conscience protection
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Another being the lack of giving 100% of onesself in marriage by withholding one's fertility (by one or both partners). Also it is disrespectful of the dignity of the complete person.Whoa! Hold on! "Contraception is so dangerous for marriage"??? :huh: What? How do you figure that?
One reason is the Catholic church teaches that contraception puts a wall between the married couple and God. It's excluding God from the relationship by not being open to having children. A marriage should have God at the center, and not doing so can hurt the sacramental marriage bond. I realize this is not a popular belief (even for many Christians), but that is the explanation on that one.0 -
One reason is the Catholic church teaches that contraception puts a wall between the married couple and God. It's excluding God from the relationship by not being open to having children. A marriage should have God at the center, and not doing so can hurt the sacramental marriage bond. I realize this is not a popular belief (even for many Christians), but that is the explanation on that one.Another being the lack of giving 100% of onesself in marriage by withholding one's fertility (by one or both partners). Also it is disrespectful of the dignity of the complete person.
Thanks for adding that. :flowerforyou:0 -
Also, doesn't every city/county have a health department, anyway? Where contraception is FREE and/or based off of your income?
There ARE such clinics available, although not in every county. They are called "Planned Parenthood" and they have been under unrelenting assault by the right wing for decades.
You do understand this is the United States we're talking about, right? Where a major political party to dedicated to a war on women for daring to even HAVE any sexual feelings (unless it's one of their mistresses) or daring to have any say over what happens to their bodies. A party that sees health care as a "privilege" reserved only for those who can afford it, a party that is determined to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on "abstinence only" education that has been proven ineffective in study after study after study.....
It would be easier to find a tea bagger who could spell than it would be to find enough political support to establish responsible community health centers that could address these issues rationally.
I'm very well aware of Planned Parenthood. I get their emails, I subscribe to them, I like them, and I went to them for years. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the local health departments in every county. Or at least, I THOUGHT every county had a health department. My own county has several. In fact, my teeny tiny little town has one. Every other county I've lived in throughout the East coast of the U.S., and some in the mid-west, had them. I guess I just assume that every county has one.
Also, you're throwing way too much political bias my way, and I'm not even sure why. Especially when I agree with a lot of what you say. This country is almost equally divided, though, IMO, in regards to sex.
All I'm saying is, no one SHOULD have the right to tell a business owner what they must supply. If they're given government funding, then yes. If they're doing it 100% on their own somehow, then by all means, I don't feel anyone has a right to force them to carry something, just because someone else wants it.
Sorry--I was using your statement as a "booster" to go off on my own--I realize when you do that, there is the risk that it appears you are going back to the original commenter. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I was actually being sarcastic and using your eminently reasonable and rational position as a contrast against the polarized background of one of our political parties that makes rational compromise impossible.0 -
Please rationally explain why we sould support the intentional elimination of another human?
It would be easier to find a tea bagger who could spell than it would be to find enough political support to establish responsible community health centers that could address these issues rationally.
I think you are creating a false argument in your choice of terms.
I respect your right to follow your own religion, but I don't subscribe to it. Not a punctuation mark of it do I subscribe to. Therefore, I am not bound by your sectarian projection of 'human" onto an embryo.
You might disagree with my position by 1000%--but it is a rational position that is based on moral and ethical principles that are every bit as sincere and thoughtful as yours. If you were willing, we could even have a respectful discussion that I suspect would find a number of points of agreement.
But if you insist on characterizing my views as "not caring about humans" or "baby killing", etc, well...we probably aren't going to get along.0 -
They can absolutely choose what to sell or not sell. But just like a Hindu butcher who won't deal with beef, they are pretty stupid to choose to open that business. They're cutting their own throat by not selling everything there is a demand for.
As a side issue, if someone is so adamant against abortion that they won't tend to a patient before or after the procedure or sell the morning after pill, etc then shouldn't' they also not sell birth control pills at all? They can be abortifacients too. For that matter, if they are already up on their high horse they probably shouldn't sell any sort of birth control product to someone who isn't married. I'd think someone that rigid in their morality that they want to inflict it on everyone else is probably also against unmarried sex too. And if they aren't, well they are a bit of a hypocrite. So now we have a pharmacy that doesn't sell the morning after pill, birth control pills, depo, Viagra, condoms, etc. We should probably throw in anything that cures or treats and STD too. So you end up with a pharmacy that just removed a very large part of any potential profits. Give up the pharmacy and open a Christian bookstore if you want to impose your religion on your clientele.
Actually...in my area, we have a LOT of Hindu butcher shops and restaurants that are owned by Hindu people, who do not serve beef, and they do exceptionally well. We also have a lot of...Halal, I think it's called, butcher shops and grocers, who also do well. Should everyone just gang up on them and start forcing their views on them, and demanding they start carrying everything they want, regardless of these people's beliefs? Also, they're not taking a hit on profits. They are busy, fast places, because they're in high demand, due to the high amount of Hindu and Muslim people in this area.
I'm also failing to see how someone opening up their own little private pharmacy, that does not wish to sell contraceptives, is pushing their beliefs on you or anyone else. Simply do not go there. Problem solved. They aren't aiming for "clientele" that want that stuff, obviously. Do you drive past Christian bookstores or churches or synagogues or temples or religious parades and become enraged that they're pushing their beliefs on you?0 -
I'm also failing to see how someone opening up their own little private pharmacy, that does not wish to sell contraceptives, is pushing their beliefs on you or anyone else. Simply do not go there. Problem solved. They aren't aiming for "clientele" that want that stuff, obviously. Do you drive past Christian bookstores or churches or synagogues or temples or religious parades and become enraged that they're pushing their beliefs on you
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ok I copied this from wikipedia, should clear it up for anyone like myself that didn't know haha.
Conscience clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against
This is so wrong that I can't even believe it exists! Only in America.. :noway:0 -
Great. Good for them. They have a clientielle. Pharmacies who don't want to sell certain legal drugs can open in areas where ther is a high clientelle of fundies or old people and they might, maybe still be able to stay open. I still say it's a stupid choice to go into a career where you discriminate against the majority population unless you are going to bill yourself as a "Christian" pharmacy. To just say "Pharmacy" and then turn people away is wrong. You aren't a regular pharmacy just as the Halal butcher isn't a regular butcher and a Christian Bookstore isn't going to carry Twilight. Let the people know what sort of business you are running. I know I'd be mroe than a bit ticked if I'd been patronizing a pharmacy for my son's breathing medication, and some OTC only to find out that they are that sort of place. If they called themselves a "Christian Pharmacy" I'd know not to give them any money in the first place.They can absolutely choose what to sell or not sell. But just like a Hindu butcher who won't deal with beef, they are pretty stupid to choose to open that business. They're cutting their own throat by not selling everything there is a demand for.
As a side issue, if someone is so adamant against abortion that they won't tend to a patient before or after the procedure or sell the morning after pill, etc then shouldn't' they also not sell birth control pills at all? They can be abortifacients too. For that matter, if they are already up on their high horse they probably shouldn't sell any sort of birth control product to someone who isn't married. I'd think someone that rigid in their morality that they want to inflict it on everyone else is probably also against unmarried sex too. And if they aren't, well they are a bit of a hypocrite. So now we have a pharmacy that doesn't sell the morning after pill, birth control pills, depo, Viagra, condoms, etc. We should probably throw in anything that cures or treats and STD too. So you end up with a pharmacy that just removed a very large part of any potential profits. Give up the pharmacy and open a Christian bookstore if you want to impose your religion on your clientele.
Actually...in my area, we have a LOT of Hindu butcher shops and restaurants that are owned by Hindu people, who do not serve beef, and they do exceptionally well. We also have a lot of...Halal, I think it's called, butcher shops and grocers, who also do well. Should everyone just gang up on them and start forcing their views on them, and demanding they start carrying everything they want, regardless of these people's beliefs? Also, they're not taking a hit on profits. They are busy, fast places, because they're in high demand, due to the high amount of Hindu and Muslim people in this area.
I'm also failing to see how someone opening up their own little private pharmacy, that does not wish to sell contraceptives, is pushing their beliefs on you or anyone else. Simply do not go there. Problem solved. They aren't aiming for "clientele" that want that stuff, obviously. Do you drive past Christian bookstores or churches or synagogues or temples or religious parades and become enraged that they're pushing their beliefs on you?0 -
ok I copied this from wikipedia, should clear it up for anyone like myself that didn't know haha.
Conscience clauses are clauses in laws in some parts of the United States which permit pharmacists, physicians, and other providers of health care not to provide certain medical services for reasons of religion or conscience. Those who choose not to provide services may not be disciplined or discriminated against
This is so wrong that I can't even believe it exists! Only in America.. :noway:
If you choose to go into a career field and don't want to service your own clientielle then you should have picked a different career. Should a racist teacher be allowed to refuse to teach black kids? No. You picked your job now do it.0 -
Great. Good for them. They have a clientielle. Pharmacies who don't want to sell certain legal drugs can open in areas where ther is a high clientelle of fundies or old people and they might, maybe still be able to stay open. I still say it's a stupid choice to go into a career where you discriminate against the majority population unless you are going to bill yourself as a "Christian" pharmacy. To just say "Pharmacy" and then turn people away is wrong. You aren't a regular pharmacy just as the Halal butcher isn't a regular butcher and a Christian Bookstore isn't going to carry Twilight. Let the people know what sort of business you are running. I know I'd be mroe than a bit ticked if I'd been patronizing a pharmacy for my son's breathing medication, and some OTC only to find out that they are that sort of place. If they called themselves a "Christian Pharmacy" I'd know not to give them any money in the first place.They can absolutely choose what to sell or not sell. But just like a Hindu butcher who won't deal with beef, they are pretty stupid to choose to open that business. They're cutting their own throat by not selling everything there is a demand for.
As a side issue, if someone is so adamant against abortion that they won't tend to a patient before or after the procedure or sell the morning after pill, etc then shouldn't' they also not sell birth control pills at all? They can be abortifacients too. For that matter, if they are already up on their high horse they probably shouldn't sell any sort of birth control product to someone who isn't married. I'd think someone that rigid in their morality that they want to inflict it on everyone else is probably also against unmarried sex too. And if they aren't, well they are a bit of a hypocrite. So now we have a pharmacy that doesn't sell the morning after pill, birth control pills, depo, Viagra, condoms, etc. We should probably throw in anything that cures or treats and STD too. So you end up with a pharmacy that just removed a very large part of any potential profits. Give up the pharmacy and open a Christian bookstore if you want to impose your religion on your clientele.
Actually...in my area, we have a LOT of Hindu butcher shops and restaurants that are owned by Hindu people, who do not serve beef, and they do exceptionally well. We also have a lot of...Halal, I think it's called, butcher shops and grocers, who also do well. Should everyone just gang up on them and start forcing their views on them, and demanding they start carrying everything they want, regardless of these people's beliefs? Also, they're not taking a hit on profits. They are busy, fast places, because they're in high demand, due to the high amount of Hindu and Muslim people in this area.
I'm also failing to see how someone opening up their own little private pharmacy, that does not wish to sell contraceptives, is pushing their beliefs on you or anyone else. Simply do not go there. Problem solved. They aren't aiming for "clientele" that want that stuff, obviously. Do you drive past Christian bookstores or churches or synagogues or temples or religious parades and become enraged that they're pushing their beliefs on you?
So I guess if I open a bakery, I need to put a sign up that says "This is an atheist-run establishment" as a disclaimer? So that no one tries to order cakes for religious-themed celebrations?
You say it's a stupid choice--that's your opinion. Personally I feel it's a non-lucrative choice, depending on where they're at, too. But it still should be THEIR CHOICE. And they aren't discriminating against anyone. Choosing not to sell something is not discrimination, nor is it them forcing their beliefs. YOU are choosing to look at it that way. If they have a sign that says "Atheists not welcomed" or "No Muslims allowed"...then that is discrimination. It's also not their fault that you dislike Christians to the point that you wouldn't patronize their business should you find out their religious affiliation. All of those = your own personal issues, not theirs. It's not like they would be holding a gun to your head and telling you that you MUST get your son's medication there, or you MUST buy your over-the-counter items there.0 -
If you are going to refuse to sell cakes for Christmas, baptisms, 1st Communions, etc it would be nice to let people know that before they assume you are are just a regular bakery and they won't need to make a special trip somewhere else to get what they are looking for.So I guess if I open a bakery, I need to put a sign up that says "This is an atheist-run establishment" as a disclaimer? So that no one tries to order cakes for religious-themed celebrations?
You say it's a stupid choice--that's your opinion. Personally I feel it's a non-lucrative choice, depending on where they're at, too. But it still should be THEIR CHOICE. And they aren't discriminating against anyone. Choosing not to sell something is not discrimination, nor is it them forcing their beliefs. YOU are choosing to look at it that way. If they have a sign that says "Atheists not welcomed" or "No Muslims allowed"...then that is discrimination. It's also not their fault that you dislike Christians to the point that you wouldn't patronize their business should you find out their religious affiliation. All of those = your own personal issues, not theirs. It's not like they would be holding a gun to your head and telling you that you MUST get your son's medication there, or you MUST buy your over-the-counter items there.
I don't dislike Christians either. I am a Christian. Not to the level that some people are and I've been told I'm not a "real" Christian but I was born and raised Catholic. My grandparents were very Catholic - like "These are our good friends the Cardinal and the Bishop, and this is our nephew the priest." Catholic. I just don't like it when Christians have a negative impact on my life, the lives of people I care about, or even the lives of total strangers simply because of their beliefs. You don't like gay marriage, fine. Don't marry a a gay person but don't try to say someone else can't. Don't like abortion? Fine. Don't get a job at a clinic that performs them. Don't like to sell birth control? Fine, don't become a pharmacist.
Really, where would it end? Should a racist teacher be allowed to refuse to teach black kids? (The Bible was used to justify racism for a long time.) Should a Muslim doctor be able to refuse to treat women? Should a Mormon who works in a clothing store be able to refuse to sell pants to women? If those people work for someone else should they be able to keep their jobs?
You want to open your own business and run it like that, fine, go ahead. It would be nice if you let people know that you didn't want their business if they didn't believe as you do though. But when you are an employee you do your job. If the company you work for sells the morning after pill and you don't want to sell it then go work for someone who doesn't sell it or open your own "Christian" Pharmacy. But you do not have the right to refuse to do the job you were hired to do and still expect to keep that job.0 -
How about Muslim cab drivers that refuse to drive you somewhere if you have a bottle of alcohol with you? As in you bought it at the grocery store or something (not drinking it---closed, sealed bottle), but the simple fact that it's alcohol and against their religion, so they won't let you ride in the cab. I've read about this happening, and I think it's BS personally. Especially at airports, cabs can be a hard thing to acquire if it's busy, so to be refused service because you have a bottle of wine that you bought for dinner or something would be hugely inconvenient and could create a lot of problems for the customer.0
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How about Muslim cab drivers that refuse to drive you somewhere if you have a bottle of alcohol with you? As in you bought it at the grocery store or something (not drinking it---closed, sealed bottle), but the simple fact that it's alcohol and against their religion, so they won't let you ride in the cab. I've read about this happening, and I think it's BS personally. Especially at airports, cabs can be a hard thing to acquire if it's busy, so to be refused service because you have a bottle of wine that you bought for dinner or something would be hugely inconvenient and could create a lot of problems for the customer.
I think you need to identify where you "read" this. A story like this has " internet chain email" written all over it.0 -
Nope, it's true.How about Muslim cab drivers that refuse to drive you somewhere if you have a bottle of alcohol with you? As in you bought it at the grocery store or something (not drinking it---closed, sealed bottle), but the simple fact that it's alcohol and against their religion, so they won't let you ride in the cab. I've read about this happening, and I think it's BS personally. Especially at airports, cabs can be a hard thing to acquire if it's busy, so to be refused service because you have a bottle of wine that you bought for dinner or something would be hugely inconvenient and could create a lot of problems for the customer.
I think you need to identify where you "read" this. A story like this has " internet chain email" written all over it.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=10 -
How about Muslim cab drivers that refuse to drive you somewhere if you have a bottle of alcohol with you? As in you bought it at the grocery store or something (not drinking it---closed, sealed bottle), but the simple fact that it's alcohol and against their religion, so they won't let you ride in the cab. I've read about this happening, and I think it's BS personally. Especially at airports, cabs can be a hard thing to acquire if it's busy, so to be refused service because you have a bottle of wine that you bought for dinner or something would be hugely inconvenient and could create a lot of problems for the customer.
I think you need to identify where you "read" this. A story like this has " internet chain email" written all over it.
Nope, it's true.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=1
I had a feeling that was coming...;-)
Wow.
It doesn't change my opinion, but I just wanted to make sure I was not being "rick-rolled", so to speak, by some internet urban folklore. It reminded me of some the chain emails I sometimes get from other family members full of faux outrage against "evil" muslims.
My feelings towards this are the same as the pharmacy question. The farther you get from your home or your place of worship (figuratively, if not literally), the less absolute your "freedom of religion"--and other personal freedoms as well.
The more your actions occur in public, or the more intertwined they are others, the more the public good trumps your personal preferences.
Obviously, not everything is that black/white, so there will always be disputes and disagreements. These are not inherently bad, because they help us further define the issues.
In this particular case, no, I do not believe that muslim cab drivers have the right to refuse people with dogs or alcohol, I find the protestations of "discrimination" as hollow as I do those christian who do not want to dispense legally prescribed medications.0 -
You don't go to the Doctor for moral advice. That's something that is personal and should be kept to oneself unless asked. There are Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe in blood transfusions. If you needed one, but your doctor was a Jehovah's Witness and denied you that, would that be okay? Could they claim "conscience protection?" Of course not, because it's completely ridiculous, just like denying someone birth control. It's not their body.0
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If you are going to refuse to sell cakes for Christmas, baptisms, 1st Communions, etc it would be nice to let people know that before they assume you are are just a regular bakery and they won't need to make a special trip somewhere else to get what they are looking for.So I guess if I open a bakery, I need to put a sign up that says "This is an atheist-run establishment" as a disclaimer? So that no one tries to order cakes for religious-themed celebrations?
You say it's a stupid choice--that's your opinion. Personally I feel it's a non-lucrative choice, depending on where they're at, too. But it still should be THEIR CHOICE. And they aren't discriminating against anyone. Choosing not to sell something is not discrimination, nor is it them forcing their beliefs. YOU are choosing to look at it that way. If they have a sign that says "Atheists not welcomed" or "No Muslims allowed"...then that is discrimination. It's also not their fault that you dislike Christians to the point that you wouldn't patronize their business should you find out their religious affiliation. All of those = your own personal issues, not theirs. It's not like they would be holding a gun to your head and telling you that you MUST get your son's medication there, or you MUST buy your over-the-counter items there.
I don't dislike Christians either. I am a Christian. Not to the level that some people are and I've been told I'm not a "real" Christian but I was born and raised Catholic. My grandparents were very Catholic - like "These are our good friends the Cardinal and the Bishop, and this is our nephew the priest." Catholic. I just don't like it when Christians have a negative impact on my life, the lives of people I care about, or even the lives of total strangers simply because of their beliefs. You don't like gay marriage, fine. Don't marry a a gay person but don't try to say someone else can't. Don't like abortion? Fine. Don't get a job at a clinic that performs them. Don't like to sell birth control? Fine, don't become a pharmacist.
Really, where would it end? Should a racist teacher be allowed to refuse to teach black kids? (The Bible was used to justify racism for a long time.) Should a Muslim doctor be able to refuse to treat women? Should a Mormon who works in a clothing store be able to refuse to sell pants to women? If those people work for someone else should they be able to keep their jobs?
You want to open your own business and run it like that, fine, go ahead. It would be nice if you let people know that you didn't want their business if they didn't believe as you do though. But when you are an employee you do your job. If the company you work for sells the morning after pill and you don't want to sell it then go work for someone who doesn't sell it or open your own "Christian" Pharmacy. But you do not have the right to refuse to do the job you were hired to do and still expect to keep that job.
I don't care about putting an ad up describing their beliefs...it's their choice.
However, everything you said about "when you are an employee you do your job"...that is EXACTLY what I already said. I'm not disagreeing with that whatsoever. Since I agree.
And again, you can't compare teachers. Teachers are employees. A single teacher does not own/run a school.
Cab drivers, I feel the same as this scenario with the pharmacist. If it's a Muslim-owned cab company, then I feel they do have the right to now allow alcohol in their cabs, if that's their belief and they wish to honor that. It's not like there's a shortage of diverse cab companies. At least nowhere I've seen there is.
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You don't go to the Doctor for moral advice. That's something that is personal and should be kept to oneself unless asked. There are Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe in blood transfusions. If you needed one, but your doctor was a Jehovah's Witness and denied you that, would that be okay? Could they claim "conscience protection?" Of course not, because it's completely ridiculous, just like denying someone birth control. It's not their body.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're already in need of a blood transfusion, wouldn't you be the emergency room? I sincerely doubt a true Jehovah's Witness would even be working there in the first place.0 -
OK Kimmy, I get it now. :laugh: However, in the cases mentioned in the OP and with the nurses, they don't own the business either. They are employees. So they should shut up and do their job, open their own business, or deal with getting fired. The OP and 1 or 2 others (who haven't been back since scenarios that didn't involve Christian beliefs were brought up) seem to think that those employees should be given some sort of legal protection that they can refuse to do part of their job and still be expected to keep their job. That's what I have an issue with.0
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OK Kimmy, I get it now. :laugh: However, in the cases mentioned in the OP and with the nurses, they don't own the business either. They are employees. So they should shut up and do their job, open their own business, or deal with getting fired. The OP and 1 or 2 others (who haven't been back since scenarios that didn't involve Christian beliefs were brought up) seem to think that those employees should be given some sort of legal protection that they can refuse to do part of their job and still be expected to keep their job. That's what I have an issue with.
Why shouldn't people have job protection if refusing to do something that is against their religion IF that was made clear at the time they were hired? If an owner of a pharmacy hires someone knowing their position on selling condoms, for example, and then change their minds later, you don't think it fair that the employee have some type of protection?0 -
No. Welcome to the world of at-will employment.OK Kimmy, I get it now. :laugh: However, in the cases mentioned in the OP and with the nurses, they don't own the business either. They are employees. So they should shut up and do their job, open their own business, or deal with getting fired. The OP and 1 or 2 others (who haven't been back since scenarios that didn't involve Christian beliefs were brought up) seem to think that those employees should be given some sort of legal protection that they can refuse to do part of their job and still be expected to keep their job. That's what I have an issue with.
Why shouldn't people have job protection if refusing to do something that is against their religion IF that was made clear at the time they were hired? If an owner of a pharmacy hires someone knowing their position on selling condoms, for example, and then change their minds later, you don't think it fair that the employee have some type of protection?0 -
No. Welcome to the world of at-will employment.
Yup. I totally get that. Welcome to the world of bottom-line numbers. Welcome to a world of ends justifying means. I realize that's what some companies and some people have come to in this world. I don't have to subscribe to it, though.0 -
But you do subscribe to that. THAT'S exactly what OWS is against. THAT'S the stuff unions want to protect people from. The problem is, you only support them when they affect you or your religious beliefs, not when they affect someone else.
(I realize you haven't said your position on unions but based on your other positions I'm guessing you are against them. Unless you happen to be a teacher. I'd also guess you to be a Republican party line voter. I could be wrong, that's just the perception I've gotten from you based on your words in this group.)0 -
But you do subscribe to that. THAT'S exactly what OWS is against. THAT'S the stuff unions want to protect people from. The problem is, you only support them when they affect you or your religious beliefs, not when they affect someone else.
(I realize you haven't said your position on unions but based on your other positions I'm guessing you are against them. Unless you happen to be a teacher. I'd also guess you to be a Republican party line voter. I could be wrong, that's just the perception I've gotten from you based on your words in this group.)
I do not agree with the actions of the OWS squatters or the way they're going about anything. I don't only support "the stuff" tthat affects my religious beliefs (although that's what this topic thread is about). I do feel strongly about how people stand on their convictions, and OWS people need to go home, take a shower, and go about it differently.
I'm not hard to figure out. I am Catholic, in Catholic education (was a teacher, but now I'm on the administrative side), I'm married to a theologian, and I'm a Republican party line voter (that does NOT mean I'm not disgusted with some Republicans' actions). I am also very active in social justice, and when I was in "Corporate America", I was seen more as the "employee's voice". I left corporate America because I couldn't subscribe to bottom-line numbers, firing people at will, and ends justifying means.0 -
So how do you suggest OWS go about it then? The "take a bath" stuff is stupid "I watch too much Fox "news" BS. There are a few nasties (ditto teabaggers) but most are clean, normal, average citizens. Would you support them if they were all clean cut, protested without tents, and the very few who went to extremes were kicked out? No, I don't think you would. I stand by my previous assertion. You say you want protections but unless you agree with those protections you don't want them.0
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So how do you suggest OWS go about it then? The "take a bath" stuff is stupid "I watch too much Fox "news" BS. There are a few nasties (ditto teabaggers) but most are clean, normal, average citizens. Would you support them if they were all clean cut, protested without tents, and the very few who went to extremes were kicked out? No, I don't think you would. I stand by my previous assertion. You say you want protections but unless you agree with those protections you don't want them.
I'm confused. Are you saying there were some people in the OWS who performed that sexual act and were kicked out?0 -
I meant Tea party. Sometimes I accidentally call them what they originally called themselves. I really do try not to. I was saying that there are some nasty people in the Tea Party as well but no one seems to be upset about them. And certainly no one pepper sprayed, threw flash grenades at, beat, or caused permenent nerve damage to them. IOIYAR and all that (It's OK if you are Republican - in case you weren't already aware of that acronym.)0
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So how do you suggest OWS go about it then? The "take a bath" stuff is stupid "I watch too much Fox "news" BS. There are a few nasties (ditto teabaggers) but most are clean, normal, average citizens. Would you support them if they were all clean cut, protested without tents, and the very few who went to extremes were kicked out? No, I don't think you would. I stand by my previous assertion. You say you want protections but unless you agree with those protections you don't want them.
You are welcome to ask my opinion, but do speak for me. My comment about them needing a shower has to do with being there and seeing some of them, not "Fox News BS". I do not only support protections if I agree with them; that is a false statement.0 -
seem to think that those employees should be given some sort of legal protection that they can refuse to do part of their job and still be expected to keep their job. That's what I have an issue with.
Me too. 0 -
You don't go to the Doctor for moral advice. That's something that is personal and should be kept to oneself unless asked. There are Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe in blood transfusions. If you needed one, but your doctor was a Jehovah's Witness and denied you that, would that be okay? Could they claim "conscience protection?" Of course not, because it's completely ridiculous, just like denying someone birth control. It's not their body.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're already in need of a blood transfusion, wouldn't you be the emergency room? I sincerely doubt a true Jehovah's Witness would even be working there in the first place.
Completely missed the point.0
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