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Speed of reps
Replies
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You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
Snark..not necessary, not productive and not welcome here. No one said that TUT is irrelevant.
You'll have to forgive me. I like to combine sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum. They go well together. Nevertheless, I meant no harm, but if my humor is not appreciated, I apologize....
As for the discussion/digression, while you didn't say TUT was irrelevant, you did say that it had very little to do with strength gains, which to me means it is practically irrelevant. The point I am making is valid because your assertion isn't supported by empirical data. If the amount of time a person's muscles were under tension had very little to do with strength gains then someone would be able to just lift their 1RM on all of their lifts and gain more than someone who is lifting less weight, but for more reps (and a longer time). The person who is using less weight, but putting their muscles under mechanical tension for a longer amount of time will make more gains in strength. This is obviously only true to a certainly point. There clearly is an optimal range of intensity and duration of mechanical tension (weight and reps, effectively).
Both the intensity and the duration of mechanical tension are very relevant to strength gains. In fact, a lot of powerlifters are finding that more volume combined with progressive overloading is the way to go (Sheiko). In truth, this is nothing new. Ed Coan did the same thing with basic periodization principles. He started out with higher reps at the beginning of the cycle and used the higher rep/more volume technique to build toward more strength (more weight/lower reps). Ed Coan is the undisputed master of powerlifting. There is no one in the field as accomplished as Ed. My point is that volume, and TUT indirectly, matter just as much as the amount of weight you are using.
To the OP: Lift the weight at a speed that you find to be comfortable for you and doesn't break your form. Like Sara said, keep things simple. While I am a huge proponent of steak consumption and lifting to failure, they are not strictly necessary for muscle gains. And if you are curious, I use a stop-watch to keep track of how long my sets/reps take. I think it is important, so I keep track of it.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.0 -
Here is a good article on speed training. The Russians like it. I think it is useless. So does Tuchscherer.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/03/28/speed-work-not-this-again/0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
Snark..not necessary, not productive and not welcome here. No one said that TUT is irrelevant.
You'll have to forgive me. I like to combine sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum. They go well together. Nevertheless, I meant no harm, but if my humor is not appreciated, I apologize....
As for the discussion/digression, while you didn't say TUT was irrelevant, you did say that it had very little to do with strength gains, which to me means it is practically irrelevant. The point I am making is valid because your assertion isn't supported by empirical data. If the amount of time a person's muscles were under tension had very little to do with strength gains then someone would be able to just lift their 1RM on all of their lifts and gain more than someone who is lifting less weight, but for more reps (and a longer time). The person who is using less weight, but putting their muscles under mechanical tension for a longer amount of time will make more gains in strength. This is obviously only true to a certainly point. There clearly is an optimal range of intensity and duration of mechanical tension (weight and reps, effectively).
Both the intensity and the duration of mechanical tension are very relevant to strength gains. In fact, a lot of powerlifters are finding that more volume combined with progressive overloading is the way to go (Sheiko). In truth, this is nothing new. Ed Coan did the same thing with basic periodization principles. He started out with higher reps at the beginning of the cycle and used the higher rep/more volume technique to build toward more strength (more weight/lower reps). Ed Coan is the undisputed master of powerlifting. There is no one in the field as accomplished as Ed. My point is that volume, and TUT indirectly, matter just as much as the amount of weight you are using.
To the OP: Lift the weight at a speed that you find to be comfortable for you and doesn't break your form. Like Sara said, keep things simple. While I am a huge proponent of steak consumption and lifting to failure, they are not strictly necessary for muscle gains. And if you are curious, I use a stop-watch to keep track of how long my sets/reps take. I think it is important, so I keep track of it.
Context is important when giving advice. There is lots of nerding out that can be done re TUT, reps, sets, speed work, volume, rest periods, periodization etc etc, but for 90% of people it is not really that relevant. The OP is a novice lifter who is looking to get stronger.
The TUT and strength goals I was referring to was within each set as this is the topic you had brought up. I would argue that its the volume that is important, not the time it takes to do a rep (assuming that the lift is controlled and at a measured pace).0 -
#Here is a good article on speed training. The Russians like it. I think it is useless. So does Tuchscherer.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/03/28/speed-work-not-this-again/
Fair enough I have read that article before and Tuchscherer's original 'speed work doesn't work' article, he's still in the minority on that side of the fence for the time being (which doesn't mean he is wrong of course).
Although mike does not dedicate any portion of his training to conventional 'speed work' I bet he still tries to move the bar as quickly as possible on all lifts, which was the point I was originally getting at. Pretty sure in some of his youtube vidoes he states he actually measures the bar speed with a tendo unit, so bar speed is of importance to him.
I still think speed work has it's place, but it should be done at closer to 70-75% of 1RM rather than 50-60% as westside describes.
As usual I will revert to eric helms for a typically well thought out and balanced opinion
Dynamic Effort (DE)/Speed Work, Powerlifting and Bodybuilding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jmLkJHeWyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZSPxqDq6Yg
I think the line of this thread has become a little bit confused between 'time under tension for each individual rep and set' and 'total time under tension' which are 2 different things and probably didn't help the discussion.0 -
Now I am nerding out!
http://www.simplyshredded.com/time-under-tension-the-scientifically-engineered-set-timing-technique-2.html
"For maximizing strength, the ideal TUT is about 20 seconds or less; for muscle mass, it’s at least 40 seconds; and for muscle endurance, it’s at least 70 seconds."
For me, that's about equal to 3 - 5 reps for heavy work.
This is more or less consistent with the first article posted in the thread (it mentioned 30 - 40 seconds) - but that was re muscle growth.0 -
this.Now I am nerding out!
http://www.simplyshredded.com/time-under-tension-the-scientifically-engineered-set-timing-technique-2.html
"For maximizing strength, the ideal TUT is about 20 seconds or less; for muscle mass, it’s at least 40 seconds; and for muscle endurance, it’s at least 70 seconds."
For me, that's about equal to 3 - 5 reps for heavy work.
This is more or less consistent with the first article posted in the thread (it mentioned 30 - 40 seconds) - but that was re muscle growth.
for hypertrophy
slow moving reps can be 5-10 such as the bench press
short reps such as calf raises or shrugs can be 15-20 reps
See creatine phosphate? (PC)
Strength, thats the same role where creatine supplementation comes into play
lactic acid is that burning sensation you get from lifting0 -
Thanks all, for the additional links and discussion - even though I am a newbie and the advanced technical knowledge is not needed for me as yet, I found all this fascinating.
I noticed that just having raised the topic and having all your views, has made me much more conscious of my form and control - felt much better with my lifting session today0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.
More reps and sets increases the total time under tension. Doing reps slowly also increases time under tension (and allows you to control the weight, prevent injury, and maintain proper form). My claim is that volume through more sets and reps is really just increasing TUT. Moreover, I am willing to make a claim that TUT and rep count has a direct correlation, that is, your rep threshold to failure using different cadences will vary, but your TUT will be the same.
Bring a stop-watch to the gym next time and test it. Physics doesn't care about reps. It cares about time. There is no magical set/rep combo, only the intensity of mechanical tension (weight) and its duration (time).Thanks all, for the additional links and discussion - even though I am a newbie and the advanced technical knowledge is not needed for me as yet, I found all this fascinating.
I noticed that just having raised the topic and having all your views, has made me much more conscious of my form and control - felt much better with my lifting session today
Excellent! I am glad you found the discussion useful. At the end of the day, I recommend you experiment and see what works best for you.0 -
Now I am nerding out!
http://www.simplyshredded.com/time-under-tension-the-scientifically-engineered-set-timing-technique-2.html
"For maximizing strength, the ideal TUT is about 20 seconds or less; for muscle mass, it’s at least 40 seconds; and for muscle endurance, it’s at least 70 seconds."
For me, that's about equal to 3 - 5 reps for heavy work.
This is more or less consistent with the first article posted in the thread (it mentioned 30 - 40 seconds) - but that was re muscle growth.
That article is way better than the one I posted. Do what is best for you based on your goals.
0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.
More reps and sets increases the total time under tension. Doing reps slowly also increases time under tension (and allows you to control the weight, prevent injury, and maintain proper form). My claim is that volume through more sets and reps is really just increasing TUT. Moreover, I am willing to make a claim that TUT and rep count has a direct correlation, that is, your rep threshold to failure using different cadences will vary, but your TUT will be the same.
Bring a stop-watch to the gym next time and test it. Physics doesn't care about reps. It cares about time. There is no magical set/rep combo, only the intensity of mechanical tension (weight) and its duration (time).
If you note the TUT noted in that article, it pretty much correlates with the time you take using a controlled approach (but not necessarily slow) to lifts.
3 - 5 reps - more or less 20 seconds (strength range)
6 - 12 reps - more or less 40 seconds (hyper range)
13+ - endurance
Also, just focusing on TUT misses a possible variable with regard to reps. Doing 5 squats for 20 seconds will be far more beneficial to my goals (which are strength based) than doing one really really slow one for 20 seconds.
Another thing that I think can be over-thought - what about when you have a slight pause to reset, for example between deads - do you count that? I assume not. How do you time it? It all gets a bit silly at the end of the day. Just get under a barbell and squat with a sensible rep range, at a reasonable speed, with good form, at a weight that makes sense based on your goals.
The test would be interesting but there are too many variables to do a controlled one to come to any conclusions.0 -
You'll have to pardon my terrible advice. Since the amount of time under tension is irrelevant to strength gains, just lift your 1RM repeatedly until you get stronger. You clearly cannot get stronger by lifting lighter weights over a longer period of time with more reps, so please disregard all routines like Sheiko, which emphasize volume.
My bad.
The time under tension element of Sheiko is the large amount of volume, not lifting the weights at a slower tempo. Which was what you were taking about earlier.
Boris Sheiko himself says that the bar should move as fast as possible on the concentric portion of each rep.
Powerlifters use speed training for a reason, yes overall time under tension is important but I haven't seen anyone whi trains/coaches people for strength give the tut of each individual set priority over total load/frequency/volume/bar speed etc.
^^yep. Sheiko has sets primarily in the 3 - 5 rep range.
brb doing 25 second squats and deadlifts....
But Sheiko has a TON of sets and the sets start out at 50% of your 1RM. The overall rep count for a Sheiko routine is huge compared to most routines. If you do Sheiko, you will be at the gym for 1.5 to 2 hours.
I know...but that has nothing to do with speed of reps.
More reps and sets increases the total time under tension. Doing reps slowly also increases time under tension (and allows you to control the weight, prevent injury, and maintain proper form). My claim is that volume through more sets and reps is really just increasing TUT. Moreover, I am willing to make a claim that TUT and rep count has a direct correlation, that is, your rep threshold to failure using different cadences will vary, but your TUT will be the same.
Bring a stop-watch to the gym next time and test it. Physics doesn't care about reps. It cares about time. There is no magical set/rep combo, only the intensity of mechanical tension (weight) and its duration (time).
If you note the TUT noted in that article, it pretty much correlates with the time you take using a controlled approach (but not necessarily slow) to lifts.
3 - 5 reps - more or less 20 seconds (strength range)
6 - 12 reps - more or less 40 seconds (hyper range)
13+ - endurance
Also, just focusing on TUT misses a possible variable with regard to reps. Doing 5 squats for 20 seconds will be far more beneficial to my goals (which are strength based) than doing one really really slow one for 20 seconds.
Another thing that I think can be over-thought - what about when you have a slight pause to reset, for example between deads - do you count that? I assume not. How do you time it? It all gets a bit silly at the end of the day. Just get under a barbell and squat with a sensible rep range, at a reasonable speed, with good form, at a weight that makes sense based on your goals.
The test would be interesting but there are too many variables to do a controlled one to come to any conclusions.
Yea 1 30 second rep would be a little ridiculous. :laugh:0 -
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