Speed of reps
paprad
Posts: 321 Member
I don't have a trainer and have worked on my form after viewing endless videos and reading lots of guides. Today, after someone watched my form, I was told I was doing my reps too fast, and that could be true. Is there a way to count reps? I presume there is a sweet spot between too fast and too slow - or is it that the slower the better? I am doing the AllPro Routine, which begins with 8 reps and ends with 12 reps, which means in the fifth week I would be doing 48 reps of each exercise. Clearly if I did each rep verreeee verreee slowly, i would spend all day in the gym. Should I do a one-mississippi, two-mississippi - or is that just sillysilly?
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Replies
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What you are referring to is the concept of "cadence" or "time under tension." I think this one of the more critically important components of good form, but it gets lost on most people. The number of sets listed in most programs are just a bunch of made-up crap. What matters is how long your muscles are under tension before you fail. Here is some research:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22106173These data show that greater muscle time under tension increased the acute amplitude of mitochondrial and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis and also resulted in a robust, but delayed stimulation of myofibrillar protein synthesis 24-30 h after resistance exercise.
A set should take about 75 seconds. Slow it down. Emphasize the negative portion of the lift. Move the bar until you can't move it any more. Eat a steak. Make some gains. Profit.
Here is a good article:
http://www.mensfitness.com/training/build-muscle/gain-big-with-time-under-tension-training0 -
Depends what you're going for. I can side with arguements of going slow if your primary goal is hypertrophy.
But if you're trying to move more weight and get stronger, moving it quickly is the way to go.0 -
What you are referring to is the concept of "cadence" or "time under tension." I think this one of the more critically important components of good form, but it gets lost on most people. The number of sets listed in most programs are just a bunch of made-up crap. What matters is how long your muscles are under tension before you fail.
....
A set should take about 75 seconds.
Thanks for the links Errata, I will go through them. I am a bit confused by the above, though. If the number of sets is not relevant but a set should take 75 seconds - how many reps would be in that set? Do you mean I should do as many reps as I can, as slowly as i can, as long as it is for 75 seconds.
I am sorry if I sound a bit dense, but as a newbie to lifting, I find the "as slow as you can" a difficult method to follow - would some sort of counting work?0 -
Thanks ilovedeadlift - that's a good point. I am nearly 50 and I just began lifting. My weights are very low so far, though I've increased by some 40% in the last four months. So I would say that for now, I want to get stronger, lift heavier - I am eating at a deficit so gaining muscle is not possible anyway. So I guess that rules out hypertrophy.Depends what you're going for. I can side with arguements of going slow if your primary goal is hypertrophy.
But if you're trying to move more weight and get stronger, moving it quickly is the way to go.0 -
Depends what you're going for. I can side with arguements of going slow if your primary goal is hypertrophy.
But if you're trying to move more weight and get stronger, moving it quickly is the way to go.
Are you saying she should jerk the weight around as fast as she can to gain strength?0 -
It might a bit over kill to time the tempo of reps but you should be making sure the eccentric portion of the rep is controlled. Say on bench press you would want to control the weight on the way down instead of just letting gravity lower it for you.
In addition to the other articles posted here is another good one.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_hypertrophy_specialist0 -
Depends what you're going for. I can side with arguements of going slow if your primary goal is hypertrophy.
But if you're trying to move more weight and get stronger, moving it quickly is the way to go.
Are you saying she should jerk the weight around as fast as she can to gain strength?
Moving quickly =/= jerking the weight around (well, at least not necessarily).0 -
Keep it simple. Based on your lifting experience and goals, don't over think it. Keep the motion controlled but go as fast or slow as 'feels right'. You do not have to bother to time anything. Strength goals have very little to do with TUT, so don't mess around with it. Just control your lifts.0
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Are you breathing properly? Sometimes that can be an issue when going too quickly.0
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What you are referring to is the concept of "cadence" or "time under tension." I think this one of the more critically important components of good form, but it gets lost on most people. The number of sets listed in most programs are just a bunch of made-up crap. What matters is how long your muscles are under tension before you fail. Here is some research:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22106173These data show that greater muscle time under tension increased the acute amplitude of mitochondrial and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis and also resulted in a robust, but delayed stimulation of myofibrillar protein synthesis 24-30 h after resistance exercise.
A set should take about 75 seconds. Slow it down. Emphasize the negative portion of the lift. Move the bar until you can't move it any more. Eat a steak. Make some gains. Profit.
Here is a good article:
http://www.mensfitness.com/training/build-muscle/gain-big-with-time-under-tension-training
You do not need to move the bar until you can't move it anymore, and in fact that can be counter-productive if done too often and the advisability of it is dependent on your routine. You also do not need to eat steak.
I would also argue that sets/reps in programs are not a bunch of made up crap.0 -
As your goal is strength more than muscle gain, this is not as relevant, but as the topic digressed that way before you were asked what your goals were, this is a good read:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/4_reasons_youre_not_gaining_muscle
Another one from Brad Schoenfeld (mustgetmuscles' link was an interview of him by Contreras). His stuff is very solid.0 -
While I agree with keeping the eccentric contraction of the movement slow and controlled, wouldn't you want to power through the concentric contraction in order to activate your fast-twitch muscle fibers?0
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While I agree with keeping the eccentric contraction of the movement slow and controlled, wouldn't you want to power through the concentric contraction in order to activate your fast-twitch muscle fibers?
Depends on goals, but it should always be controlled.0 -
Based on your lifting experience and goals, don't over think it. Keep the motion controlled but go as fast or slow as 'feels right'.
^this.0 -
That's great, thanks for the advice and the links, Sara. I am not jerking and I think I am controlled but perhaps I can work on control more consciously than I've done so far.
PriceK, I did wonder about the breathing issue - with 12 reps, i can't do the same kind of breath control as is possible with say 3-5 reps, so sometimes I find myself holding the breath for 2 reps at a time, and it may contribute the speed, perhaps.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
Snark..not necessary, not productive and not welcome here. No one said that TUT is irrelevant.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of overal volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen many people who trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over overal total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....0 -
Just to clarify I do think tut has some use in specific bodybuilding routines [mike menzer /dorian Yates HIT style for example not those set up like allpro]
Although it does seem to have been accepted that those aren't optimal set ups for natural people.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
Snark..not necessary, not productive and not welcome here. No one said that TUT is irrelevant.
You'll have to forgive me. I like to combine sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum. They go well together. Nevertheless, I meant no harm, but if my humor is not appreciated, I apologize....
As for the discussion/digression, while you didn't say TUT was irrelevant, you did say that it had very little to do with strength gains, which to me means it is practically irrelevant. The point I am making is valid because your assertion isn't supported by empirical data. If the amount of time a person's muscles were under tension had very little to do with strength gains then someone would be able to just lift their 1RM on all of their lifts and gain more than someone who is lifting less weight, but for more reps (and a longer time). The person who is using less weight, but putting their muscles under mechanical tension for a longer amount of time will make more gains in strength. This is obviously only true to a certainly point. There clearly is an optimal range of intensity and duration of mechanical tension (weight and reps, effectively).
Both the intensity and the duration of mechanical tension are very relevant to strength gains. In fact, a lot of powerlifters are finding that more volume combined with progressive overloading is the way to go (Sheiko). In truth, this is nothing new. Ed Coan did the same thing with basic periodization principles. He started out with higher reps at the beginning of the cycle and used the higher rep/more volume technique to build toward more strength (more weight/lower reps). Ed Coan is the undisputed master of powerlifting. There is no one in the field as accomplished as Ed. My point is that volume, and TUT indirectly, matter just as much as the amount of weight you are using.
To the OP: Lift the weight at a speed that you find to be comfortable for you and doesn't break your form. Like Sara said, keep things simple. While I am a huge proponent of steak consumption and lifting to failure, they are not strictly necessary for muscle gains. And if you are curious, I use a stop-watch to keep track of how long my sets/reps take. I think it is important, so I keep track of it.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.0 -
Here is a good article on speed training. The Russians like it. I think it is useless. So does Tuchscherer.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/03/28/speed-work-not-this-again/0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
Snark..not necessary, not productive and not welcome here. No one said that TUT is irrelevant.
You'll have to forgive me. I like to combine sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum. They go well together. Nevertheless, I meant no harm, but if my humor is not appreciated, I apologize....
As for the discussion/digression, while you didn't say TUT was irrelevant, you did say that it had very little to do with strength gains, which to me means it is practically irrelevant. The point I am making is valid because your assertion isn't supported by empirical data. If the amount of time a person's muscles were under tension had very little to do with strength gains then someone would be able to just lift their 1RM on all of their lifts and gain more than someone who is lifting less weight, but for more reps (and a longer time). The person who is using less weight, but putting their muscles under mechanical tension for a longer amount of time will make more gains in strength. This is obviously only true to a certainly point. There clearly is an optimal range of intensity and duration of mechanical tension (weight and reps, effectively).
Both the intensity and the duration of mechanical tension are very relevant to strength gains. In fact, a lot of powerlifters are finding that more volume combined with progressive overloading is the way to go (Sheiko). In truth, this is nothing new. Ed Coan did the same thing with basic periodization principles. He started out with higher reps at the beginning of the cycle and used the higher rep/more volume technique to build toward more strength (more weight/lower reps). Ed Coan is the undisputed master of powerlifting. There is no one in the field as accomplished as Ed. My point is that volume, and TUT indirectly, matter just as much as the amount of weight you are using.
To the OP: Lift the weight at a speed that you find to be comfortable for you and doesn't break your form. Like Sara said, keep things simple. While I am a huge proponent of steak consumption and lifting to failure, they are not strictly necessary for muscle gains. And if you are curious, I use a stop-watch to keep track of how long my sets/reps take. I think it is important, so I keep track of it.
Context is important when giving advice. There is lots of nerding out that can be done re TUT, reps, sets, speed work, volume, rest periods, periodization etc etc, but for 90% of people it is not really that relevant. The OP is a novice lifter who is looking to get stronger.
The TUT and strength goals I was referring to was within each set as this is the topic you had brought up. I would argue that its the volume that is important, not the time it takes to do a rep (assuming that the lift is controlled and at a measured pace).0 -
#Here is a good article on speed training. The Russians like it. I think it is useless. So does Tuchscherer.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/03/28/speed-work-not-this-again/
Fair enough I have read that article before and Tuchscherer's original 'speed work doesn't work' article, he's still in the minority on that side of the fence for the time being (which doesn't mean he is wrong of course).
Although mike does not dedicate any portion of his training to conventional 'speed work' I bet he still tries to move the bar as quickly as possible on all lifts, which was the point I was originally getting at. Pretty sure in some of his youtube vidoes he states he actually measures the bar speed with a tendo unit, so bar speed is of importance to him.
I still think speed work has it's place, but it should be done at closer to 70-75% of 1RM rather than 50-60% as westside describes.
As usual I will revert to eric helms for a typically well thought out and balanced opinion
Dynamic Effort (DE)/Speed Work, Powerlifting and Bodybuilding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jmLkJHeWyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZSPxqDq6Yg
I think the line of this thread has become a little bit confused between 'time under tension for each individual rep and set' and 'total time under tension' which are 2 different things and probably didn't help the discussion.0 -
Now I am nerding out!
http://www.simplyshredded.com/time-under-tension-the-scientifically-engineered-set-timing-technique-2.html
"For maximizing strength, the ideal TUT is about 20 seconds or less; for muscle mass, it’s at least 40 seconds; and for muscle endurance, it’s at least 70 seconds."
For me, that's about equal to 3 - 5 reps for heavy work.
This is more or less consistent with the first article posted in the thread (it mentioned 30 - 40 seconds) - but that was re muscle growth.0 -
this.Now I am nerding out!
http://www.simplyshredded.com/time-under-tension-the-scientifically-engineered-set-timing-technique-2.html
"For maximizing strength, the ideal TUT is about 20 seconds or less; for muscle mass, it’s at least 40 seconds; and for muscle endurance, it’s at least 70 seconds."
For me, that's about equal to 3 - 5 reps for heavy work.
This is more or less consistent with the first article posted in the thread (it mentioned 30 - 40 seconds) - but that was re muscle growth.
for hypertrophy
slow moving reps can be 5-10 such as the bench press
short reps such as calf raises or shrugs can be 15-20 reps
See creatine phosphate? (PC)
Strength, thats the same role where creatine supplementation comes into play
lactic acid is that burning sensation you get from lifting0 -
Thanks all, for the additional links and discussion - even though I am a newbie and the advanced technical knowledge is not needed for me as yet, I found all this fascinating.
I noticed that just having raised the topic and having all your views, has made me much more conscious of my form and control - felt much better with my lifting session today0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.
More reps and sets increases the total time under tension. Doing reps slowly also increases time under tension (and allows you to control the weight, prevent injury, and maintain proper form). My claim is that volume through more sets and reps is really just increasing TUT. Moreover, I am willing to make a claim that TUT and rep count has a direct correlation, that is, your rep threshold to failure using different cadences will vary, but your TUT will be the same.
Bring a stop-watch to the gym next time and test it. Physics doesn't care about reps. It cares about time. There is no magical set/rep combo, only the intensity of mechanical tension (weight) and its duration (time).Thanks all, for the additional links and discussion - even though I am a newbie and the advanced technical knowledge is not needed for me as yet, I found all this fascinating.
I noticed that just having raised the topic and having all your views, has made me much more conscious of my form and control - felt much better with my lifting session today
Excellent! I am glad you found the discussion useful. At the end of the day, I recommend you experiment and see what works best for you.0
This discussion has been closed.