frequency by body part. I know i get recovery issues with full body workouts. I do much better management with an PHUL or PHAT style training program.

Outside the above recommendations, the one anecdotal thing i have seen is running a TKD. During this, you would consume 30g of pure glucose 30-60 minutes prior to exercise. This would support glycogen replenishment or immediate energy needs.

MelodiousMermaid

Interesting, thank you for the insight and feedback, psuLemon.

I might see how the next week or two goes with the increased sodium to see if electrolytes were or were not part of the issue, and chew on the cycling/glucose supplementation thought in the meantime.

I do want to continue to maintain what strength I have, and ideally would like to gain some strength over time. The things I like most about SL 5x5 are the shorter time commitment (I'm averaging about 45-55 minutes to go through the routine depending on which day it is, and 3x/week), less lifts to learn (from what little comparison I've done), and the "little woman lifts big heavy things" aspect. I haven't read up on PHUL or PHAT, but will see if I can round up some info and go through it to compare (I'd imagine it's on the "which lifting program" thread, so I'll start there).

I estimate it's going to be about 6 months more before I start playing around much with carb macros and timing/cycling, as I'm really looking to get out of obesity as my first primary focus before moving on to other things. However, I don't want to ignore strength until then either, which is what brought me to SL. I guess this will be an experiment over time.

psuLemon

https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1

This thread can help.

taylok23

I started LCHF a few years ago and began working out fasted, first thing in the morning. There were days I felt gassed but that went away after a few weeks. I agree with making sure you get enough sodium. I had dizzy spells until I got this worked out. I’ve done the new rules for lifting program and am currently trying thinner, leaner, stronger. I have upped my carbs over the last year and have put on 10 pounds but I believe this to be mainly muscle as I’ve maintained my clothing size. Good luck!

caramw

I've done low carb for several years. Started on Atkins in 2003 to lose baby weight as nothing else worked, lost 40lbs. Went off in 2015 and gained 30 lbs. Am now KETO (since 2018). I dropped 20lbs quickly and am struggling with the last ten, but I now train 6 days a week (two days CrossFit, three days on water Outrigger or Dragon Boat training, one day paddle erg training). My weight isn't changing but my shape sure is (for the better!), and my migraines are gone.

For the last month I've been struggling with light headedness. It happened during a 2k on water time trial I had earlier this month, it wrecked my time, it's made me rethink my hydration and sodium intake. I use VEGA Sport hydrator in my water when working out, but I think I may need to use it in my water when not working out as well.

Keep us posted on your progress Mermaid!

MelodiousMermaid

So, with a bit more sodium, I did OK on Monday, but yesterday I literally ran out of gas. Could not deadlift more than a few inches off the floor one time (whereas I did a full 1x5 at 10 pounds lighter the prior DL run). I am guessing I found my current max, as electrolytes really should not have been an issue at that point.

I really enjoy SL and wish to continue it, so I think I might give the glucose a try. My mother-in-law is a type 1 diabetic, so it's easy to come by for a trial. I'm kinda bummed to give up another 120 kcal, but if the results speak for themselves, I'll give it a go and keep it or try the carb cycling. I suppose that kinda makes more sense in the long-run, as I intend to let some more carbs back into the diet closer to maintenance.

Is lean gains the primary information source I'd want to look at to learn more about carb cycling, or do any of you have other recommendations?

tcunbeliever

Leangains is carb and calorie cycling...there are some versions that just carb cycle and leave calories stable by reducing fat on high carb days...

This is my favorite leangains calculator:
https://x-gains.com/MacroCalculator

Also, google TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) as that's a common more generic term for basically the same kind of carb cycling.

psuLemon

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

So, with a bit more sodium, I did OK on Monday, but yesterday I literally ran out of gas. Could not deadlift more than a few inches off the floor one time (whereas I did a full 1x5 at 10 pounds lighter the prior DL run). I am guessing I found my current max, as electrolytes really should not have been an issue at that point.

I really enjoy SL and wish to continue it, so I think I might give the glucose a try. My mother-in-law is a type 1 diabetic, so it's easy to come by for a trial. I'm kinda bummed to give up another 120 kcal, but if the results speak for themselves, I'll give it a go and keep it or try the carb cycling. I suppose that kinda makes more sense in the long-run, as I intend to let some more carbs back into the diet closer to maintenance.

Is lean gains the primary information source I'd want to look at to learn more about carb cycling, or do any of you have other recommendations?

Did you have any specific questions? Or are you more talking general browsing

MelodiousMermaid

More general knowledge/browsing.

I decided to implement the glucose tabs recommendation for now (I realized that I'd forgotten/overlooked LM's recommendations regarding this as the chapter read as directed to the more athletic types, and I'm not that), and started at 12g with my workout today (it did help). However, I do think I should learn more and see if Leangains/carb cycling is something that would be a practical match for me in a long-term WOE sense, as I may try to do recomp and/or bulk/cut cycles down the road.

BTW, @psuLemon , I'm trundling through the "cutting after a bulk" thread and am about halfway through. I'd originally written off UD2, as it sounded like a lot more work/trouble than I wanted to deal with (especially with how long this initial cut will take me), but am looking forward to learning more about your experiences with it as I continue. I know I will likely need to get further yet away from the RFL setup (my starting point in planning my overall WOE as of now, though I add stuff as needed to it) as I get closer to category 1. Side note -- I'm in awe of your mad Excel skills. Seriously though -- my favorite grad school class was quantitative analysis. I know I couldn't hold a candle to your expertise!

psuLemon

MelodiousMermaid wrote: »

More general knowledge/browsing.

I decided to implement the glucose tabs recommendation for now (I realized that I'd forgotten/overlooked LM's recommendations regarding this as the chapter read as directed to the more athletic types, and I'm not that), and started at 12g with my workout today (it did help). However, I do think I should learn more and see if Leangains/carb cycling is something that would be a practical match for me in a long-term WOE sense, as I may try to do recomp and/or bulk/cut cycles down the road.

BTW, @psuLemon , I'm trundling through the "cutting after a bulk" thread and am about halfway through. I'd originally written off UD2, as it sounded like a lot more work/trouble than I wanted to deal with (especially with how long this initial cut will take me), but am looking forward to learning more about your experiences with it as I continue. I know I will likely need to get further yet away from the RFL setup (my starting point in planning my overall WOE as of now, though I add stuff as needed to it) as I get closer to category 1. Side note -- I'm in awe of your mad Excel skills. Seriously though -- my favorite grad school class was quantitative analysis. I know I couldn't hold a candle to your expertise!

Of all the LM programs, UD2 was definitely my favorite but it did become a bit cumbersome to hit the numbers on the high carb day (I have to hit 400g). I also believe I was too "overweight" to get the benefits from a UD2 program. The one thing LM does advocate for is KISS. RFL was too bland and very difficult for me to maintain. I don't think it's a very good way to diet. I much prefer ketogenic over that. Given hormonal issues, and how fats regulate them, it wouldn't be ideal to go with very low amounts of fats.

You can do TKD, but the amount of glucose should be closer to 25-30g prior lifting. It does take away from your total carb count which sucks if you are incorporating veggies into your diet or if you are have any kind of insulin issues.

Can we take a step back and ask a few more questions? How long have you been lifting? Have you had anyone check your form? There is a possibility that your form is causing your issues, or it's possible that you should start with a more simple program prior to SL (even though you like it).

Also, are you following the formal RFL diet?

MelodiousMermaid

I lifted for about 6 months in 1999, off and on in short spurts in intervening years, started again in 2017 into the first part of 2018, then a break until about 5-6 weeks ago. No structured program in HS, isolation machines for the in-between stuff, SL 5x5 plus a bit of accessory work in 2017-8, so far just SL on this run, as I want to dedicate a bit more time to walking, plus powerlifting is more what trips my trigger so to speak (I think my workout compliance in the past primarily failed due to boredom when it wasn't a budgetary or other issue).

I have a trainer working with me and my family on form. I still run through things with her to be sure I'm recalling everything, but generally my primary issue is letting the bar get away from me on DLs and I sometimes tilt my head back by looking in the mirrors in squats, DLs, and barbell rows. After I had my failure last week, we talked about what I was doing nutrition-wise and she doesn't think that the RFL is going to support my work, which is why I decided to take the glucose approach.

Re: diet: Short answer: Kind of, yes.

Some days it's on par with RFL, others not as much. I don't limit myself on condiments and such (other than to control overall quantity so as not to cause a calorie squeeze), and when I have decent kitchen facility availability, I like to have potatoes and sweet potatoes, on occasion (though small ones to keep overall carbs and calories lower, like 50g to 125g). A bit of honey here or there, occasionally a fattier meat or full-fat cheese, egg yolks when I feel like throwing them into the mix... Trying to keep the calorie budget where I want it does find me pretty close to compliant with RFL, with macro ranges as noted above. Being 5'1" and female, I unfortunately don't have the latitude with more calories that a lot of others seem to have (though I know I can decrease the deficit, I find myself loathe to do so until cat2).

Right now, I think I'm pretty close to completely compliant, food-wise. Stuff going on in my personal life has me scraping for simple options and my diet has suffered for it in terms of variety, but keeping the proteins high and other macros low regardless.

I always supplement fish oils, as I understand they're very important.

I will try 28g next time I lift on the glucose to see where that has me land with the workout (the tablets I got have 4g a piece). I need to reconcile myself with a small calorie loss for the good of a proper workout. I've also been doing SL 3x/week, which my trainer recommends, even though LM recommended 2x/week strength work. That might be a contributing factor as well. So many variables. The LISS work that I'm doing on top of it (slow walking and light rowing) probably doesn't help either, but I try to manage the timing to minimize the issue (e.g. most LISS other than warm-up after the workout, and working out multiple times per day to feel more rested).

psuLemon

Ok, thanks for the information. It provides a much better foundation for what I would recommend. And feel free to take or leave this advise. It is what I would recommend to the people I train/work with.

I would NOT recommend starting with RFL, especially while beginning to use SL. Given the need for energy, which mainly can only come from fats or carbs, it not going to be sufficient to run a program like SL which is going to stress your CNS heavily. Low carb/keto alone is already a going to be a handicap when it comes to lifting. So no need to complicate it when running RFL.

Given LM, he doesn't recommend much exercise while running RFL due to this fact. And unless you are a serious and very experienced dieter who needs to drop a ton of weight quickly (i.e., for an event or show), then it's not a diet that one should run. If anything, I would more recommended starting off with Keto diet while potentially running IF on top of that since you have a low calorie budget (I have my wife run two meals a day for the same reason). And when I speak of Keto, LM's very is more than sufficient. If you haven't read that book, there are a few big takeaways. First, keep carbs below 50g total and get adequate protein (for you that would be 120g probably). And that allow fats to fall out. For me, fats are never a concern while following keto. Too often, I see newbies fat bombing which often leads to stalls from over consumption of calories.

So overall, I would recommend running a basic modified Keto diet, even over a TKD. Getting the basics down before adding more variables is a more ideal approach in my experience. If you run into some struggles at that point, I would try adding MCTs or carbs around your workout at that point. I think you would be surprised that the fats would provide more energy during exercise (at least more as compared to what you have currently). Combine that with sufficient sodium, magnesium and potassium, I suspect you will see much better progress with SL.

If that doesn't work, I would want to take a step back to evaluate SL and potentially move you to another program. At that point, i could evaluate your goals, but we don't have to go there yet.

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you for your advice, @psuLemon . I know you're a "vet" on the boards with a fair bit of experience/knowledge, and will consider it very seriously.

At some point in the next few months, I was considering a bump up in calories through a series of stair-steps to increase protein, as I know higher protein was on the distant horizon with RFL (over 200g based on LM's 2.0 multiplier for cat 1 if I'd decide to give that a try), since RFL's been my "planning starting point." Perhaps I will look further into how that could change if I added additional fats and/or carbs to the diet, perhaps giving in to a small-ish deficit when I reach what would be considered category 2. I do not have Lyle's keto book. Might have to get that for myself for Christmas.

120g of protein just seems so small to me now. I know in general, InBody and similar body fat measurements are discredited on the forums due to their propensity for easily shifting readings based on various factors. I have not seen anything on Fit3d scans positive or negative on the scans. I've been doing both every 10 pounds to get an idea of where I might be for LBM and the last results were 103.6 (IB) and 113.9 (F3d). A while back, I got a bit spooked when I read somewhere that a person should consider at least 1g/target weight, which for me currently is around 145-150 (may go a bit below that, but that's my re-evaluate point). 145-150g also meets the RFL guidelines for strength training at cat 2, so that was another reason I decided to go for it.

When it boils down to the basics, other than getting out of obesity, my core goals are getting stronger and gaining endurance/being able to life without feeling like I'm at the short end of the stick fitness-wise. Perhaps in the distant future I'd look into rock climbing/bouldering. I know women do not generally bulk up much, but I really do not want to do a hypertrophy weight routine, aside from maybe eventually some targeted areas, a la sardelsa, once I figure out where I'm really at as a baseline aesthetically (never been a healthy weight since I was 2 or 3, obese the vast majority of the rest of the time).

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: Is 120g really going to be enough for me based on my current estimated LBM and end goals?

After that, in order to make the dietary decision, perhaps I should see what your thoughts are for strength training. I have seen many good reviews of NROLFW and Strong Curves, but have not looked into them yet. Would you say there would be a more compatible non-hypertrophy program to pair with my current close-to-RFL WOE if I would decide to stick it out that would at least enable me to keep my current muscle mass? The CNS stress thing is something I hadn't ever heard of, so I want to flesh out a couple of realistic "roads" to consider.

Thank you once again for your time and consideration!

psuLemon

Ok, let me add a few more things to think about. The 1g per lb of bw assumes a person is going to end up at an average or below average weight/body fat for their height. At 5'1", 150 lbs would still be over weight. And while its still a good goal, most women at that height would generally aim for 110-125 lbs. Its kind of where my protein number came from. Additionally, don't put too much stock in your initial number. Often what i see is people focusing on a number and never hitting their goal image because their initial plan didn't allow for it.

Next, one should assume that when you have large amounts of weight to lose, that some of that loss will be from LBM. Given that, and given the lack of propensity for bulk/cut cycles by most women (not suggesting you are one) the optimal path is to maintain or gain some muscle while cutting weight. It will reduce the overall time required to get to your ideal body frame.

How do you achieve this? Following a structured lifting plan, that allows for strength and muscle gains. Given that muscle hypertrophy can occur in a variety of rep ranges and so can muscle gains, its possible that you can gain some muscle doing SL, especially since you are really at noob status, which is ok. Overall, i think you would sell yourself short if you believe that you shouldn't aim for hypertrophy. If anything, you should focus on a program that will ideally focus on your end state goal. If you want more lower body muscle without much upper body gains, StrongCurves or Stephanie Buttermores programs are good options. They are lower centric. NROL and Thinner Leaner Stronger are good overall programs that many women can enjoy and benefit from. They are a bit higher rep, so they achieve gains through volume and intensity. Overall, all of these programs a good places to start. I personally like them more than SL or SS. The latter programs are really only good for teaching you the big lifts.

CNS = central nervous system. Programs that have you hitting 80-95% of your 1RM frequently are going to tax it a lot. This can make recovery difficult, especially on a program like RFL. Its why LM recommends lower volume and lighter intensity. For real heavy programs, you need the calories. So doing that and light cardio is really going to stress your body. And it is likely what is preventing your gains. In the end, what is more important to you, lifting or fat loss. Either way, i do think you could get balance through a keto diet over RFL.

If I was training you, i would have you eating keto with the occasional fast or low calorie day in the beginning as you can safely lose 1.75- 2 lbs a week. After the first 30 lbs, I would add a bit more calories to help improve your gym performance. And I would probably move you off SL to one of the four programs above as they are more complete.

Hopefully, this gives you something to think about. And if you have more questions, let me know.

MelodiousMermaid

Thank you for all the information. It is very helpful in figuring out which direction to go.

For the moment I think the glucose tabs have given me a good bandaid, so to speak, and I'm operating a lot better, so I think I might ride the wave until Christmas (diet break). My gut reaction to all the information is to look into NROL in the meantime and plan to add a bit of fats back in after break. Will have to assess plans for training and cardio with overall caloric needs to determine where to land. I've got the spreadsheet heybales came up with for that. I'd still do the glucose or carb cycling with this route, right?