Healing and Calorie Deficits
lauriekallis
Posts: 4,770 Member
I know many of us have experienced injuries during our weight-loss journey. I think a thread focussed on how to handle calories during healing - a repository for our knowledge and experience could prove very useful.
Where should we draw the line between too big of a deficit / too many "junk" calories / the strain of weight gain / any dangers a calorie deficit presents to healing / extra nutritional needs? How to achieve a good balance? What IS the best balance?
I haven't done any research yet - but am hoping posting this here and sharing our experiences will inspire some.
Where should we draw the line between too big of a deficit / too many "junk" calories / the strain of weight gain / any dangers a calorie deficit presents to healing / extra nutritional needs? How to achieve a good balance? What IS the best balance?
I haven't done any research yet - but am hoping posting this here and sharing our experiences will inspire some.
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Ugh MFP app losing posts
More often than not at elusive maintenance. Burn, bone, surgery may generate short term additional energy needs in the 10-20% range. Listen to doctor. Especially if they make sense 😹😹😹1 -
https://www.hss.edu/conditions_nutrition-for-healing.asp
I worked for my entire career in a university teaching hospital, where I had the opportunity to hear our surgeons take to their soapboxes to rant on their favourite topics for hours on end . One of their perennial complaints was people who negatively impacted the healing process by failing to give their bodies adequate nutrition. The consensus appeared to be that patients ought at the very least to eat at TDEE + 10%.
They would have approved of the above recommendation to aim for 15-20 calories per pound of bodyweight, as it's very close to their rule of thumb that patients should aim for 200 calories per stone of bodyweight.1 -
Here are some of my favorite potential calculation complications that make things so individualized: sedentary TDEE plus 10 to 20% for me, for example, is significantly less than my normal TDEE which is just about 40% above sedentary.
So, in fact, eating above sedentary tdee would be a cut in total number of calories eaten.
Also, not all injuries/illnesses require similar amounts of extra calories though I think there is a lot of evidence that burns and bones tend to take the most.
In any case and for sure aiming for weight LOSS is not going to speed up healing.
But I doubt that rapid REAL fat gain will help either. I stress real fat gain because so many times we may be dealing with water weight variations and not actual fat gain.
I guess a non controversial statement could be that healing requires calories and is potentially slowed down by applying a deficit.
It doesn't help that most people don't track calories so they don't arrive at a hospital with a known previous tdee spreadsheet! 😂1 -
thank you ... full sling ... no typey ... just reading and smiling, feeling the love2
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lauriekallis wrote: »thank you ... full sling ... no typey ... just reading and smiling, feeling the love
Glad you are feeling a little better!…..Laurie, we have to do better in 2022!….we need to be those Hot Mommas!2 -
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Ok….you can be a Hot Poppie!0 -
I'm marking disagree on principle!
Hey Google thingy... what the *kittens* does a Floridian mean when she says "Hot Poppie"?
HOT POPPIE!
HHHHH OOOOO TTTTTTT POOOOOOOOPEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
POOOOOO --- PEEEEEEE !
Arrgh, you piece of *kitten*: HHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOT POOOOOOOOO PEEEEEEEEEEEE
Oh *kittens*, i give up!
*wtf is with my feed full of diaper ads now?!?!?!?!
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To broaden your linguistic horizons about Hot Papi (poppie) -
Papi is a colloquial term for “daddy” in Spanish, but in many Spanish-speaking cultures, particularly in the Caribbean, it is often used as a general term of affection for any man, whether it's a relative, friend, or lover. The English “baby,” used as a term of endearment for spouses and children alike, is similar.3 -
PAV is a hot Papi, Poppie, Poppy, Daddy - he's no poopee but there is some *kittens* troubles happening with his keyboard!
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Back to healing/nutrition. I'm still a bit torn (lol, literally and figuratively) - but reading the link you left Bella reminded me to watch my calcium. (which is usually pretty high - but good to be mindful).
My problem is - when I'm "on" - significant deficit, organized eating - I'm getting more "nutrition" by far than the average person. Just not enough calories. When I'm "off" - especially now when I feel very limited - I'm eating more calories - but probably less "nutrition," definitely gaining body fat (there is a roll I haven't had in a very long time), which is going to up the inflammation too, and the mental misery. Then I'm not only hurting and "disabled" but I feel really crappy about myself.
I'm not really less active because of this anymore - that only happened a couple of days in the first weeks. And my five little wounds have healed.
I'm at the "attach tendons, attach" and maybe some minor surface bone healing because they grind that down to encourage the tendons to attach - but I think the bone healing might be done by now? What I though of as bone pain has pretty well stopped.
So it is not a whole heck of a lot different from a sprained ankle?
I'm wondering just how important are calories to healing when you isolate the calories data from the nutrition data? And, you have some nice readily available new body fat for the body to draw from?
Ideally I would go for a perfect maintenance program right now, but that isn't happening, and I've been trying for five weeks. I'm starting to think my long term maintenance will just be switching back and forth between losing and gaining (hopefully within a five pound range).
What period does our body look at the calorie intake before it starts eating muscle or shuts down healing/maintenance? 12 hours? a day? a week? Or does it only eat muscle when the deficit is extreme and the nutrition is poor and there is no readily available body fat to convert?
I found this research - and it really bothered me to think of these rates being wounded but the data is interesting:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3528375/
Summary being that nutrition being equal between two groups of wounded rats, those that ate a calorie restricted diet healed more slowly - unless they were "refed" before the wounding, and then they healed at the same rate as those who ate normally.
If this applies to my current "healing" situation - it seems I did very well eating a lot prior to surgery. I didn't know what I was doing, but perhaps my body did? (I'm not really joking).
So much to learn...only one lifetime....2 -
When I'm at a deficit (either larger or smaller but consistent) my nails grow very slowly.
When I'm gaining weight it is not uncommon for me to be clipping nails often.
Resting heart rate from Fitbit mirrors that in my experience to the degree I can isolate from the complications of amount of exercise taking place as well as stress levels, all of which also affect resting heart rates. Also hr is affected by weight for me regardless of cause, i e sodium or fat
Nails are a secondary activity for the body, I would think. Core temperature changes will probably follow, or be the result, not lead cellular activity.
The idea behind seeking longevity increases due to caloric restriction is to reach a reduced metabolic equilibrium at the minimum level of cellular activity without generating further weight loss. The figures I've seen on that are of the order of 10% to 20% restriction.
There seems to be more "give" for a slow down without loss of weight than there seems to be an eat more without gaining weight upside of intake.
So my reasoning utterly without proof is that I wouldn't expect overeating more than 5% max 10% to take place without weight gain. I also wouldn't expect a larger than 20% deficit to stall till well into health issues.
Anecdotally I see the occasional overeating in the context of normal or deficit eating to not result in long term weight gain. But in the context of normal+ eating I do see the larger day intake taking hold
Sort off that the ground is already saturated and you throw more water in the mix and the ground expands 😹vs you have dry ground that either sucks in an occasional downpour or sheds it off as a quick surface flood because it was too much at one time to be taken into the clay soil.
Not sure if any of this helps! Contemplating falls off stationary bikes 😘🤯🤬3 -
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Nope: 20% WILL result in slow down. That's what the CR people are hoping for. reduced cellular activity. But reduced cellular activity also equals slower healing.
Max healing, I would expect same as max muscle building would happen at surplus.
But it is a continuum. And someone "bulking" probably wouldn't aim for unlimited surplus.
Difference between a slow bulk and a dirty bulk. Anything beyond a slow bulk (so I would say +250) becomes too fast to be providing a net benefit for anyone not training at peak perfection and on steroids to boot!
The variable is the interplay between where TDEE IS (due to any extra requirement for heeling less any adjustments for impaired activity) and where TDEE + a tiny bit would be located.
Based on your evidence... you're well above TDEE. Is the answer going below TDEE sharply while heeling? Probably not for optimal heeling. But rapid bulk probably not THAT good either, right?
If I were+1000 on average... I would first bring it down to 1000 to -100 / +100 and then worry about the more detailed adjustments!
How the hamster handling takes place... strategic lies? The honest truth? THAT I am not sure!
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Since before I began this weight loss journey almost two years ago now, I've been trying to incorporate some supplements into the diet: first for the worn/torn joints, and then to give the skin a boost (hoping for some restored elasticity...lol), and now for regrowing those shoulder tendons/muscles (fingers crossed).
One that I started a back in October was L-Arginine. An amino acid that is supposed to stimulate growth hormone (yeah I know - who really knows though?).
I'm just about out and am thinking I will continue it for another 3 months.
Some things I've read suggest that some of my weight gain perhaps/might be attributed to this supplement. That is okay...would be a bit of a relief though
Anyone have any experience with supplements? This one in particular? Others? Suggestions?2 -
Kind of wary of all supplements especially after many reports of contamination and false labeling. I am taking calcium and vitamin D3 on doctors advice after hip problems and stress fracture but not wildly happy with that or seeing any appreciable results. I think maybe it’s “this is good for all old people” so you should take it too. 🙄 Don’t know that enough study has been done on supplements and the sketchy characters peddling them. Costco has an entire aisle full of magic supplements and that just can’t be good! 🧐2
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I know, Yooly! It is a slippery slope. I'm trying to research (using legitimate studies only) to navigate this water. I am taking D3 & K2 though I eat enough greens that the K2 isn't necessarily necessary but just in case (did your doctor mention the need to get enough K2 to help you properly absorb the extra D?)
My calcium is more than covered in my diet. That is a big one for us "mature" women losing significant amounts of weight - apparently a big issue with osteoporosis.
Part of me is extra conscious because I don't eat meat - but - for better or worse, I have my heavy on the meat German mom who was in a wheelchair from her late 40s onward from lupus/joint issues to ease some of my worries on that front.
But, when trying to eat at a deficit, it doesn't seem unreasonable ??? to boost some components of my diet with a very low calorie alternative?
I've also been quite careful about brands. Because as always, there are good and bad in every field. And again, as always, you tend to get what you pay for.2 -
I guess I’m just naturally skeptical. I’ve been through the vitamin C will cure everything phase. And then vitamin E is good for the heart only to be told NOT! The whole baby aspirin thing, omega 3, bran fiber, high carb diets. Maybe if it’s supposed to help you, it can also hurt you? I don’t know!
My mother lived to 96 eating massive amounts of chocolate, pastries, cured meats. Never took any meds or had serious weight problems. Go figure!
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It is all a mystery to me - and hopefully we'll make it through. I never in my life took supplements until my tendons/ligaments went on strike a few years ago. All of a sudden - in my knees/wrist/foot/shoulder - tendons/ligaments that had the normal you're getting old chronic overuse issues decided they weren't going to hold on anymore. Injury after injury they "popped" one after the other. Things have eased up. Touch wood. I don't know why it started. Maybe just years of hard labour just took its toll all at once? I don't know why it stopped. I'm just going to work on repairing the "storm" damage, do everything I can to prevent another and keep my fingers crossed.3
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Examine.com usually has interesting info and do sell subscriptions (no need to buy) but not supplements 😹1
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I take a multi vitamin every morning and my prescribed meds for high blood pressure,depression, and cholesterol…..I eat enough vegetables and fruit to cover the vitamins….I eat meat and I drink an Almond milk and have no problem with lack of bone density….I should eat more citrus fruit….3
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Thank you, PAV - that site is really helpful. So it seems aiming for more arginine might be a good idea - but there are better ways to accomplish that.3
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I'm in the Yooly camp - I've never taken any supplements, and hope never to need any. My MIL takes 16 different supplements every day - that's almost as many medications as my husband, but at least his are prescribed by a qualified medical team. We've warned her and warned her about the potential dangers of overabsorption of iron, adverse interactions etc....it's water off a duck's back. She's chasing eternal youth and it's costing her a fortune in supplements and lotions. Her face creams alone (she uses 4 different ones per day) cost her £320 each month.
She makes Connie seem low maintenance! 3 -
Bella the only face cream I use is Oil of Olay and some days I forget to use it!3
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The older I get, the more comfortable I am with just me. Gray hair, wrinkles, loose skin and all. Sure I want to be healthier and lose weight. But not much can be done to reverse the aging process so I may as well celebrate it. I earned all the damage over the years! Besides who am I kidding?
My mother was quite vain. Dyed her hair, wore much makeup, girdles etc. until her dying day at 96. She was quite angry with me when I quit dyeing my hair at age 50 because how could she have a gray-haired daughter!!! That was an affront to her imaginary youthfulness. I think putting up with her vanity just wore mine out.2 -
Oh...at this stage of the game I'm kind of sorry that I didn't worry about face creams/oils...and that I spent so much of my life in the sun. A bit late for that now...but maybe I can obsess over that for awhile and roll back the skin clock?
I'm going to stick to my supplement plan til August - just in case it is helping - and then I'll happily retire that routine. It is a pain remembering, and taking them with the correct food, emptiness/fullness of belly etc. Once I'm sucessfully healed (fingers crossed) I won't know why I beat the odds - but I'll know I did everything possible to beat them, whether it was rational or not ! 3 -
Not that I’m against face cream or sun screens! Use lotions but mostly the industrial variety.2
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I am holding on to my “ youth “ as long as I can!….right now my hair is in need of a trim and color job but that is not my norm….I have been having my hair dyed since my 30s….the gray hair drains the color from my skin….I have had minor cosmetic eye surgery and I never have regretted it….i like it when people can not guess my age…I agree some of my wrinkles I have earned….although a little Botox might be nice!3
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I agree, Connie. But I'm afraid I kind of missed the boat. Face lifting surgery I think I would do without a second thought if I had the money. Too much sun and the weight loss created quite the mess. I'm not being terribly self critical - just observant...lol. I paint portraits so spend a lot of time looking closely at skin and I know my face is at least 10 years my senior. My mom (adoptive unfortunately gene wise) looked 20 years younger than her years - I always admired her skin. She also ate well - and was always plump, which I think helps on the skin front.3
