conscience protection
Regmama
Posts: 399 Member
What do you think, when it comes to healthcare, should companies (who provide insurance for their empoyees), healthcare providers, pharmacists, etc. have the legal right for conscience protection?
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Replies
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What is conscience protection?0
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Should this be "contraception" perhaps?0
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ok I copied this from wikipedia, should clear it up for anyone like myself that didn't know haha.
Conscience clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against0 -
This is what I am referring to in addition to requiring religious institutions to cover contraception in the insurance plans they provide for their employees.ok I copied this from wikipedia, should clear it up for anyone like myself that didn't know haha.
Conscience clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against0 -
Should this be "contraception" perhaps?
^^^^This0 -
No.0
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This is what I am referring to in addition to requiring religious institutions to cover contraception in the insurance plans they provide for their employees.ok I copied this from wikipedia, should clear it up for anyone like myself that didn't know haha.
Conscience clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against
I believe that's 2 different arguments.
a) conscience clauses may give someone a legal right to their beliefs, but generally state and federal laws allow an employer to state that because of such reservations, a person may be unfit for the job for which they are applying.
b) I believe contraception is just one area where this would apply, and yes. I do believe this should be a covered option mandated by the government. In fact, I believe contraception and voluntarily sterilization (not reversal) should be available to any individual in the childbearing ages.0 -
Nope.
That's be like me working at Baskin Robbins and refusing to serve ice cream because it's fattening.
If you're conscience / religious beliefs/ whatever interfere with you performing your duties in any industry, then get a job in a different industry.0 -
Nope.
That's be like me working at Baskin Robbins and refusing to serve ice cream because it's fattening.
If you're conscience / religious beliefs/ whatever interfere with you performing your duties in any industry, then get a job in a different industry.
So let's say that you spend years upon years in medical school/nursing school/pharmacy school, with the idea of helping people to stay or become healthy, to heal and not harm them (see Hippocratic oath) and then the government says one day, after you have been in the business for some time that you MUST be willing to perform/assist/support abortions or be punished or banned from your profession. So you just have to leave your profession and start over?0 -
Or on that note, that Catholic hospitals have to give out contraception, perform sterilization surgery, or else close their doors?Nope.
That's be like me working at Baskin Robbins and refusing to serve ice cream because it's fattening.
If you're conscience / religious beliefs/ whatever interfere with you performing your duties in any industry, then get a job in a different industry.
So let's say that you spend years upon years in medical school/nursing school/pharmacy school, with the idea of helping people to stay or become healthy, to heal and not harm them (see Hippocratic oath) and then the government says one day, after you have been in the business for some time that you MUST be willing to perform/assist/support abortions or be punished or banned from your profession. So you just have to leave your profession and start over?0 -
What do you think, when it comes to healthcare, should companies (who provide insurance for their empoyees), healthcare providers, pharmacists, etc. have the legal right for conscience protection?
Absolutely!0 -
Yes and no. If I go to a pharmacist for any contraception, and he decides that it's against his religious beliefs, he has the right to refuse. But I have the right to call his manager and say that I will be taking my business else where. In a free market system, this guy won't have a job for long. I guess he can go be a pharmacist at a convent or monestary where people don't have sex if that suits him. Because as long as I have money and a business wants my money, then provide the services I want or I'll find someone else. So I guess what I'm saying that these people who think should only have conscience protection when their beliefs correlate with th businesses. I don't want to have to bounce around from Walgreens to Walgreens because some bible thumper wants to sit in judgement. of me based on his interpretation of a Bible written thousands of years ago by some middle eastern goat herders.0
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So let's say that you spend years upon years in medical school/nursing school/pharmacy school, with the idea of helping people to stay or become healthy, to heal and not harm them (see Hippocratic oath) and then the government says one day, after you have been in the business for some time that you MUST be willing to perform/assist/support abortions or be punished or banned from your profession. So you just have to leave your profession and start over?
I would.0 -
Yes and no. If I go to a pharmacist for any contraception, and he decides that it's against his religious beliefs, he has the right to refuse. But I have the right to call his manager and say that I will be taking my business else where. In a free market system, this guy won't have a job for long. I guess he can go be a pharmacist at a convent or monestary where people don't have sex if that suits him. Because as long as I have money and a business wants my money, then provide the services I want or I'll find someone else. So I guess what I'm saying that these people who think should only have conscience protection when their beliefs correlate with th businesses. I don't want to have to bounce around from Walgreens to Walgreens because some bible thumper wants to sit in judgement. of me based on his interpretation of a Bible written thousands of years ago by some middle eastern goat herders.
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Yes and no. If I go to a pharmacist for any contraception, and he decides that it's against his religious beliefs, he has the right to refuse. But I have the right to call his manager and say that I will be taking my business else where. In a free market system, this guy won't have a job for long. I guess he can go be a pharmacist at a convent or monestary where people don't have sex if that suits him. Because as long as I have money and a business wants my money, then provide the services I want or I'll find someone else. So I guess what I'm saying that these people who think should only have conscience protection when their beliefs correlate with th businesses. I don't want to have to bounce around from Walgreens to Walgreens because some bible thumper wants to sit in judgement. of me based on his interpretation of a Bible written thousands of years ago by some middle eastern goat herders.
I've never heard of a pharmacist refusing to dispense contraception because of religious beliefs. Believe it or not, Christians can work in places other than a convent or monastery without compromising their morals and values.0 -
Or on that note, that Catholic hospitals have to give out contraception, perform sterilization surgery, or else close their doors?
I think it's horrible that Catholic hospitals have to provide these services.0 -
Nope.
That's be like me working at Baskin Robbins and refusing to serve ice cream because it's fattening.
If you're conscience / religious beliefs/ whatever interfere with you performing your duties in any industry, then get a job in a different industry.
So let's say that you spend years upon years in medical school/nursing school/pharmacy school, with the idea of helping people to stay or become healthy, to heal and not harm them (see Hippocratic oath) and then the government says one day, after you have been in the business for some time that you MUST be willing to perform/assist/support abortions or be punished or banned from your profession. So you just have to leave your profession and start over?
Forgive me if this is not the case in the US, but I'd be surprised if any reputable Med/Nursing/Pharmacology School would allow someone to graduate as a fully qualified medical professional without the knowledge to perform/assist/support abortions, where abortion is a legal operation that is in fairly high demand. If compelled to participate, you might have to make the choice to abandon your chosen profession if that was what your conscience dictated. The same could apply to barristers, for example, if a government decreed that they HAD to defend violent criminals, rather than only prosecuting, or working in a non-criminal area of the law.0 -
Yes and no. If I go to a pharmacist for any contraception, and he decides that it's against his religious beliefs, he has the right to refuse. But I have the right to call his manager and say that I will be taking my business else where. In a free market system, this guy won't have a job for long. I guess he can go be a pharmacist at a convent or monestary where people don't have sex if that suits him. Because as long as I have money and a business wants my money, then provide the services I want or I'll find someone else. So I guess what I'm saying that these people who think should only have conscience protection when their beliefs correlate with th businesses. I don't want to have to bounce around from Walgreens to Walgreens because some bible thumper wants to sit in judgement. of me based on his interpretation of a Bible written thousands of years ago by some middle eastern goat herders.
First of all I don't believe they are sitting in judgement of you, they are just following their own conscience. Secondly, let me know which business it is that's doing that and I'll gladly take my business there.0 -
I have the right to choose the services I want. Hospitals, pharmacies, and other medical organizations have the right to decide what services they will offer and and how to make money. Employees have the right to refuse certain things because it goes against their morals. Businesses have the right to fire them for it. Those employees have the right to form their own businesses and decide what morality they want to have.
Here's a story, slightly related. I love Chick Fila. If you don't know what that is, it's a christian ran fast food place where I live that doesn't have burgers, but different chicken sandwiches. I can get a grilled chicken club, a side of fruit, and an un-sweet Ice tea and it's under 500 calories. Although their prices are a little steep for fast food, the facilities are clean, the staff amazingly polite and friendly, the food good.
As a business, they have decided not to be open on Sundays, the Sabbath. That is their decision as a business. Now if they were open on Sundays, like Mc Donald's and one of their employees requested to never work sundays, ok they can request it. But if they refused, they can be fired. Same as any medical professional refusing what his hospital/pharmacy wants him to do. The end.0 -
Let's stick with the Chic-Fil-A example. Say an employee got hired while the policy was still that they are closed in Sunday (which I love, BTW). Then Chic-Fil-A changes their mind and wants their employees to work in Sundays. It would be nice if they had insurance to protect them from having to choose losing their jobs or doing something they aren't comfortable with religiously.0
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Let's stick with the Chic-Fil-A example. Say an employee got hired while the policy was still that they are closed in Sunday (which I love, BTW). Then Chic-Fil-A changes their mind and wants their employees to work in Sundays. It would be nice if they had insurance to protect them from having to choose losing their jobs or doing something they aren't comfortable with religiously.
The employees have the right to request it and try not to work. But if the business can't accomadate and this employee becomes a liability, then they have to go. Would this happen in this case. Maybe, maybe not. If you are a valuable employee, maybe they try and work something out. It's a complicated issue because I believe that employees do have rights, but so does a business owner. Who wins, who's rights are more important? I for one don't know. I just figure if I'm the boss, and I want to sell condoms, and one of my employees doesn't, they have to go. A persons religon or non-religion doesn't change the fact that I'm the boss and what I is what goes (legally of course).0 -
In the 1960s desegregation happened in the schools. Should a racist teacher have the right to refuse to teach black kids? No one just wakes up one day and says "I think I'll be a pharmacist." then goes and gets a job at CVS. They know before, during, and after their training if they have a problem with working with certain people or things. If they can't do all aspects of their job then they need to get a different job. If they choose that job then they need to be prepared for all aspects of it.
Abortions aren't performed by heart surgeons or podiatrists. If someone doesn't ever want to have to perform an abortion then they should go into an area of medicine that doesn't deal with them. As for Catholic hospitals - they need to follow the law. They also need to see where their money is coming from. If they receive any government funding then they lose the ability to decide who they will and won't treat and for what. That said, I've never heard of anyone having a non medically necessary abortion at a hospital unless there was something seriously wrong with the fetus. IMO, it's cruel to force a mother to carry a non viable fetus for another 3-6 months simply because YOU don't believe in abortion. That's not very Christ-like.0 -
Let's stick with the Chic-Fil-A example. Say an employee got hired while the policy was still that they are closed in Sunday (which I love, BTW). Then Chic-Fil-A changes their mind and wants their employees to work in Sundays. It would be nice if they had insurance to protect them from having to choose losing their jobs or doing something they aren't comfortable with religiously.
The employees have the right to request it and try not to work. But if the business can't accomadate and this employee becomes a liability, then they have to go. Would this happen in this case. Maybe, maybe not. If you are a valuable employee, maybe they try and work something out. It's a complicated issue because I believe that employees do have rights, but so does a business owner. Who wins, who's rights are more important? I for one don't know. I just figure if I'm the boss, and I want to sell condoms, and one of my employees doesn't, they have to go. A persons religon or non-religion doesn't change the fact that I'm the boss and what I is what goes (legally of course).
Agreed with Adrian.
I'm also a former Chick-Fil-A employee, and loved that they were closed on Sundays, but for different reasons. It meant I always had a guaranteed day off. :laugh: It also meant I was an atheist working in a company very well-known for its Christian leanings, and I had to respect that. If it got to a point that they were doing things I didn't agree with so much so that I just had to leave, then I'd have left. Sure, I did quit that job, but not because I disagreed with the fact that they're a very Christian company.
If you're a pharmacist working at Walgreens or CVS or some other big-name pharmacy, and your company itself is not against contraception, then you need to put your big girl/big boy pants on and suck it up and do your job. I don't agree with diet pills, but hey, if it was my job to dispense them, then I'd do it. If someone is against contraception, then why take that job in the first place? I mean yeah, if someone is against them and THEY own a pharmacy, then obviously the stuff wouldn't even be sold or distributed there. But if it's sold and distributed there, then you need to sell or distribute it.0 -
Some states have laws that even privately owned pharmacies have to offer contraception if the perscription is requested to be filled. That's what I'm talking about when it comes to conscience protection, laws that require even privately owned pharmacists to go against their consciences.Let's stick with the Chic-Fil-A example. Say an employee got hired while the policy was still that they are closed in Sunday (which I love, BTW). Then Chic-Fil-A changes their mind and wants their employees to work in Sundays. It would be nice if they had insurance to protect them from having to choose losing their jobs or doing something they aren't comfortable with religiously.
The employees have the right to request it and try not to work. But if the business can't accomadate and this employee becomes a liability, then they have to go. Would this happen in this case. Maybe, maybe not. If you are a valuable employee, maybe they try and work something out. It's a complicated issue because I believe that employees do have rights, but so does a business owner. Who wins, who's rights are more important? I for one don't know. I just figure if I'm the boss, and I want to sell condoms, and one of my employees doesn't, they have to go. A persons religon or non-religion doesn't change the fact that I'm the boss and what I is what goes (legally of course).
Agreed with Adrian.
I'm also a former Chick-Fil-A employee, and loved that they were closed on Sundays, but for different reasons. It meant I always had a guaranteed day off. :laugh: It also meant I was an atheist working in a company very well-known for its Christian leanings, and I had to respect that. If it got to a point that they were doing things I didn't agree with so much so that I just had to leave, then I'd have left. Sure, I did quit that job, but not because I disagreed with the fact that they're a very Christian company.
If you're a pharmacist working at Walgreens or CVS or some other big-name pharmacy, and your company itself is not against contraception, then you need to put your big girl/big boy pants on and suck it up and do your job. I don't agree with diet pills, but hey, if it was my job to dispense them, then I'd do it. If someone is against contraception, then why take that job in the first place? I mean yeah, if someone is against them and THEY own a pharmacy, then obviously the stuff wouldn't even be sold or distributed there. But if it's sold and distributed there, then you need to sell or distribute it.0 -
Some states have laws that even privately owned pharmacies have to offer contraception if the perscription is requested to be filled. That's what I'm talking about when it comes to conscience protection, laws that require even privately owned pharmacists to go against their consciences.Let's stick with the Chic-Fil-A example. Say an employee got hired while the policy was still that they are closed in Sunday (which I love, BTW). Then Chic-Fil-A changes their mind and wants their employees to work in Sundays. It would be nice if they had insurance to protect them from having to choose losing their jobs or doing something they aren't comfortable with religiously.
The employees have the right to request it and try not to work. But if the business can't accomadate and this employee becomes a liability, then they have to go. Would this happen in this case. Maybe, maybe not. If you are a valuable employee, maybe they try and work something out. It's a complicated issue because I believe that employees do have rights, but so does a business owner. Who wins, who's rights are more important? I for one don't know. I just figure if I'm the boss, and I want to sell condoms, and one of my employees doesn't, they have to go. A persons religon or non-religion doesn't change the fact that I'm the boss and what I is what goes (legally of course).
Agreed with Adrian.
I'm also a former Chick-Fil-A employee, and loved that they were closed on Sundays, but for different reasons. It meant I always had a guaranteed day off. :laugh: It also meant I was an atheist working in a company very well-known for its Christian leanings, and I had to respect that. If it got to a point that they were doing things I didn't agree with so much so that I just had to leave, then I'd have left. Sure, I did quit that job, but not because I disagreed with the fact that they're a very Christian company.
If you're a pharmacist working at Walgreens or CVS or some other big-name pharmacy, and your company itself is not against contraception, then you need to put your big girl/big boy pants on and suck it up and do your job. I don't agree with diet pills, but hey, if it was my job to dispense them, then I'd do it. If someone is against contraception, then why take that job in the first place? I mean yeah, if someone is against them and THEY own a pharmacy, then obviously the stuff wouldn't even be sold or distributed there. But if it's sold and distributed there, then you need to sell or distribute it.
Ah, okay. Well in that case, no. If I'm a pharmacist, opening up my own private pharmacy, then I should be allowed to pick and choose what I want to sell and distribute. I probably won't make a lot of money, but it's still my business and no one else's. And I would expect the same of any employee I hired. So that is something I do not agree with.0 -
Personally, I feel it should be up to each business. We all know that the major pharmacy chains (CVS, Walgreens, etc) will continue to dispense just about any legal medication that they can, simply to continue maximizing profits. It's what large business do. If a smaller independent pharmacy has a policy of not prescribing contraception, etc. I think that should be their right to choose what to sell and what not to sell.
If someone is working at one of those major pharmacies and does not want to dispense contraception, perhaps they should find a different position. They can avoid compromising their morals by working somewhere else.
Side note that is somewhat related, I think:
I have a friend who recently graduated with a Master's in Mechanical Engineering. He's been offered a few jobs, but all with companies which (at least in part) deal with manufacture and/or design of weapons and explosives. He is morally opposed to using his own work and knowledge to contribute to war and violence, so he turned both offers down so far. He's currently working part-time as a math tutor, because he's not willing to compromise his beliefs for a paycheck... And personally, I think it's pretty honorable of him to do so.0 -
I don't know why someone would take a job where they can't do all the work.
Sadly in many small towns womens needs would not be met.0 -
Where is the line drawn for those who oppose conscience protection? Please read this (it's a quick read regarding a NJ lawsuit about this topic)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/new-jersey-nurses-charge-religious-discrimination-over-hospital-abortion-policy/2011/11/15/gIQAydgm2N_story.html?hpid=z3&tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Wake Up Call NJ&utm_campaign=Wake Up Call0 -
I guess I think that if people feel that they can refuse to do certain aspects of their job, then their employees should be able to terminate their employment.
Although in my state, that wouldn't be an issue anyway. Nebraska is an 'at will' state, meaning that you can be fired for any reason or no reason at all, and that's fully within the employer's rights.0 -
The line is drawn when you don't want to do your job. Either do it or find a different profession. Should a nurse who is opposed to smoking be able to refuse to treat a cancer patient? Or opposed to adding to the population of an already overpopulated world and refuse to care for a woman in labor?Where is the line drawn for those who oppose conscience protection? Please read this (it's a quick read regarding a NJ lawsuit about this topic)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/new-jersey-nurses-charge-religious-discrimination-over-hospital-abortion-policy/2011/11/15/gIQAydgm2N_story.html?hpid=z3&tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Wake Up Call NJ&utm_campaign=Wake Up Call0
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