Why?
Nutmeg76
Posts: 258 Member
Please remind me that going out into the main firums is assinine. Thank you.
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Yup, a friend posted out there yesterday and I thought I was commenting here and I got flamed/ridiculed by the same person who always comes after me out there… but that's not harassment at all. The same guy has harassed other people enough that they have left MFP. He has no experience with obesity, or other metabolic disorders but is there to jump all over those of us who do, because real life experience is invalid next to his cherry picked "science". But is views are in-line with MFP that the only answer to everything is "calories in/calories out" and the fact that he stalks and ridicules people with different opinions is no problem in the opinion of the moderators.
Asinine and futile. Don't go there!0 -
Agreed.... I can only take in tiny doses before I can't stand it. It's just such a hostile environment.0
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I bet it was the same person. He even admitted in the thread that he likes to "troll the paleo threads". That's counter productive to the MFP mentality of support!0
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Oh I'm so thankful I just found this group. It's like a weight lifted! I feel like an outcast 3rd grader on the main forum. I never ask questions because I know the thread will take an ugly turn.0
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+1
It's like swimming with jellyfish.
It's funny that everyone that I've met through this group is pretty nice, even if we don't eat EXACTLY the same, there's like a friendly *get healthy* consensus and a respectable exchange of opinions.
:drinker:0 -
I reported one of the guys in that thread, then sent a private message to the OP. I try not to participate in Paleo threads on the main forums, if for no other reason than that I can't "unfollow" them, so they stick to the top of my "My Topics" list for freakin' ever until they finally roll.Oh I'm so thankful I just found this group. It's like a weight lifted! I feel like an outcast 3rd grader on the main forum. I never ask questions because I know the thread will take an ugly turn.
Yeah, the main forums have gotten horrible, especially to Paleo folk. I'm probably going to start and keep reporting some of the worst offenders until MFP decides to do something about it.
What saddens me is the double-standards those people have. Not only do the vegans not get nearly the vitriol we get, but the people being the worst always tout "there's not need to do X unless you have a medical condition," yet they still attack the people who start with "my doctor recommended I do X."
(On a side note, I have to really crack up at the people who are like "I tried Paleo, but I got bored with the lack of selection." It takes almost everything in me to keep from telling them that if they're getting bored, then they're doing it wrong! :laugh: )0 -
Totally! If you are bored on paleo it is because you are lazy...too lazy to google, too lazy to cook...too lazy to live. Basically, I feel that those peopel are really saying they got tired of needing to think about thier food and ende dup in a rut, then they couldn't just order a pizza or something so they gave up. I'm not going to lie, I miss the conveience (sp?) of "normal eating" but it just isn't worth it. We are not super strict all the time so recently i had some regular pizza. I learned that pizza from Papa John's and Domino's gives me palpitations, so no more for me thanks! Just not wroth it anymore.
I may just start sending a PM to people that are really curious and have questions so I don't get sucked into the ridiculous discussions.0 -
If you really want to see the fur fly, say "gluten intolerance" on the main forums. It's like the old skit 'Niagara'... "slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch... " :bigsmile:0
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If you really want to see the fur fly, say "gluten intolerance" on the main forums. It's like the old skit 'Niagara'... "slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch... " :bigsmile:
Bahahahaha!
My son has non-celiac gluten intolerance. If anyone wants to question that they can come and visit, feed him crap for two days and then deal with his vomit and diarhea....yeah, it's that fun.
I know for my gluten free was key, because of my thyroid condition.0 -
I quickly learned that there is no place for me outside of a paleo forum as well (unless I lie or become mute). The saying to each their own is lost to all. I even quit logging my food diary (which I was only doing for my own info) as I was tired of the "hateful" opinions of others about what I do or do not put into my body....even though I think my body speaks loudly for itself on the healthiness of it all. I have had people say that I am actually abusing my children because of our paleo lifestyle as they send their kiddies off to school with soda and Twinkies....smh....I have a gluten intolerance and two others in my family have dairy intolerance and it goes way beyond gas and bloating when we accidentally eat something, but hey what would I know about my own body....smh0
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I'm really tired of hearing, "I lost weight on pizza and burgers!" Arghhh, just come back to the light!0
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While we are on the "why?" subject, I have always wondered why vegan diets are perfectly acceptable but paleo/primal ones aren't!
I mean we omit grains (but not all carbs) they omit (all) animal products and no-one tells them off!0 -
Thanks for all the great posts above. Almost made me cry.
I agree with Nutmeg that most people who "tried" Paleo and found it too "hard" are usually just lazy and gave up far too quickly. Yes, it takes some thought, effort, and for some of us, learning new skills. However, our ancestors spent most of their lives focused on getting and preparing food. It's normal! Working in office jobs, commuting, then plopping our butts in front of the television (to watch cooking shows!) is NOT normal. Maybe that's the new normal, but eating healthy food or not is still a matter of CHOICE.
Paleo can be as easy or complicated as one chooses. My favourite meal above all is rare steak, fried mushrooms, and tossed salad. Hard or time consuming to make? Not.
I'm so sick of the mental disconnect that food quality can possibly affect health. It's just so damn illogical.0 -
While we are on the "why?" subject, I have always wondered why vegan diets are perfectly acceptable but paleo/primal ones aren't!
I mean we omit grains (but not all carbs) they omit (all) animal products and no-one tells them off!
Not to defend vegans, but they do get ridiculed too. Unfortunately, they also don't know the difference between ridicule and a valid argument so I don't dare post on any topics to do with vegan diets (even though I'm trying to save lives!). I've been reported and reprimanded for comments that in NO way violate site rules, but whatever.
However, the moderators here don't tolerate any nonsense in the vegan threads (and I'm pretty sure many vegans are trigger happy with the "report" button) like they do in Paleo topics. Paleo bashing is completely acceptable for some reason.0 -
If you really want to see the fur fly, say "gluten intolerance" on the main forums. It's like the old skit 'Niagara'... "slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch... " :bigsmile:
Bahahahaha!
My son has non-celiac gluten intolerance. If anyone wants to question that they can come and visit, feed him crap for two days and then deal with his vomit and diarhea....yeah, it's that fun.
I know for my gluten free was key, because of my thyroid condition.
I hear you. I'm sorry he has to go through that. I'm not celiac, the blood test turned up negative, but it doesn't mean gluten doesn't affect us. I've listened to more than a few people dismiss it as the malady-du-jour. Wait until something hits them, not that I wish it.
Btw, someone else, sympathetic to it said to consider genetic and migratory origins of our (personal) ancestors. My family was from Sicily and southern Italy, but given our appearance, we probably originated in northern Europe where (drumroll please)... grains were not typically grown. We may never have developed the ability to handle them. I am very tempted to do one of those DNA analyses.0 -
Thanks for all the great posts above. Almost made me cry.
I agree with Nutmeg that most people who "tried" Paleo and found it too "hard" are usually just lazy and gave up far too quickly. Yes, it takes some thought, effort, and for some of us, learning new skills. However, our ancestors spent most of their lives focused on getting and preparing food. It's normal! Working in office jobs, commuting, then plopping our butts in front of the television (to watch cooking shows!) is NOT normal. Maybe that's the new normal, but eating healthy food or not is still a matter of CHOICE.
Paleo can be as easy or complicated as one chooses. My favourite meal above all is rare steak, fried mushrooms, and tossed salad. Hard or time consuming to make? Not.
I'm so sick of the mental disconnect that food quality can possibly affect health. It's just so damn illogical.
^^^^Yes yes yes!!!!!!
What good in life doesn't need some effort?0 -
While we are on the "why?" subject, I have always wondered why vegan diets are perfectly acceptable but paleo/primal ones aren't!
I mean we omit grains (but not all carbs) they omit (all) animal products and no-one tells them off!
Not to defend vegans, but they do get ridiculed too. Unfortunately, they also don't know the difference between ridicule and a valid argument so I don't dare post on any topics to do with vegan diets (even though I'm trying to save lives!). I've been reported and reprimanded for comments that in NO way violate site rules, but whatever.
However, the moderators here don't tolerate any nonsense in the vegan threads (and I'm pretty sure many vegans are trigger happy with the "report" button) like they do in Paleo topics. Paleo bashing is completely acceptable for some reason.
I think the thinking is that it's OK to bash folks on either end of the dietary spectrum, because the majority are in the middle. I tried vegetarian (lacto-ovo) a few times, but it doesn't work for me. However, for someone it does work for, all the best to them.0 -
While we are on the "why?" subject, I have always wondered why vegan diets are perfectly acceptable but paleo/primal ones aren't!
I mean we omit grains (but not all carbs) they omit (all) animal products and no-one tells them off!
Not to defend vegans, but they do get ridiculed too. Unfortunately, they also don't know the difference between ridicule and a valid argument so I don't dare post on any topics to do with vegan diets (even though I'm trying to save lives!). I've been reported and reprimanded for comments that in NO way violate site rules, but whatever.
However, the moderators here don't tolerate any nonsense in the vegan threads (and I'm pretty sure many vegans are trigger happy with the "report" button) like they do in Paleo topics. Paleo bashing is completely acceptable for some reason.
From what I've seen, it's far less rampant against the vegans than it is against the Paleos. I've seen more than a few "hey, I'm vegan and looking for vegan friends!" type of posts that go completely untouched by the trolls, but do the same with Paleo and for every "hey, I'm Paleo, too!" there's a page's worth of trolling.
It's a completely different matter when someone makes the claim that vegan is inherently healthier or that everyone should be vegan or whatever. Those deserve it, though, as even most sane vegans will tell you that it's not inherently healthier and making it healthy takes a lot of work (but they don't do it for the health).
I think that's what also contributes to the differences between the vegan threads and the paleo threads -- you can't really argue against ethical decisions (regardless of how misguided they may be). It's a lot easier to rail against something that claims scientific backing, since there's a study out there to support every viewpoint.
It also doesn't help that Paleo's focus is on health and it gets results (if for no other reason than because it focuses on high quality, whole foods). I think most people here have to admit that if they told their pre-Paleo selves that their laundry list of ailments that had been repeatedly dismissed by doctors for one reason or another would be cured or at least put into heavy remission solely by following the principles of a particular diet, it would sound too good to be true (and "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"), and far-fetched, at best. The insane-sounding results, combined with the fact that said results aren't totally unique to Paleo (just about any whole foods based diet, including vegetarianism and a whole-foods approach to IIFYM can make largely the same health improvement claims, because it's the whole foods that contribute largely to it, everything else is just implementation details), doesn't help matters.
One of the things that bugs me, too, is the idea that the only way to achieve a caloric deficit is to count calories. I don't think most people argue that you have to input less energy than you output to lose weight, but the general forums don't seem to get that you don't have to count calories in order to achieve that. Then, of course, there's the whole double-standard that Paleo is "extreme," "unsustainable," "leads to eating disorders," and whatever, but weighing every morsel you put into your mouth and obsessively logging every single thing is healthy for everyone.0 -
@Dragonwolf. Completely agreed!0
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This is definitely my favorite place to be on MFP.
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From what I've seen, it's far less rampant against the vegans than it is against the Paleos. I've seen more than a few "hey, I'm vegan and looking for vegan friends!" type of posts that go completely untouched by the trolls, but do the same with Paleo and for every "hey, I'm Paleo, too!" there's a page's worth of trolling.
The reason for THAT is actually pretty simple...
Veganism has been touted since the '60s countercultural revolution, and by now it has become a 'respectable' option - mostly because it has been on the edges of the collective consciousness for the last 50 years. I can remember when I first tried veganism in the late 60s - the scorn and ridicule was every bit as intense as anything paleo/primal has to put up with.
Paleo/primal, OTOH, has only been in the mainstream perception for the last 5-10 years (I know it has been around longer). The reaction to it is pretty much what the response to veganism was in the '70s.
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When you consider that paleo/primal takes dead aim at the main food addictions of the 20th century - you know how addicts respond when you try to pull the monkey off their back.
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Any time you post anything about eliminating certain foods from your diet people accuse you of having an eating disorder, being a food snob, or the IIFYMer's say that's the only way to lose weight. In the forums people totally forget about seeking overall health and wellbeing along with weight loss. I tried posting recently a few places about eliminating added sugar from my diet and people went crazy. It was like I told them to kill thier children or something!0
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From what I've seen, it's far less rampant against the vegans than it is against the Paleos. I've seen more than a few "hey, I'm vegan and looking for vegan friends!" type of posts that go completely untouched by the trolls, but do the same with Paleo and for every "hey, I'm Paleo, too!" there's a page's worth of trolling.
The reason for THAT is actually pretty simple...
Veganism has been touted since the '60s countercultural revolution, and by now it has become a 'respectable' option - mostly because it has been on the edges of the collective consciousness for the last 50 years. I can remember when I first tried veganism in the late 60s - the scorn and ridicule was every bit as intense as anything paleo/primal has to put up with.
Paleo/primal, OTOH, has only been in the mainstream perception for the last 5-10 years (I know it has been around longer). The reaction to it is pretty much what the response to veganism was in the '70s.
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When you consider that paleo/primal takes dead aim at the main food addictions of the 20th century - you know how addicts respond when you try to pull the monkey off their back.
I so agree with this. I was vegan for most of the time that I've been on MFP. When I started researching more about moving to a whole foods diet and the benefits of traditional style eating paleo began to make more sense. I'm still not totally paleo but am leaning more that way and want to know more. I found great support in the forums as a vegan but paleo, forget it!0 -
From what I've seen, it's far less rampant against the vegans than it is against the Paleos. I've seen more than a few "hey, I'm vegan and looking for vegan friends!" type of posts that go completely untouched by the trolls, but do the same with Paleo and for every "hey, I'm Paleo, too!" there's a page's worth of trolling.
The reason for THAT is actually pretty simple...
Veganism has been touted since the '60s countercultural revolution, and by now it has become a 'respectable' option - mostly because it has been on the edges of the collective consciousness for the last 50 years. I can remember when I first tried veganism in the late 60s - the scorn and ridicule was every bit as intense as anything paleo/primal has to put up with.
Paleo/primal, OTOH, has only been in the mainstream perception for the last 5-10 years (I know it has been around longer). The reaction to it is pretty much what the response to veganism was in the '70s.
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When you consider that paleo/primal takes dead aim at the main food addictions of the 20th century - you know how addicts respond when you try to pull the monkey off their back.
Indeed. There hasn't been enough time for it to sink into the public's subconscious. The nature of the Internet and the Greater Internet F*ckwad Theory don't help matters, but being "new" certainly plays a large part in the vitriol.0 -
From what I've seen, it's far less rampant against the vegans than it is against the Paleos. I've seen more than a few "hey, I'm vegan and looking for vegan friends!" type of posts that go completely untouched by the trolls, but do the same with Paleo and for every "hey, I'm Paleo, too!" there's a page's worth of trolling.
The reason for THAT is actually pretty simple...
Veganism has been touted since the '60s countercultural revolution, and by now it has become a 'respectable' option - mostly because it has been on the edges of the collective consciousness for the last 50 years. I can remember when I first tried veganism in the late 60s - the scorn and ridicule was every bit as intense as anything paleo/primal has to put up with.
Paleo/primal, OTOH, has only been in the mainstream perception for the last 5-10 years (I know it has been around longer). The reaction to it is pretty much what the response to veganism was in the '70s.
----
When you consider that paleo/primal takes dead aim at the main food addictions of the 20th century - you know how addicts respond when you try to pull the monkey off their back.
Indeed. There hasn't been enough time for it to sink into the public's subconscious. The nature of the Internet and the Greater Internet F*ckwad Theory don't help matters, but being "new" certainly plays a large part in the vitriol.
While I totally agree with the above, it makes me giggle to think of a Paleo lifestyle as "new". Eating whole foods as provided by nature (I know our whole foods are different these days than what my ancestors were eating) is the oldest human diet around. However, the way the label is sometimes used definitely causes confusion. We are going to see more and more processed foods coming out labelled "Paleo" as a marketing strategy. Everybody seems to be picking apart the stupid little details instead of grasping the simplicity of the Paleo concept as a whole.0 -
While I totally agree with the above, it makes me giggle to think of a Paleo lifestyle as "new". Eating whole foods as provided by nature (I know our whole foods are different these days than what my ancestors were eating) is the oldest human diet around. However, the was the label is sometimes used definitely causes confusion. We are going to see more and more processed foods coming out labelled "Paleo" as a marketing strategy. Everybody seems to be picking apart the stupid little details instead of grasping the simplicity of the Paleo concept as a whole.
Yep. I really think we need a new name for it, if for no other reason than to find one better embodies the whole foods, non-processed aspect of it (though I wish we didn't need it, because we didn't used to need it, it was just how people ate). That's actually why I generally refer to the family of ways of eating currently known as "Paleo" more as "whole foods based diets" or something similar. I've found it helps avoid attracting Paleo-bashers and keeps the focus on the primary part that matters -- whole foods.
And yeah, it is funny that it's often seen as a "new" thing, when it's the oldest way of eating for our species. Unfortunately, we as a species have systematically removed ourselves from our natural roots, so "how people eat" is no longer even remotely in line with what Paleo is trying to get back to and how most of us as a species used to eat.0 -
I feel a little late to this party but this morning I saw Nutmeg's post and the swarm of magpies that were attacking. Honestly those guys have nothing to offer anyone, not a civil bone in their bodies and no game in their arguments. They just like to hear themselves talk.0
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I don't agree that everyone should agree with everyone's choice of diet/lifestyle. Some people aren't going to agree with the Paleo/Primal way and that's absolutely fine, but when they go beyond constructive criticism and ridicule other people it's a sure sign of their own insecurities.
There is no point engaging with this type of person, they offer nothing but negativity in a place that is meant to help & inspire people.0 -
It's also astounding how little the people actually know about the premises of Paleo. Most of the ridicule is based off of what essentially amounts to rumors and "my cousin's father-in-law's uncle's grandson's wife's mom tried it once, and she explained to her who said to him, who told me that..." type of thing.
Their strawmen are being built on strawmen so much they have strawmen totem poles now.
:noway: :grumble:0 -
What boggles my mind is the fact that people quote "IIFYM" as a reason to eat junk. Take a step back and think about who sets your macros?!? The Pope? George Clooney??
No- you do! It's the ultimate cop-out. You set your own macros to be whatever you want it to be, so of course you can find a way to finagle pizza and pop in to it. To me saying, "whatever, IIFYM" is like saying that you aren't a free-thinking being who has the option to make decisions and set your macros to a ratio that won't give you diabetes.
Technically cigarettes fit in to my macros, that doesn't mean I shouldn't do my research, find out how they affect my health and make an educated decision on whether or not cigarettes are fit for consumption (even if they don't really affect my protein, carb or fat intake each day)
*Sigh*0
This discussion has been closed.